Inclusiveness and Gay Children of God

[Nofear]

Imagine a person with dwarfism being told that in the resurrection their body will be "regular size".
Imagine a person with albinism being told that they will have "regular" skin pigment.
Imagine a person who can't roll their tongue or wiggle their ears being told they now can or can't.
Imagine a polydactyl being told they won't have their sixth finger on the left hand.
Imagine a person with homosexual sexual attraction being told they won't have that kind of sexual attraction anymore.
Imagine a sociopath being told they'll now have regular empathetic reactions in their brain.
Imagine a schizophrenic being told they won't hear the pretty music anymore.
Etc. etc. etc.

There is so very, very much that is mortal to our bodies and though our resurrected bodies will be like our physical bodies, there will most definitely be differences even if I and we have no details on that. While california boy and others may recoil in horror that their resurrected bodies may not be exactly the same as their physical bodies now are, I am perfectly fine claiming that our bodies will be better. And if that means I have to give up whatever attachment I have to an imperfection that is present in immortality -- no matter how important to the identity I give myself in this fallen, mortal, comparatively dreary, wasteland -- so be it.

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, kllindley said:

So, when the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve wrote and published "God Loveth his Children," they were just expressing their opinions?  That despite their expressed witness, they really didn't know the truth? 

No, I believe that is a core teaching from Christ and God.  It resonates with me and I've had personal revelation that it's true.

However, the statements we were actually discussing are more specific (IMO) and are opinions from the few leaders who have spoken regarding our sexuality after we pass away.  My opinion is that we just don't know how it's going to be.  I know you have your beliefs and I certainly and definitely respect them (since they are coming from someone who this is a very personal issue for).  My hope and belief is that we will be with those we love.

[ALarson]

11 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Imagine a person with dwarfism being told that in the resurrection their body will be "regular size".
Imagine a person with albinism being told that they will have "regular" skin pigment.
Imagine a person who can't roll their tongue or wiggle their ears being told they now can or can't.
Imagine a polydactyl being told they won't have their sixth finger on the left hand.
Imagine a person with homosexual sexual attraction being told they won't have that kind of sexual attraction anymore.
Imagine a sociopath being told they'll now have regular empathetic reactions in their brain.
Imagine a schizophrenic being told they won't hear the pretty music anymore.
Etc. etc. etc.

I get your point, but, these are not comparable to someone who is born gay, IMO.  Unless you believe this means they are born with a defect.  I would hope that most can relate to how it must feel to be told they are going to be "cured" (or "fixed") of something that that love and hold dear.  Many are very happy with their partners and same sex spouses.....they don't want to be "cured" of loving them or desiring to be with them through the eternities.

(I like that you did include: "Imagine a person with homosexual sexual attraction being told they won't have that kind of sexual attraction anymore."  I missed that the first time  )

Edited August 4, 2019 by ALarson

[Nofear]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

I get your point, but, these are not comparable to someone who is born gay, IMO.  Unless you believe this means they are born with a defect.  I would hope that most can relate to how it must feel to be told they are going to be "cured" (or "fixed") of something that that love and hold dear.  Many are very happy with their partners and same sex spouses.....they don't want to be "cured" of loving them or desiring to be with them through the eternities.

A person with dwarfism could respond exactly the same way. But maybe they don't want to be fixed. Or maybe somebody who is blind doesn't want to see. Or maybe somebody with double joints really, really, wants their double joints. /shrug

I don't know the answers to the nitty-gritty of the resurrection. Clearly the Savior was able to retain his wounds. Is this an exception or an indication that we'll have flexibility. I don't know. But I do know that our presumptions of what we'll want and not want is... well.... presumptuous.

 

[ALarson]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t think you fully understand what I’m saying. It seems to me that unless the prophet or Church leader declares, “On such and such a date and time, at specific location X, while I was engaged in X, the word of the Lord came to me, and here is a transcription of what He said,” that you are inclined to dismiss it as just that much personal opinion that is no more authoritative than what somebody else might say by way of personal opinion.

I’m saying it is hazardous to put conditions on how and when and in what form a leader conveys an inspired message before you will consider hearkening to it as an expression of the mind and will of God. There is <at least> as much danger in that sort of attitude as there is in blind acceptance of every offhand comment a Church leader might make. 

And that's why we each need to pray about any opinion given.  I most often receive a confirmation that the words our leaders speak are true and I agree with their opinions and teachings.  But not always.  We know that we do not always have to agree with every thing they state.  

Some of their statements on this topic are those I personally do not agree with.   But, that does not mean that I don't respect them or their right to have an opinion.  

