Sam Young Back in the News

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

and I don't think either are sins at all since they are are about self-control not about violating laws of God)

Not sure about porn just being about self control (all sins are probably about self control, but I agree there may be some issues of self control that are not sins):

”But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”  Matthew 5:28

[strappinglad]

1. " Never stop your enemy when he is making a mistake " 

2. In my life I have seen this situation quite often. The Pastor who makes it a weekly topic to rant about homosexuality is later found to be " involved " with another man . 

[rchorse]

I haven't read every post, so maybe this has been mentioned, but the problem with the idea of not asking more detailed questions is that not everyone understands the words chastity, fornication and adultery the same way. Some people confess to fornication and it turns out it was just kissing with tongue or something. Other people say they went a little too far, but didn't break the law of chastity. When you clarify, it turns out they did everything except intercourse.

It sounds nice to just ask "do you live the law of chastity?" and leave it at that, but the reality is that with youth and young adults and even some older adults, many will answer yes when they are completely unworthy and many worthy people will answer no, just based on a misunderstanding of basic terms like chastity, fornication, and adultery.

What I found worked best was to ask what happened, but at the same time say, "Please do not give an explicit or graphic play-by-play description. I just need a general idea of what went on."

[Hamba Tuhan]

21 minutes ago, rchorse said:

It sounds nice to just ask "do you live the law of chastity?" and leave it at that ...

When interviewing youth for temple recommends, I always asked, 'What do you understand the Law of Chastity to be?' before asking, 'Do you live the Law of Chastity?'

Multiple times, the response was, 'That's about how we don't smoke or drink, right?' Or just a shrug of the shoulders. Which is when I would clarify, 'The Law of Chastity is the Lord's law of sexual purity'. Then I would ask the question. I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would make me to be asked if I lived a 'law' if I didn't actually know what it meant. Not cool.

By the way, I did the exact same thing with the Word of Wisdom too.

Quote

Many will answer yes when they are completely unworthy ...

And here you're on shaky ground because, overwhelmingly, the 'stop all interviews' crowd completely reject the concept of sin and worthiness. That's the real agenda driving so much of this. What they're actually trying to 'protect children' from is the basic Christian message.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[rchorse]

42 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When interviewing youth for temple recommends, I always asked, 'What do you understand the Law of Chastity to be?' before asking, 'Do you live the Law of Chastity?'

I would often do the same.

And here you're on shaky ground because, overwhelmingly, the 'stop all interviews' crowd completely reject the concept of sin and worthiness. That's the real agenda driving so much of this. What they're actually trying to 'protect children' from is the basic Christian message.

Yes, I agree. I think the risk to youth and children, when church policies are followed, is vanishingly small to nonexistent. I'm 100% in favor of educating priesthood leaders on church policies and requiring full compliance. But the real agenda does seem to be abolishing any concept of sin or worthiness.

 

 

[MustardSeed]

I can absolutely understand the opinion that for example my own thoughts might be about wanting to dismiss M being interviewed for as M being dismissed as a sin.  I get it! 

My mindset is moderation in this, like as in many things that can be considered sin in excess.  Imo there are things that we should take far more seriously as sin- such as over eating and self indulgence in unhealthy foods.  I just think it’s such a favorite sin that we can’t even touch it.  

Sexx is just so touchy that people like to get worked up over the sin of it.  Plus there are so many hang ups for so many folks in this arena that there ends up being a lot of projection type preaching over it. 

I recall my bishop in college who was parapalegic who told us if we kissed with our mouths open we would not get a temple recommend. I have always wondered what that was all about. 

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, rpn said:

And I think it is really counterproductive to teach sex ed without sharing that it absolutely feels good and they will likely want to use it, and that is nothing they need to feel surprised or ashamed about:  if they've just been taught that sex or its expression is BAD, then when they learn it isn't, it is a complete "they lied about this, so what else are they lying about".

I was never taught that sex was "bad." We were always taught that God designed us to desire each other and that his commandments about sex weren't so much of the 'thou shalt not' variety so much as 'thou shalt not...yet' (with 'yet' being understood to be before or outside of marriage). 

I can't say with certainty what the young women were taught, but since my mother was the YW president throughout most of my teenage years, I'm pretty confident it was along the same lines. 

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Amulek

[MustardSeed]

30 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I was never taught that sex was "bad." We were always taught that God designed us to desire each other and that his commandments about sex weren't so much of the 'thou shalt not' variety so mush as 'thou shalt not...yet' (with 'yet' being understood to be before or outside of marriage). 

