Jump to content
MustardSeed

When the Spirit is used as a manipulative tool

Recommended Posts

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I am astounded! 1-4 were my exact spiritual experiences with Sister Gui! Except for a few minor details...me driving to Washington instead of flying during summer break, Ocean Shores instead of LaPush, staying for 3 weeks instead of one (my mom was furious with me), we became engaged in October back at BYU because she was waiting for a missionary and wanted to be sure, 48th anniversary...I could have written this! Must be something about those lovely Washington ladies. Tacoma by any chance? Thanks for sharing this. 

My wife grew up mostly in Federal Way, but spent her last two years of high school in Poulsbo.  Her parents still live there.

And yes, Washington State does indeed seem to create some lovely people.  I feel very fortunate to not only have a wonderful wife, but wonderful parents-and-siblings-in-law as well.

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I actually come across as relatively quiet and unassuming until I open my mouth or I am teaching.

So am I. Wendy has introduced me to some of her long-time friends and they were all expecting some loud, brash American, and were either disappointed or gratified, not sure which.

Quote

I like myself though. As much as I dislike my ADHD sometimes I think the impulsivity and zaniness it accentuates are worth the drawbacks.

My feelings as well.  In fact, I am my best friend! 🙂 

Quote

C’mon over sometime. You can play with my little friends:

Vv8twoU.jpg

Yeah, sugar gliders are pretty neat!  I got a dose of ADD, so I can appreciate the ADHD.

In fact, I have so many projects (not just that novel I was talking about) that there's no way I can get to them all. Especially not this late in my life.  Interestingly, to me at least, when I picked up my wife from work today I was talking to her about some of the stuff on this message board, including our PMs earlier, and she said to me: "Why don't you stop talking about it, and just write the darned books already?!"  "Well, should I, really? I can think of reasons not to..."  "Forget why NOT to do it, just DO IT!"  I swear she was channelling Yoda.  

My ADD causes me to spread myself out over so many things that I have found it impossible to become bored.  Left entirely to myself without devices to poke at, things to read, and no music to listen to, I start thinking about cosmology, quantum mechanics and astrophysics -- and biology, technology, theology, and any old -ology you can name.  On the way home we passed a road named "Thalassa Road" and it spawned a thought chain involving plate tektonics. I had to tell Wendy all about it -- she's patient, fortunately, but sometimes I wonder if I'm going to wear her down.  It's great fun, but I am not getting as much done as I might if I were single-minded about something.

Squirrel!

Edited by Stargazer

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Hey, I said that already! Something Gerald Lund said in a talk to youth on personal revelation.  Is this same young lady do you think?  Or is it a nice story that has taken on a life of its own?

No, it was someone I know well. She possibly heard the story at some point and mimicked it.

Share this post


Link to post

I've never gotten a revelation of this sort.  Not even a "hormonal" one.  Nor has anyone else ever gotten such a revelation with respect to me.  I ain't holdin' my breath! :D 

Share this post


Link to post
21 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I've never gotten a revelation of this sort.  Not even a "hormonal" one.  Nor has anyone else ever gotten such a revelation with respect to me.  I ain't holdin' my breath! :D 

Never give up hope.  Lovely people such as yourself should absolutely hold breath for good things. 

Share this post


Link to post
43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, sugar gliders are pretty neat!  I got a dose of ADD, so I can appreciate the ADHD.

In fact, I have so many projects (not just that novel I was talking about) that there's no way I can get to them all. Especially not this late in my life.  Interestingly, to me at least, when I picked up my wife from work today I was talking to her about some of the stuff on this message board, including our PMs earlier, and she said to me: "Why don't you stop talking about it, and just write the darned books already?!"  "Well, should I, really? I can think of reasons not to..."  "Forget why NOT to do it, just DO IT!"  I swear she was channelling Yoda.  

