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Handcart era -- correcting some false assumptions


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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Certainly an object lesson on the fallibility of well-intentioned leaders.

Thank heavens for that!

ETA: Oops, this was a comment for ClarkGoble and his comment about the Donner Party below:

"Things could have always been worse. Just be glad we didn't have our own Donner party."

Edited by Tacenda
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39 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Scripture belies the notion.

I would argue it supports it.

Stuff that never happened:

Joseph Smith: Can you tell me which church to join?

God: None of them and you need to be my instrument to restore my gospel. It should be a pretty easy job. Mostly paperwork.

 

Jesus (speaking to Peter): When you were young you went where you wanted. When you are old you will also go where you want and you certainly will not be killed via slow torture.

 

God (speaking to Lehi): I will take you to a promised land. (Poof) Teleportation is easy. Enjoy.

 

Moses: Let my people go!

Pharoah: Sure, I was wondering why you guys never asked.

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2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

If I am reading Black correctly her numbers are of total immigrants which would include covered wagons, ships to the west coast and travel east to Utah, and others. So it's simply a different number from what Scott is discussing. It is interesting that according to Black the mortality rate for LDS travel was much lower than for non-Mormon emmigration. Black gives 2000 deaths up until rail travel became possible in 1869 while others put the number between 4600 - 6000. I think this paragraph from your link is key:

"As we review pioneer death rates, it is important to note that people of the time reported that Latter-day Saint pioneer death numbers were lower than the overall trail death rates, from 4 to 6 percent, for persons using the Oregon and California Trails. Yet LDS pioneer groups included many women, children, elderly, and disabled. Furthermore, after the European LDS emigration was in full swing, pioneer companies were disproportionately composed of people without experience in yoking or driving animals or other common trail skills. One writer commented that the LDS handcart companies would have “looked more like the population of the poor farm on a picnic than like pioneers about to cross the plains.”"

There are clearly lots of criticisms one could make of the handcarts - particularly the ones that suffered the most. It's worth noting though that people honestly were trying the best they could. There was a lot going on at the time and life at Winter Quarters wasn't exactly great either. Really if one is going to criticize, it should be the mobs at Nauvoo that forced such rapid immigration.

Things could have always been worse. Just be glad we didn't have our own Donner party.

 

The movie “17 Miracles” draws a not-too-subtle comparison between the Donner party disaster and the suffering of the Willie and Martin handcart companies, making the unspoken point that the handcart ordeal could easily have ended up like the Donner party but for what I, for want of a better term, would call the spiritual stamina of the handcart pioneers. 

Incidentally, the Willie and Martin companies did not depart from Winter Quarters. At this point in time, the staging area was Iowa City, so had they elected to delay departure until spring of the following year, they would not have had the benefit of a temporary settlement of Latter-day Saints to support them. They would have had to rely on strangers, many of them hostile. There would have been consequences to that choice as well, perhaps including starvation, exposure and death.

In fact, if I’m not mistaken, Winter Quarters by this time (a full decade after the exodus from Nauvoo) had already been shut down and the remaining settlers instructed to come to Utah. 

The former Winter Quarters, by then called Florence, Neb., and Council Bluffs, Iowa, eventually did become the staging point for the handcart treks, but that was in later years. 

Edited to add: I just checked the dates. The Winter Quarters settlement only remained populated until 1848. That was eight years before the beginning of the handcart era in 1856. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Edited to add: I just checked the dates. The Winter Quarters settlement only remained populated until 1848. That was eight years before the beginning of the handcart era in 1856. 

Thanks for the correction. I had the dates wrong in my mind.

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On 7/28/2019 at 3:07 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

This goes for every would-be critic, but next time, before using the handcart experience as a club with which to publicly bludgeon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do a bit of basic investigation first.

Fixed it for you.

I've long argued that our pioneer ancestors didn't actually have it that hard. The suffering of the early saints if greatly exaggerated.

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55 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Fixed it for you.

You are not allowed to alter people's comments as if they were saying what has been changed (just mentioning this to avoid future error as Scott may not care in this case).