If in the future, this teaching of gays being cured after death becomes a church doctrine.....I will have to definitely revisit it and do some very serious thinking & praying over it.  For now, I'm comfortable with my beliefs.

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Nofear said:

A person with dwarfism could respond exactly the same way. But maybe they don't want to be fixed. Or maybe somebody who is blind doesn't want to see. Or maybe somebody with double joints really, really, wants their double joints. /shrug

I'm ok with that.  I believe there will be nothing forced on anyone.  That includes polygamy too 😛

[USU78]

13 minutes ago, ALarson said:

born gay

So. Research results came in establishing nature, not nurture, eh?

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So. Research results came in establishing nature, not nurture, eh?

My belief is that the great majority of those who are gay were born gay.  I know there are exceptions (but even wonder about some of those because of the abuse involved, etc.....there are many issues regarding those affected by that).

I have a sister-in-law who struggled her entire life trying to like guys....date guys....and was engaged to several different young men and men.  She tried and tried to be something she was not (sexually attracted to men).  Unless she's lying (something I've not seen her do), she knew this for as long as she can remember (from a very young age).  My experience has been that this is the case with most people who are gay.

And, my sister-in-law is now married to a wonderful woman.  She is happy for the first time in her life, IMO, because she can finally be open about who she is.  

We can belittle these types of experiences, but more and more members are having friends and family members who they personally experience this with and see the joy and celebrate with them.

Edited August 4, 2019 by ALarson

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Imagine a person with dwarfism being told that in the resurrection their body will be "regular size".
Imagine a person with albinism being told that they will have "regular" skin pigment.
Imagine a person who can't roll their tongue or wiggle their ears being told they now can or can't.
Imagine a polydactyl being told they won't have their sixth finger on the left hand.
Imagine a person with homosexual sexual attraction being told they won't have that kind of sexual attraction anymore.
Imagine a sociopath being told they'll now have regular empathetic reactions in their brain.
Imagine a schizophrenic being told they won't hear the pretty music anymore.
Etc. etc. etc.

I think the closest analogy I have come across yet is telling a deaf person who is completely immersed and adjusted to living in the signing culture that they will be able to hear.  Most of the above is seen as likely unhealthy or dysfunctional or unnecessary even by many who possess those attributes.  Otoh, many in the deaf community sees itself as an alternative lifestyle as functional and healthy and desirable as the hearing community and to be able to hear means a loss of that experience, not a restoration of something missing.

The debate is if an attribute is actually an imperfection or just a difference.  Some people see any difference as imperfection (as in the past the assumption by some in my experience the difference of race would be removed since we were all white in the preexistence and would be white again when restored to celestial bodies).  Others the difference has to be obviously detrimental in some fashion, though what is detrimental varies a great deal over time and place...in the past lefthandedness was something to be overcome, now no big deal as they make lefthandedness tools, etc.

I use deaf as an analogy with sexual orientation because it makes no difference to appearance and thus 'feels' more behaviour oriented.  Dwarfism may also fall into 'alternative community' these days, but there are still significant medical issues in addition to size that are usually involved, so not so neutral in choosing as deafness (choosing to remain a dwarf may have the connotation of choosing significant pain, etc).*****

****some discussion of implications of little people/dwarfism activism:  https://medium.com/living-with-difference/is-dwarfism-a-disease-bef600b9e0ff

Edited August 4, 2019 by Calm

[kllindley]

40 minutes ago, ALarson said:

However, the statements we were actually discussing are more specific (IMO) and are opinions from the few leaders who have spoken regarding our sexuality after we pass away. 

Was this statement different than that?

"As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children."

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, ALarson said:

She tried and tried to be something she was not (sexually attracted to men).  Unless she's lying (something I've not seen her do), she knew this for as long as she can remember (from a very young age).  My experience has been that this is the case with most people who are gay.

That is generally the same experience as occurs with language...what person ever remembers when they did not speak their first language and can they ever forget it?

This doesn't mean however they were born speaking that language.

Edited August 4, 2019 by Calm

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Was this statement different than that?

"As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children."

I think that statement gives great hope and also includes those who are gay, imo.  They have husbands and wives and children (even if not together).  Adoption may be a big part of after life.  There’s even adoption sealings.

[USU78]

37 minutes ago, ALarson said:

My belief is that the great majority of those who are gay were born gay.  I know there are exceptions (but even wonder about some of those because of the abuse involved, etc.....there are many issues regarding those affected by that).

I have a sister-in-law who struggled her entire life trying to like guys....date guys....and was engaged to several different young men and men.  She tried and tried to be something she was not (sexually attracted to men).  Unless she's lying (something I've not seen her do), she knew this for as long as she can remember (from a very young age).  My experience has been that this is the case with most people who are gay.