My ADD causes me to spread myself out over so many things that I have found it impossible to become bored.  Left entirely to myself without devices to poke at, things to read, and no music to listen to, I start thinking about cosmology, quantum mechanics and astrophysics -- and biology, technology, theology, and any old -ology you can name.  On the way home we passed a road named "Thalassa Road" and it spawned a thought chain involving plate tektonics. I had to tell Wendy all about it -- she's patient, fortunately, but sometimes I wonder if I'm going to wear her down.  It's great fun, but I am not getting as much done as I might if I were single-minded about something.

Squirrel!

ADD and ADHD are the same thing. ADD is probably the better term but ADHD is the official one. If there is a distinction I am ADD because I do not have the hyperactivity. I am primarily inattentive.

Yeah, the rest of it sounds familiar.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Never give up hope.  Lovely people such as yourself should absolutely hold breath for good things. 

If I did that I would die of carbon dioxide poisoning, ;) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Funny enough, i had some version of number 1 happen to me. It was a friend at the time who liked me and i was oblivious to the fact up until a month before he told me himself. I had somewhat off handedly sought to know that he wasn’t it, not expecting much an answer because I wasn’t interested in him and had never felt anything past platonic affection towards him. Instead i felt very strong this “no” answer which surprised me that it was so clear and certain. It happened one more time when i was frustrated and down about a guy i was in love with at the time. When my friend finally told me his feelings i went through every rational reason on earth as to why this wouldn’t work. None of them mattered because he felt he’d had a prompting we were to be together. He then went with “have you ever prayed about it?” I could confidently answer that I had and God said nope! I soon decided it would be best to end the friendship, which he didn’t take well. Needless to say i never married him.

 Having one of those experiences and knowing a little background as to his answer from God. I do think he genuinely had a spiritual experience...but i think his hopes and desires led to a major misinterpretation. He wasn’t a bad guy, he just hopes beyond what God promised. 

 

On the other points, i think our tendency to get stuck in expectations tends toward these type of responses. Whether that be learning that only certain feelings are good or that the best form of spiritual expression is formal and silent. I dont know if most of them are trying to be manipulative. They’ve just gotten to the point of religious  zealousness that is overbearing as we put our expectations onto another unnecessarily. 

 

As for the salesman, If i’d felt snarky, i may have said “i do want the spirit in my home...which is why I don’t want your priestcraft on my doorstep.” :P Then shut the door. Jerk doesn’t have an excuse beyond wanting some sales. The  again, i also just don’t enjoy a ton of cliche LDS paraphernalia around my house

 

With luv,

BD 

 

Edited by BlueDreams
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I dont know if most of them are trying to be manipulative

As a side note, do you suppose anyone intends to be manipulative? 

My experience says most don’t plan to be malicious.  They just do what they think they need to do to get their needs met. And it ends up being manipulative.  If they are open to the feedback, they can be surprised to discover that indeed their behavior is manipulative. 

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

As a side note, do you suppose anyone intends to be manipulative? 

My experience says most don’t plan to be malicious.  They just do what they think they need to do to get their needs met. And it ends up being manipulative.  If they are open to the feedback, they can be surprised to discover that indeed their behavior is manipulative. 

I hope so. Living in ignorance is awful. I think I am mostly cognizant when I manipulate people. Sometimes it is habit but you work on that. Almost all human interaction (and interaction in general) is intended to manipulate others or ourselves. Hugging a crying child is emotional manipulation. If you mean only in the negative selfish sense where you manipulate someone to their detriment and your advantage then I still think so. Some avoid self-reflection like the plague but surely that just means they know what they are doing and just refuse to face it.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Never give up hope.  Lovely people such as yourself should absolutely hold breath for good things. 