Quote

BANNED BEHAVIORS...

Altering members quotes on the board

 

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not convinced of that. The idea that God’s inspiration always leads to the safest and easiest path is a common myth.

Adam. Abel. Abraham. Noah. Moses. Jared. Lehi. Nephi. Mulek. Alma Sr. and Jr. Jesus. Paul. Peter. Et alia.

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10 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Fixed it for you.

I've long argued that our pioneer ancestors didn't actually have it that hard. The suffering of the early saints if greatly exaggerated.

This was their operating philosophy...

 

D&C 123.12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know notwhere to find it—

13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

16 You know, brethren, that a very large ship is benefited very much by a very small helm in the time of a storm, by being kept workways with the wind and the waves.

17 Therefore, dearly beloved brethren, let us cheerfully do all things that lie in our power; and then may we stand still, with the utmost assurance, to see the salvation of God, and for his arm to be revealed.

Life on the frontiers was not easy for anyone, but it was the life they knew or came to know. My great-great-grandfather’s experience with the Martin company was harrowing, but it steeled him. His children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren struggled in the Mormon colonies in southern Colorado. Sister Gui and I just visited the Pipe Spring fort/settlement near Kanab UT. Talk about a hard-scrabble life! To some, like Hugh Nibley’s grandfather, it was a “jolly adventure.” It’s what they did at the time, doing their best to survive and build.

We don’t refer much to wasting and wearing away our lives for the Kingdom anymore. I stand in awe of what they did. I don’t know if I would have the faith and courage, but I suppose that would rightly be called presentism......

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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38 minutes ago, Calm said:

You are not allowed to alter people's comments as if they were saying what has been changed (just mentioning this to avoid future error as Scott may not care in this case).

 

lulz...

I've been threatened with a board ban because I used the phrase, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I love this place.

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13 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

lulz...

I've been threatened with a board ban because I used the phrase, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I love this place.

No, we simply are not to change the words in other’s posts, such as, “There. I fixed it for you.”

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40 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

lulz...

I've been threatened with a board ban because I used the phrase, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  I love this place.

I can’t threaten you since I am not a mod. Just pointing out what is considered expected, respectful behaviour on this board. 

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On 7/28/2019 at 6:49 AM, bsjkki said:

Well, I do wonder why we seem to emphasize the “tragedy” instead of the fact the pioneer migration was a huge success. It was an amazing feat! ...

 

It's not so much the tragedy as it is the sacrifice.  I always wonder, since, comparatively, I've had it good, what would I be willing to sacrifice for the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ?

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13 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

lulz...

I've been threatened with a board ban because I used the phrase, the Church of Cheese and Rice of Rattle-Day Snakes.  I love this place.

Yeah, I got in trouble once for altering a quoted post and saying “fixed that for ya”. I understand why. It is a trust thing and altering quotes can confuse people.

Edit: Is no one picking up on what I did or is it just as funny as I thought it was?

Edited by The Nehor
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11 hours ago, Calm said:

You are not allowed to alter people's comments as if they were saying what has been changed (just mentioning this to avoid future error as Scott may not care in this case).

 

I have 6EQUJ5 on ignore, so I normally would not have seen this. But I do wonder why he/she is making an issue of this, since “Church of Jesus Christ” is an acceptable shortened form under the Church’s guidelines for the full name of the Church where it is clear from context what is being referred to. The guiding principle is not to be drawn into the habit of leaving the Savior’s name out of the name of His Church. 

By way of clarification, I don’t share 6EQ’s opinion that “our pioneer ancestors didn’t actually have it that hard.” I do object when I see the handcart experience being used as an occasion to find fault with the Church when the handcart venture by and large was successful if one brackets the anomalous episode of the Willie and Martin companies. 

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38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By way of clarification, I don’t share 6EQ’s opinion that “our pioneer ancestors didn’t actually have it that hard.” I do object when I see the handcart experience being used as an occasion to find fault with the Church when the handcart venture by and large was successful if one brackets the anomalous episode of the Willie and Martin companies. 