And, my sister-in-law is now married to a wonderful woman.  She is happy for the first time in her life, IMO, because she can finally be open about who she is.  

We can belittle these types of experiences, but more and more members are having friends and family members who they personally experience this with and see the joy and celebrate with them.

Your belief. Quite.

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is generally the same experience as occurs with language...what person ever remembers when they did not speak their first language and can they ever forget it?

This doesn't mean however they were born speaking that language.

I agree.  But, then we'd have to believe that something took place between birth and a very young age that "turned" (for lack of a better term) them gay or changed their sexual orientation (as with causing them to speak a certain language).  And then we're into the territory of gay parents raising children to be gay.  I don't think I want to go there.....

If that didn't happen, then they were born gay, IMO. 

(And, I'm not saying that there isn't possible abuse involved at that young age which may cause sexual orientation confusion.....)

Edited August 4, 2019 by ALarson

[CV75]

36 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Was this statement different than that?

"As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children."

I think some exception is taken to the use of the word "normal," what the Spirit teaches is normal to God, and what that means in relation to godly attributes and covenants.

ETA: Posted Friday at 02:45 PM

Edited August 4, 2019 by CV75

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I agree.  But, then we'd have to believe that something took place between birth and a very young age that "turned" (for lack of a better term) them gay or changed their sexual orientation (as with causing them to speak a certain language).  And then we're into the territory of gay parents raising children to be gay.  I don't think I want to go there.....

If that didn't happen, then they were born gay, IMO. 

(And, I'm not saying that there isn't possible abuse involved at that young age which may cause sexual orientation confusion.....)

I prefer tuned rather than turned.  I don't think we are inherently heterosexual as demonstrated by certain communities where homosexual behaviour is considered the norm.

No one is inherently English speaking or Spanish speaking, it isn't that everyone starts out as a Spanish or English speaker but then gets diverted.  And one language in their home may or may not end up being their primary language depending on what else they pick up in their environment.  It depends on all of their upbringing, not just parental. 

Children have a tendency to learn language and also to learn orientation imo.  What language is most likely dependent on what they see those around them doing.  Orientation is likely dependent in much the same way, but since sexuality isn't as limited as language in behaviour, there are also other ways influence can occur.  Perhaps an analogy could be how one person speaks English in a family with little variation in cadence or tone while another is very expressive and uses their hands and facial expressions as well....where did each pick up the habit? And when.  The difference in speaking styles between my two granddaughters was apparent as soon as they began to talk and becomes more so as they age, with refinement coming from activities and interests and friends they hang out with, for example.

The majority of those who experience some amount of homosexual attraction also experience sexual fluidity. To draw conclusions about orientation primarily from the experiences of the smallest group (always and only experience same sex attraction, 2% iirc) is poor science, imo. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by Calm

[kllindley]

51 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I think that statement gives great hope and also includes those who are gay, imo.  They have husbands and wives and children (even if not together).  Adoption may be a big part of after life.  There’s even adoption sealings.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. I do think it is important to provide the context of that statement.  I'll let other people decide for themselves whether your interpretation is consistent with the actual teachings. 

"God has provided the plan of salvation, or plan of happiness, to help you receive the blessings of eternal life. This plan is set forth in the scriptures; men and women cannot rewrite it to accommodate their desires. God alone gives the reward of eternal life. Some of the greatest blessings promised by the plan, including eternal life, are not intended for immediate enjoyment. Eternity is long, and mortality is short. As you base your decisions on eternal principles rather than on earthly challenges or desires, you can have “peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come” (D&C 59:23).

These blessings are based on obedience to eternal principles. The importance of families is one of these principles. Heaven is organized by families, which require a man and a woman who together exercise their creative powers within the bounds the Lord has set. Same-gender relationships are inconsistent with this plan. Without both a husband and a wife there would be no eternal family and no opportunity to become like Heavenly Father.

In some circumstances a person defers marriage because he or she is not presently attracted to a member of the opposite gender. While many Latter-day Saints, through individual effort, the exercise of faith, and reliance upon the enabling power of the Atonement, overcome same-gender attraction in mortality, others may not be free of this challenge in this life. However, the perfect plan of our Father in Heaven makes provision for individuals who seek to keep His commandments but who, through no fault of their own, do not have an eternal marriage in mortal life. As we follow Heavenly Father’s plan, our bodies, feelings, and desires will be perfected in the next life so that every one of God’s children may find joy in a family consisting of a husband, a wife, and children."