Meh.  As fatalistic as it sounds, she, whomever she is and wherever she may be (or not), must choose to exercise her agency to explore the possibility of our having a long-term/eternal future together.  As much as I strive to keep my eyes, my ears, and my heart open, I don't think that's very likely at this point.  (Perhaps part of the problem is that whatever delusions I may or may not suffer from, I can tell you for absolute certain that one of them is not that, somehow, I think I'm God's Gift to Women. :rolleyes: )

I do thank you, though, for the kind words. :) 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2016/12/14/on-infrequent-attention-from-the-fairer-gender/

Edited by Kenngo1969

Share this post


Link to post
50 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

As a side note, do you suppose anyone intends to be manipulative? 

 ...

Oh, yes!  Perhaps it's simply that I've had more than an arm's length acquaintance with people who've seen The Dark Side of Life due to my relationships with people in law enforcement.  But manipulation is the very stock-in-trade of the sociopath.

Then again, I've always said that, while it's tempting for most law enforcement officers to believe that everyone who speaks to them is, to one degree or another, lying, the law, including the Constitution, demands that they believe otherwise: It's not presumed liars' job to prove that they're telling the truth; rather, it's law enforcement's job to prove that they're lying.  As tempting as it might be for those in law enforcement to succumb to that kind of pessimism, as I've also often said, even optimism which occasionally is betrayed still is better than pessimism which is always rewarded. :) 

Share this post


Link to post
23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

As a side note, do you suppose anyone intends to be manipulative? 

My experience says most don’t plan to be malicious.  They just do what they think they need to do to get their needs met. And it ends up being manipulative.  If they are open to the feedback, they can be surprised to discover that indeed their behavior is manipulative. 

Yes. I still remember meeting the first person in therapy who was genuinely manipulative. He would find ways to turn whatever problems there were in his marriage back on his wife...including when he had an affair. I’ve met a few who were very obviously manipulating to try and get what they want. Often to try and avoid consequence or accountability for their actions. Or to control another. I think many in the moment don’t write themselves as the bad guy per se....though some do through moments of shame. Luckily they’re rare, IMO 

 

There are those who i’m sure definitely don’t mean to be manipulative of course.

 

with luv, 

BD

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 7/23/2019 at 10:28 PM, MustardSeed said:

1. When I was at Ricks college my very first day in class my religion professor opened with the following caution- “young ladies don’t ever let a young man convince you to marry him by telling you that the Spirit confirmed that you are to be his wife.  That is coercive, and you are entitled to your own process”.  My feelers went up and never went down, apparently. 

2. One of the most abhorrent parenting practices I observed by a friend was when I heard her tell her crying 5 year old that God isn’t happy when we cry.  “Don’t you want to make God happy?” 

3. Later in life, a door to door salesman peddling Book of Mormon video tapes was getting no traction with me so he pulled the old “don’t you want the Spirit in your home?”  I threw him off my porch.  (Sorry for the repeat story here.)

4. Today, I heard it again.  I’m not the only one who responded this way, as people around me raised eyebrows as well.  I attended BYU  graduation for my kid (he made it lol!) and before the names were read, the speaker said what every other graduation requests- please no cheers so we can get thru the names- only it was said this way: “please no outbursts of cheering so we can maintain The Spirit during this event.”  

 Here are my thoughts- this was a graduation.  Not a sacrament meeting.  We clapped for the musical performance and they let us clap and really whoop it up at the end.  So in my mind this request had nothing to do with the Spirit and more to do with efficiency.  Efficiency is GREAT!  But to suggest it was about the Spirit felt like a falsehood and a manipulative ploy.  Certainly not all out intentional but probably just convenient for the speaker. 

I recognize I’m hard wired now to notice such things and may see them when others won’t and I might even be wrong.  

Thoughts? 

I think #2 and #4 represent more the misappropriation/misapplication by the unenlightened of a spiritual concept into a culture's mores than they are of intentional manipulation. #3, considering the market and the product as well, and is also a manipulative (sales) device. #1 is spot-on.