Weaponizing others' sacrifices and tragic circumstances doesn't seem to me to be a particularly laudable endeavor.  For what?  Gaining rhetorical advantage over people you despise?  Seriously?

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I think this is a perfect example of human tendency to use black and white thinking.  Can the handcart situation be both an example of faith, sacrifice, and triumph AND an illustration of fallibility, tragedy, and error?  I believe it can.  

My 2nd great-grandfather died in the Willie handcart company leaving his wife and three kids to come into the SL Valley alone.  While I think there was some error and naiveté in the leader's decisions to have the saints in the Willie Company leave so late in the season - I don't think it was malicious - and I find great inspiration and strength in the example of faith and desire to serve and obey shown by my family those many years ago - and I praise them for all the blessings I have enjoyed living in a beautiful state, free to practice the faith of my fore-fathers unmolested.  

 

I celebrate the handcart pioneers, and bristle when anyone tries to reduce their legacy to that of a bunch of hapless victims of poor church leadership.  

Edited by Maestrophil
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13 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's not so much the tragedy as it is the sacrifice.  I always wonder, since, comparatively, I've had it good, what would I be willing to sacrifice for the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ?

In my opinion, the Willie and Martin story is discussed more often and in more depth than the rest of the pioneer stories combined.

I think the entire pioneer migration is a fascinating story and should be studied more broadly. There are amazing stories of sacrifice that are not shared. This could be because the handcart episode is discussed preparing and executing pioneer treks.

Ask the youth what they know about the pioneer migration and see what they say. 

Edited by bsjkki
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On 7/28/2019 at 9:29 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

At a recent Elders Quorum meeting, we saw a clip from "17 Miracles" dramatizing the actual discussion before leaving on that ill-fated trek.  The clip had Levi Savage objecting that it was too late in the season to be going (based on his real life objections).  The lesson was on sustaining leaders, even when we disagree with them.  We had a spirited discussion, which was good for all.  Sometimes sustaining a leader means speaking up, doing good staff work, and providing a leader with more than sycophancy.  We must be prepared to tell the emperor that he has no clothes.

And in regard, people have their freedom of will in the Church.  There were many "back-outs", families who decided not to go when the season was too late.  (See David Roberts, Handcart Companies, etc. (2009).) Brigham Young was angry with Franklin D Richards for urging a late start.  (Ibid.)  The back-outs arrived later and many had successful lives in the valley.

Roberts' book was quite hostile to the Mormons, but his hostility rather proved the point of free will, wise choices and mistakes.  Folks like Roberts criticize Church leaders for claiming to be inspired, but God doesn't really treat his leaders this way. 

I further believe that an ox cart company leaving as late as the Martin handcart company, with novice travelers, would have had the same problems as the handcart companiesl

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37 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I further believe that an ox cart company leaving as late as the Martin handcart company, with novice travelers, would have had the same problems as the handcart companiesl

There were actually two ox cart companies that went with the Martin and Willie handcart companies.  They were the Hunt and Hodgetts.  And as mentioned earlier, they had a higher mortality rate than the normal ox cart companies.

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43 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

And in regard, people have their freedom of will in the Church.  There were many "back-outs", families who decided not to go when the season was too late.  (See David Roberts, Handcart Companies, etc. (2009).) Brigham Young was angry with Franklin D Richards for urging a late start.  (Ibid.)  The back-outs arrived later and many had successful lives in the valley.

Roberts' book was quite hostile to the Mormons, but his hostility rather proved the point of free will, wise choices and mistakes.  Folks like Roberts criticize Church leaders for claiming to be inspired, but God doesn't really treat his leaders this way. ...............

Yessir.

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

In my opinion, the Willie and Martin story is discussed more often and in more depth than the rest of the pioneer stories combined.

I think the entire pioneer migration is fascinating story and should be studied more broadly. There are amazing stories of sacrifice that are not shared. This could be because the handcart episode is discussed preparing and executing pioneer treks.

Ask the youth what they know about the pioneer migration and see what they say. 