I can't say with certainty what the young women were taught, but since my mother was the YW president throughout most of my teenage years, I'm pretty confident it was along the same lines. 

 

I was “ told “ it was good, but “taught” it was bad. 

[Storm Rider]

There are certainly benefits to having a paid clergy, but even with paid clergy bad things will happen. It is called being human - when humans are involved bad things will happen. We need to get used to that.

Worthiness, or more appropriately, in my opinion, opportunities to assist individuals through repentance are vital to one's spiritual life. There is much to be said for setting aside the burdens of sin and gaining the freedom of living a life of righteousness. Bishops and Stake Presidents assist individuals in doing that. 

I think it is important that these individuals receive some training in how to interview and what type of questions are enabling for the penitent and what types of questions are not. The interview process are not times to root out sin - that is the wrong approach. It is a time to provide an opportunity for individuals to set aside sins that bother them. It is also an opportunity for the individual to gain a deeper understanding of the atonement and what God's forgiveness means. Too many individuals carry around the guilt for sins that have long since been forgiven by God, yet they want to berate themselves continually for the abandoned sin from years ago. An effective leader assists in the understanding of true forgiveness.

Should multiple individuals be involved? I think it depends on the age of the member, what they desire, and the purpose of the interview. 

Probing interviews by bishops and stake presidents are not appropriate or good. However, probing interviews of bishops and stake presidents should be constant, consistent, and complete. 

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Sexx is just so touchy that people like to get worked up over the sin of it.  Plus there are so many hang ups for so many folks in this arena that there ends up being a lot of projection type preaching over it.

While I think this is true to some extent, I think most church leaders get worked up over it because the Lord has defined it as serious sin. It's typically not in the same league as overeating or Word of Wisdom issues. Of course, there are varying degrees of seriousness on a spectrum, with some transgressions being very minor. But having seen firsthand the devastating damage sexual sin can cause, I have a hard time sharing the currently popular world view that it's "just sex." Based on what I read in the scriptures, I don't believe the Lord sees it as "just sex", either.

[USU78]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Have you watched the new Queer Eye seasons on Netflix? Absolutely love them and how they help change lives for the better.

Haven't watched it in years. The formula is okay.  It just didn't hold my interest beyond the first season.

[USU78]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When interviewing youth for temple recommends, I always asked, 'What do you understand the Law of Chastity to be?' before asking, 'Do you live the Law of Chastity?'

Multiple times, the response was, 'That's about how we don't smoke or drink, right?' Or just a shrug of the shoulders. Which is when I would clarify, 'The Law of Chastity is the Lord's law of sexual purity'. Then I would ask the question. I can't imagine how uncomfortable it would make me to be asked if I lived a 'law' if I didn't actually know what it meant. Not cool.

By the way, I did the exact same thing with the Word of Wisdom too.

And here you're on shaky ground because, overwhelmingly, the 'stop all interviews' crowd completely reject the concept of sin and worthiness. That's the real agenda driving so much of this. What they're actually trying to 'protect children' from is the basic Christian message.

Ironically they're attacking the very youth they claim they're trying to save. Infantilizing them. Working from the assumption that scout age boys have no familiarity with the concept of masturbation, for example. In doing so they reveal themselves to be disingenuous or clueless, and neither is a particularly good look.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Haven't watched it in years. The formula is okay.  It just didn't hold my interest beyond the first season.

This is different than the other Queer Eye, it's less than two years running, I believe. If you have Netflix I encourage you to watch them and hopefully don't let their gayness dissuade you, not that you would. But I have friends that were slightly put off about one of the guy's choice of clothing. But I look at their hearts and it's definitely an all heart show. I believe you may have watched the Queer Eye in the early 2000's. 

This is Season 4, but all of the seasons are incredible! 

 https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/07/queer-eye-season-four-ranked-netflix

[USU78]

Just now, Tacenda said:

This is different than the other Queer Eye, it's less than two years running, I believe. If you have Netflix I encourage you to watch them and hopefully don't let their gayness dissuade you, not that you would. But I have friends that were slightly put off about one of the guy's choice of clothing. But I look at their hearts and it's definitely an all heart show. I believe you may have watched the Queer Eye in the early 2000's. 

This is Season 4, but all of the seasons are incredible! 

 https://www.thepostathens.com/article/2019/07/queer-eye-season-four-ranked-netflix

The payoff would have to be spectacular. No thanks.

[Tacenda]

Maybe we need more CASA volunteers. I'd do this if I weren't going to babysit my grandbaby soon, after she is born in a few weeks. 