Edited by CV75

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think #2 and #4 represent more the misappropriation/misapplication by the unenlightened of a spiritual concept into a culture's mores than they are of intentional manipulation. #3, considering the market and the product as well, and is also a manipulative (sales) device. #1 is spot-on.

If I wanted to buy the Holy Ghost I would go talk to Simon.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Meh.  As fatalistic as it sounds, she, whomever she is and wherever she may be (or not), must choose to exercise her agency to explore the possibility of our having a long-term/eternal future together.  As much as I strive to keep my eyes, my ears, and my heart open, I don't think that's very likely at this point.  (Perhaps part of the problem is that whatever delusions I may or may not suffer from, I can tell you for absolute certain that one of them is not that, somehow, I think I'm God's Gift to Women. :rolleyes: )

I do thank you, though, for the kind words. :) 

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2016/12/14/on-infrequent-attention-from-the-fairer-gender/

Heh, I was just about to PM you, but you've either disabled that feature or you have a restraining order against me (just kidding).

Anyway, you know that blog post of yours about Megyn Kelly and Charles Koch?  The link you put on your FB page about Ms Kelly reblogging it now goes to a dead link -- apparently her site is gone. Do you actually still "do Facebook"?

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If I wanted to buy the Holy Ghost I would go talk to Simon.

Master Mahan will give it to for free. Promise!

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Funny enough, i had some version of number 1 happen to me. It was a friend at the time who liked me and i was oblivious to the fact up until a month before he told me himself. I had somewhat off handedly sought to know that he wasn’t it, not expecting much an answer because I wasn’t interested in him and had never felt anything past platonic affection towards him. Instead i felt very strong this “no” answer which surprised me that it was so clear and certain. It happened one more time when i was frustrated and down about a guy i was in love with at the time. When my friend finally told me his feelings i went through every rational reason on earth as to why this wouldn’t work. None of them mattered because he felt he’d had a prompting we were to be together. He then went with “have you ever prayed about it?” I could confidently answer that I had and God said nope! I soon decided it would be best to end the friendship, which he didn’t take well. Needless to say i never married him.

 Having one of those experiences and knowing a little background as to his answer from God. I do think he genuinely had a spiritual experience...but i think his hopes and desires led to a major misinterpretation. He wasn’t a bad guy, he just hopes beyond what God promised. 

 

On the other points, i think our tendency to get stuck in expectations tends toward these type of responses. Whether that be learning that only certain feelings are good or that the best form of spiritual expression is formal and silent. I dont know if most of them are trying to be manipulative. They’ve just gotten to the point of religious  zealousness that is overbearing as we put our expectations onto another unnecessarily. 

 

As for the salesman, If i’d felt snarky, i may have said “i do want the spirit in my home...which is why I don’t want your priestcraft on my doorstep.” :P Then shut the door. Jerk doesn’t have an excuse beyond wanting some sales. The  again, i also just don’t enjoy a ton of cliche LDS paraphernalia around my house

 

With luv,

BD 

 

Different POV here.  

Its my opinion that when we pray about a potential mate, God’s answer to us is largely his revealing  to us our own truth rather than a prediction of future success or eternal fate or anything predetermined. 

He is telling us (imo of course, because none of us know, as none of it is scriptural) that we love this person enough to do the hard work of marriage. 

So I think possibly both you and your boyfriend got accurate answers.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

As a side note, do you suppose anyone intends to be manipulative? 

My experience says most don’t plan to be malicious.  They just do what they think they need to do to get their needs met. And it ends up being manipulative.  If they are open to the feedback, they can be surprised to discover that indeed their behavior is manipulative. 

I had a good friend who was the “salesman” type and was very aware she could manipulate people. She was very good at it. Was she malicious? Depended on what she wanted from people.This trait has served her well as she reentered the workforce.  She now makes a lot of money selling things.

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I had a good friend who was the “salesman” type and was very aware she could manipulate people. She was very good at it. Was she malicious? Depended on what she wanted from people.This trait has served her well as she reentered the workforce.  She now makes a lot of money selling things.