I also like this statement from the new mormonandgay website: 

"Marriage is an important part of God’s plan for our happiness. Eternal marriage between a man and a woman is essential at some point in our progression to reach exaltation, a state defined as living the kind of life our Heavenly Parents currently enjoy."

Edited August 5, 2019 by kllindley

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I think that statement gives great hope and also includes those who are gay, imo.  They have husbands and wives and children (even if not together).  Adoption may be a big part of after life.  There’s even adoption sealings.

I should think it would bring the greatest hope to those who are gay but desire to follow God’s plan and commandments in all things. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

And that's why we each need to pray about any opinion given.  I most often receive a confirmation that the words our leaders speak are true and I agree with their opinions and teachings.  But not always.  We know that we do not always have to agree with every thing they state.  

Some of their statements on this topic are those I personally do not agree with.   But, that does not mean that I don't respect them or their right to have an opinion.  

If in the future, this teaching of gays being cured after death becomes a church doctrine.....I will have to definitely revisit it and do some very serious thinking & praying over it.  For now, I'm comfortable with my beliefs.

It’s already a Church doctrine. See the quotations cited by kllindley. 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

And that's why we each need to pray about any opinion given.  I most often receive a confirmation that the words our leaders speak are true and I agree with their opinions and teachings.  But not always.  We know that we do not always have to agree with every thing they state.  

Some of their statements on this topic are those I personally do not agree with.   But, that does not mean that I don't respect them or their right to have an opinion.  

Part of respecting them <as ordained servants of God> is refraining from speaking or writing in open opposition of what they say in the capacity of their divine calling — including on internet message boards.  

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Imagine a person with dwarfism being told that in the resurrection their body will be "regular size".
Imagine a person with albinism being told that they will have "regular" skin pigment.
Imagine a person who can't roll their tongue or wiggle their ears being told they now can or can't.
Imagine a polydactyl being told they won't have their sixth finger on the left hand.
Imagine a person with homosexual sexual attraction being told they won't have that kind of sexual attraction anymore.
Imagine a sociopath being told they'll now have regular empathetic reactions in their brain.
Imagine a schizophrenic being told they won't hear the pretty music anymore.
Etc. etc. etc.

There is so very, very much that is mortal to our bodies and though our resurrected bodies will be like our physical bodies, there will most definitely be differences even if I and we have no details on that. While california boy and others may recoil in horror that their resurrected bodies may not be exactly the same as their physical bodies now are, I am perfectly fine claiming that our bodies will be better. And if that means I have to give up whatever attachment I have to an imperfection that is present in immortality -- no matter how important to the identity I give myself in this fallen, mortal, comparatively dreary, wasteland -- so be it.

I understand the use of these comparisons if one sees homosexuality as a defect.  I don’t. I’m not here to argue just to share my POV. 

Imagine I am born with a talent that the majority of my community doesn’t  enjoy,  but I enjoy it immensely.  Let’s say I’m a very skilled artist who does very unusual abstract art.  I’m then told that in the life hereafter, it’s going to be all Greg Olsen style stuff and my talent will be traded in for Greg’s style.  When I think of my own talent, the very idea is abhorrent. 

I know it’s a stretch,  but for me , it’s a closer parallel.  It’s more about who I am that about a broken part of my body. 

Ultimately, CA boy is right.  We don’t know a thing.  

I will say this, we are certainly (imo) creatures of habit- any change is uncomfortable. I went through a very uncomfortable phase to get to my place of peace with this issue.  These conversations do guide us all closer to clarity, and nobody’s story is over.  

[Calm]

I like the use of art styles, good analogy imo.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Part of respecting them <as ordained servants of God> is refraining from speaking or writing in open opposition of what they say in the capacity of their divine calling — including on internet message boards.  

There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing with their opinions.  Otherwise it’s complete blind faith agreement or obedience.  And I’ve never seen ALarson be disrespectful.  That’s the key.  No personal attacks or speaking evil.  We can respectfully disagree.

Edited August 5, 2019 by JulieM

[Hamba Tuhan]

15 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m then told that in the life hereafter, it’s going to be all Greg Olsen style stuff and my talent will be traded in for Greg’s style.  When I think of my own talent, the very idea is abhorrent. 

If God tells His prophets that my talent for abstract art is stopping my eternal progression, I'm going to need God Himself to confirm that. If God Himself tells me that my talent for abstract art is stopping my eternal progression, I'm finished with abstract art. End of story. 'Not my will but Thine be done'.

[JulieM]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s already a Church doctrine. 

That gays will be cured or changed after this life?  

Do you have a statement from a living Prophet or antything confirming that is official church doctrine?

Edited August 5, 2019 by JulieM