Perhaps the ill-fated companies are discussed disproportionately, and perhaps those which traveled, comparatively speaking, without incident, deserve greater mention.  In general, however, because the majority of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who employed this mode of travel did arrive, comparatively speaking, without incident, the two ill-fated companies are the equivalent of a "man-bites-dog" story because what happened to them was so unusual, compared to the "dog-bites-man" story of the companies which traveled, comparatively speaking, without incident.  I think it's also important to avoid, however subtly or unintentionally, conveying the message that if one does what God wants him to do, life will be all "sunshine and roses and rainbows," with, as Elder Neal A. Maxwell so aptly put it, "an endless supply of empty parking spaces just in front of our destinations."

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2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

In my opinion, the Willie and Martin story is discussed more often and in more depth than the rest of the pioneer stories combined.

I think the entire pioneer migration is fascinating story and should be studied more broadly. There are amazing stories of sacrifice that are not shared. This could be because the handcart episode is discussed preparing and executing pioneer treks.

Ask the youth what they know about the pioneer migration and see what they say. 

Well not only it is the most often talked about, but most often, it seems to me, the false parts of it are largely emphasized--like the three teenage boys who died saving others and the BY guaranteeing these supposed boys salvation for their efforts.  

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4 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I think this is a perfect example of human tendency to use black and white thinking.  Can the handcart situation be both an example of faith, sacrifice, and triumph AND an illustration of fallibility, tragedy, and error?  I believe it can.  

My 2nd great-grandfather died in the Willie handcart company leaving his wife and three kids to come into the SL Valley alone.  While I think there was some error and naiveté in the leader's decisions to have the saints in the Willie Company leave so late in the season - I don't think it was malicious - and I find great inspiration and strength in the example of faith and desire to serve and obey shown by my family those many years ago - and I praise them for all the blessings I have enjoyed living in a beautiful state, free to practice the faith of my fore-fathers unmolested.  

 

I celebrate the handcart pioneers, and bristle when anyone tries to reduce their legacy to that of a bunch of hapless victims of poor church leadership.  

Point well taken. 

It should be borne in mind that it wasn’t solely the decision of Church leaders to have the Willey and Martin companies press on despite the lateness of the season and other factors. As depicted in the movie “17 Miracles,” the travelers themselves voted in favor of it. 

In fact, the hero of the movie, Levi Savage, urged them not to do it, but when he saw they were determined, he pledged to travel with them, suffer with them and, if need be, die with them. 

He was subjected to unjust censure from leaders due to his opposition to the proposal. 

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2 hours ago, webbles said:

There were actually two ox cart companies that went with the Martin and Willie handcart companies.  They were the Hunt and Hodgetts.  And as mentioned earlier, they had a higher mortality rate than the normal ox cart companies.

True. 

But I think the name was Hodges, not Hodgetts. 

It was typical practice for a wagon train to accompany a Handcart group to help carry cargo because the handcart travelers could carry so little in the way of belongings on their handcarts. 

Edited to add: No, I’m wrong and you are right. I just checked and the name was Hodgetts. Well done. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

True. 

But I think the name was Hodges, not Hodgetts. 

It was typical practice for a wagon train to accompany a Handcart group to help carry cargo because the handcart travelers could carry so little in the way of belongings on their handcarts. 

Edited to add: No, I’m wrong and you are right. I just checked and the name was Hodgetts. Well done. 

A handcart company would typically include wagons as part of it but not a full wagon train.  The Willie handcart company had 5 wagons (https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/319/james-g-willie-company) and the Martin handcart company had 8 wagons (https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/192/edward-martin-company).  The first three handcart companies had 3, 2, and none (https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/111/edmund-ellsworth-company, https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/195/daniel-d-mc-arthur-company, https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/80/edward-bunker-company).

The Hunt and Hodgetts were entirely separate trains and were not part of the Willie and Martin companies.  The Hunt train had 56 wagons and ~300 people (https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/174/john-a-hunt-company) while the Hodgetts train had 33 wagons and ~130 people (https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/overlandtravel/companies/148/william-b-hodgetts-company).  They didn't travel together until near the end when everyone was needing to be rescued.

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