I’m manipulative but don’t always realize it in the moment.  

Arent we all? 

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m manipulative but don’t always realize it in the moment.  

Arent we all? 

She knows exactly what she’s doing when she’s doing it. We once had a long conversation about her talent in this area. Really, it’s what makes her successful at her job. Like most things, it can be a good thing or abused...she did a bit of both. 

I think the word “manipulative” generally has negative connotations. To me it’s being persuasive in a sneaky way. 

Share this post


Link to post
26 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

She knows exactly what she’s doing when she’s doing it. We once had a long conversation about her talent in this area. Really, it’s what makes her successful at her job. Like most things, it can be a good thing or abused...she did a bit of both. 

I think the word “manipulative” generally has negative connotations. To me it’s being persuasive in a sneaky way. 

22 Now Ammon being wise, yet harmless, he said unto Lamoni: Wilt thou hearken unto my words, if I tell thee by what power I do these things? And this is the thing that I desire of thee.
23 And the king answered him, and said: Yea, I will believe all thy words. And thus he was caught with guile.

Fortunately a lot of human interaction is positive and our attempts to manipulate are out of kindness. A smile is often an attempt to manipulate someone towards happiness.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

22 Now Ammon being wise, yet harmless, he said unto Lamoni: Wilt thou hearken unto my words, if I tell thee by what power I do these things? And this is the thing that I desire of thee.
23 And the king answered him, and said: Yea, I will believe all thy words. And thus he was caught with guile.

Fortunately a lot of human interaction is positive and our attempts to manipulate are out of kindness. A smile is often an attempt to manipulate someone towards happiness.

Too bad we don’t have a word for that in English.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Heh, I was just about to PM you, but you've either disabled that feature or you have a restraining order against me (just kidding).

Anyway, you know that blog post of yours about Megyn Kelly and Charles Koch?  The link you put on your FB page about Ms Kelly reblogging it now goes to a dead link -- apparently her site is gone. Do you actually still "do Facebook"?

Heh.  I had forgotten I put a link to Ms. Kelly's page on Facebook.  No, you're right.  I don't spend a lot of time there.  While I'm not given to undue paranoia, I don't really like spending time where (however unlikely the prospect) I might be "tracked."

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 7/26/2019 at 6:57 AM, MustardSeed said:

Different POV here.  

Its my opinion that when we pray about a potential mate, God’s answer to us is largely his revealing  to us our own truth rather than a prediction of future success or eternal fate or anything predetermined. 

He is telling us (imo of course, because none of us know, as none of it is scriptural) that we love this person enough to do the hard work of marriage. 

So I think possibly both you and your boyfriend got accurate answers.

:)

Oh he wasn’t my boyfriend. Ever. He was just a friend that kept developing crushes on me over several years. No matter how much i would reassert that I wasn’t interested in him like that, it would happen again. The last one was the only one he interpreted his spiritual answer to stay friends with me to possibly mean we’d end up together.

i personally don’t doubt that he received revelation to stay friends with me...i doubted his interpretation of what that meant for us long-term. 

I’m not sure what you mean by revealing our own truth. What does that look like to you? 

For me when I finally did meet my husband   we had a very very short dating period...of which I wasn’t dating him exclusively and neither of us would consider ourselves bd/gf. I don’t think the opinion you gave fits my personal experience. The experience was inherently spiritually contrived and strongly confirmed. The short story is that our future daughter helped set us up. And in the temple when i went to confirm it i came away knowing that what i was receiving was a gift from God. And that i would need go treat it as such.

I don’t know how marriage partners work with God...or even if it’s the same thing for each person. For me I didn’t describe him as a soul mate. But I definitely felt like i knew him for far longer than i did. I described him as my PB Did: my best friend...for longer than the 13 days we dated before getting unofficially  engaged.

 

with luv,

Bd

Edited by BlueDreams
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...