Having the volunteers eyes besides just the CPS, will hopefully spot things unseen. 

https://utahcasa.org/menus/casas-journey.html

Edited July 30, 2019 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, rchorse said:

While I think this is true to some extent, I think most church leaders get worked up over it because the Lord has defined it as serious sin. It's typically not in the same league as overeating or Word of Wisdom issues. Of course, there are varying degrees of seriousness on a spectrum, with some transgressions being very minor. But having seen firsthand the devastating damage sexual sin can cause, I have a hard time sharing the currently popular world view that it's "just sex." Based on what I read in the scriptures, I don't believe the Lord sees it as "just sex", either.

Of course not.  I also see sex with another person other than a spouse as hugely problematic, for practical reasons, and for spiritual reasons.  I also see habitual M as a problem.  

Many women(my experience, not cfr) have never seen their own bodies much less ever learned how to work their equipment due to such a tremendous stigma on the word M.  Like I said, moderation. And yes, moderation means very different things to different people.  I think that most people could be trusted to work that out privately with God unless it hurts another person. 

[provoman]

20 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I'm not so much talking about this figure, who I know little about, than people's worries about interviews in general. For instance my son's math teacher just go arrested this weekend. What was his grooming technique? Talking about sex and then moving up to pornographic pictures. So sex talk very much can be a grooming technique particularly when explicit. Bishops who get explicit (and some do - although probably most aren't predatory) can be problematic for many reasons beyond predation.

He is, in my opinion, abusing the term "grooming".

Again his words:

"Almost every bishop is grooming our children for the sexual predators in our leadership ranks, in the neighborhood and anywhere else in society.  The bishops groom kids for those serving above and around them.  Bishops are grooming our youngsters for the predator who might replace him as the next bishop."

Grooming is conduct with intent. A worthiness interview is not grooming.

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe we need more CASA volunteers. I'd do this if I weren't going to babysit my grandbaby soon, after she is born in a few weeks. 

Having the volunteers eyes besides just the CPS, will hopefully spot things unseen. 

https://utahcasa.org/menus/casas-journey.html

I did this for several years and it is how I got most of the stories and information I have shared here. I had to stop a few months ago after my last case finished due to other obligations but I hope to start up again soon. It is not for the faint-hearted or those with very fixed schedules but it is a good way to help and if you cannot meet the time commitment they always need donations.

The way it works is after a child is removed a CASA is assigned (if possible, they are generally short on volunteers). The CASA reviews the case files and starts to visit the kid or kids. You observe parental visits, visit/observe them in foster homes and/or school, and report on what is going on. You meet the parents, hunt down missing parents (usually dads), research everyone involved, and try to figure out ways to make the child more comfortable and get the best resolution possible. In court you give a short verbal report to the judge. You can also (with the agency’s permissions) formally contest CPS recommendations if you disagree.

I was an avid researcher. I hunted down old court records, drew impressions by tracking social media, and created a lot of timelines. I tracked down dads (sometimes multiple possible dads) and extended family looking for potential homes. I would also do preliminary fitness evaluations of extended family or fictive kin (friends that are basically family). It is like stalking except on the side of right. I also built good rapport with the kids. I had one girl who would run over and hug me every time I came over and I would play UNO with her older brother while talking with them. I would give them little birthday gifts and sometimes bring food. With teenagers it is more they just need to be heard. If you can get them laughing and talking and they trust you it is amazing how they open up. I cannot say how (too much detail) but I came up with a plan to get a teenager out of foster care that worked perfectly. Probably the most good I did in the program.

While I saw a lot of horror there is a certain empathy you develop as you talk to unfit parents and realize that usually they were dealt a horrific hand in life. It does not justify it or excuse what happened but it is more understandable. Do not volunteer though if you cannot put it away when you are done for the day. If you get too attached it can really mess with you.

Anyways, I will stop now.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, provoman said:

He is, in my opinion, abusing the term "grooming".

Again his words:

"Almost every bishop is grooming our children for the sexual predators in our leadership ranks, in the neighborhood and anywhere else in society.  The bishops groom kids for those serving above and around them.  Bishops are grooming our youngsters for the predator who might replace him as the next bishop."

Grooming is conduct with intent. A worthiness interview is not grooming.

This is very true. Saying almost all bishops are grooming is histrionic slander. Grooming literally cannot be done unless the bishop has intent to abuse themself.

[USU78]

16 minutes ago, provoman said:

Grooming is conduct with intent. A worthiness interview is not grooming.

Thank you.  Perfectly put.  The funny uncle and the lecherous librarian make sure the target becomes used to intimacy of topic and touch before the grooming becomes full-on seduction.

Interviewing priestly youth on the necessary topics of priestly purity is nothing like that.

 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, rchorse said:

I haven't read every post, so maybe this has been mentioned, but the problem with the idea of not asking more detailed questions is that not everyone understands the words chastity, fornication and adultery the same way. Some people confess to fornication and it turns out it was just kissing with tongue or something. Other people say they went a little too far, but didn't break the law of chastity. When you clarify, it turns out they did everything except intercourse.

It sounds nice to just ask "do you live the law of chastity?" and leave it at that, but the reality is that with youth and young adults and even some older adults, many will answer yes when they are completely unworthy and many worthy people will answer no, just based on a misunderstanding of basic terms like chastity, fornication, and adultery.

What I found worked best was to ask what happened, but at the same time say, "Please do not give an explicit or graphic play-by-play description. I just need a general idea of what went on."

Yeah, every time someone opposes sex education in schools or things like bishops teaching the youth about sexual sin I nod when they say parents should be teaching this. Then I realize far too many parents teach nothing or next to nothing and realize that others have to step in.

This is not limited to this area:

I remember when I was a teenager there was a weird kid in my quorum. Always smelled and was quiet. My dad was the bishop and they came over once with the rest of the quorum for an activity. My dad was hesitant but decided to take him aside and ask why he did not wear deodorant. Turns out he had no idea what it was or that he should shower daily. My dad walked him through why he should and he cleaned up nice and opened up and became social. Some parents............ 😞

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I did this for several years and it is how I got most of the stories and information I have shared here. I had to stop a few months ago after my last case finished due to other obligations but I hope to start up again soon. It is not for the faint-hearted or those with very fixed schedules but it is a good way to help and if you cannot meet the time commitment they always need donations.

The way it works is after a child is removed a CASA is assigned (if possible, they are generally short on volunteers). The CASA reviews the case files and starts to visit the kid or kids. You observe parental visits, visit/observe them in foster homes and/or school, and report on what is going on. You meet the parents, hunt down missing parents (usually dads), research everyone involved, and try to figure out ways to make the child more comfortable and get the best resolution possible. In court you give a short verbal report to the judge. You can also (with the agency’s permissions) formally contest CPS recommendations if you disagree.

I was an avid researcher. I hunted down old court records, drew impressions by tracking social media, and created a lot of timelines. I tracked down dads (sometimes multiple possible dads) and extended family looking for potential homes. I would also do preliminary fitness evaluations of extended family or fictive kin (friends that are basically family). It is like stalking except on the side of right. I also built good rapport with the kids. I had one girl who would run over and hug me every time I came over and I would play UNO with her older brother while talking with them. I would give them little birthday gifts and sometimes bring food. With teenagers it is more they just need to be heard. If you can get them laughing and talking and they trust you it is amazing how they open up. I cannot say how (too much detail) but I came up with a plan to get a teenager out of foster care that worked perfectly. Probably the most good I did in the program.

While I saw a lot of horror there is a certain empathy you develop as you talk to unfit parents and realize that usually they were dealt a horrific hand in life. It does not justify it or excuse what happened but it is more understandable. Do not volunteer though if you cannot put it away when you are done for the day. If you get too attached it can really mess with you.

Anyways, I will stop now.

You helped me so much to know, I've been thinking of doing this up until my daughter said she may keep working to afford health insurance, and I was right on it in talking her into letting me watch the baby. 

I had no idea you had so much hands-on in this position. It sounds wonderful, and you are wonderful for all that you did, Nehor! Sorry, I know you probably don't like people gushing over you, haha!

[JAHS]

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

This is very true. Saying almost all bishops are grooming is histrionic slander. 

 Well all monkeys groom each other so............ 😉

[Tacenda]

On 7/30/2019 at 4:02 AM, rchorse said:

 

Why do these questions have to asked in the first place, these worthiness questions. How about discuss other things non sexual? When putting many of the youth in a state of mind that they are no longer worthy, this is abuse. 

[JAHS]

35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why do these questions have to asked in the first place, these worthiness questions. How about discuss other things non sexual? When putting many of the youth in a state of mind that they are no longer worthy, this is abuse. 

Would it be better to talk to the parents and encourage them to talk to their children about these things and ask the parents if their children are having any trouble with these issues? 
I think the kids still need the opportunity to at least ask questions about such things that they might not want to discuss with their parents. 
A Bishop could just ask a general question like "is there anything regarding your personal worthiness that you would like to talk about?"