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Mark Beesley

Killing Saints

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1 hour ago, blarsen said:

I find it astonishing that with almost two more pages of comments after my last one, no one picks up on how the 'just war' concept fits into all this. 

I think we were arguing rather too strenuously over something else to take notice, sorry.  I saw what you wrote and wanted to address it, but I was drilling into poor Mark Beesley too much to take the time.  I really should take a chill pill.

1 hour ago, blarsen said:

For me, if a fellow saint attacks me or mine unjustly, he'll run into a vigorous defense, even to the point of being killed.  If a fellow saint is part of an army involved in directly attacking my country without provocation (though we shouldn't be engaged in 'provocation', either), he/she put themselves in the way of being killed.  Not really anymore complicated than that, nor should it be.

There are genuine pacifists out there, and if they really want to take their position seriously I'll try not to be too annoyed at them.

Problem with pacifism is that if there are too many pacifists out there it actually encourages the bad guys by failing to discourage them from violence.  If there are too many walking carpets out there who will not stand up for themselves, who will dissuade the evil acts?

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Huh.  Just what would preventative measures look like?  How much would they cost?  Who would employ them?  How much of my personal liberty would be curtailed by them?

Minority Report.

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58 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I will be the last person to claim military personnel are well paid but your pay scale leaves out the other benefits provided including housing (or housing allowance) and things like combat pay.

<Stargazer shakes head in wonder>

Since you are clearly not speaking from experience, let me tell you from my experience that the pay and benefits are not as rich as you seem to think. Currently, a buck sergeant (E-5) with 4 years of service makes $2800 per month. The bennies you think of so highly do not actually make up for it.  Have fun trying to raise a family on that rate of pay. As for combat pay, do you really think that the extra $225 makes all that much difference?  I was never in combat, but let me tell you that infantrymen being shot at might be glad of that little bonus, but it surely is NOT worth it.

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13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Minority Report.

Exactly what I was thinking. Now, we just need to find ourselves some pre-cogs. ;) 

 

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13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Minority Report.

That's what I was thinking.

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Just now, Stargazer said:

<Stargazer shakes head in wonder>

Since you are clearly not speaking from experience, let me tell you from my experience that the pay and benefits are not as rich as you seem to think. Currently, a buck sergeant (E-5) with 4 years of service makes $2800 per month. The bennies you think of so highly do not actually make up for it.  Have fun trying to raise a family on that rate of pay. As for combat pay, do you really think that the extra $225 makes all that much difference?  I was never in combat, but let me tell you that infantrymen being shot at might be glad of that little bonus, but it surely is NOT worth it.

I specifically said that enlisted soldiers are not being paid well even after figuring in benefits. I do not know where you got the idea that I think they are “rich”.

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27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Criminals do respect social rules, just not all of them. They even have their own. We credit Cain for the first draft of those.

It is not so much fear of violence that prevents revolutions as a belief that it will not work or even a fear that it will not make things better.

Not to answer you on this, necessarily, but did you ever read Solzhenitsyn's "Gulag Archipelago"  Long read, I know, but if you ever want to get horribly depressed, all three volumes would do the trick nicely.  He credited fear of failure to rebel to the belief that "they" wouldn't really do that, would they?  Alas, they most certainly would, and did.

Early rebellion is always best.

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4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I specifically said that enlisted soldiers are not being paid well even after figuring in benefits. I do not know where you got the idea that I think they are “rich”.

I didn't say you thought they were rich, I said they were "not as rich as you seemed to think".  There's a subtle difference.  And it really sounded as if you thought the bennies including combat bonus made up for a lot.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The great “open secret” of law enforcement is that almost all of its actions are palliative and after the fact.

I don't understand.  You are faulting law enforcement officers for crimes they did not prevent?  What are the parameters you have in mind in which police would be better equipped at before-the-fact law enforcement?  Mass surveillance?  Mandatory snitching?  Mass incarceration of potential baddies?

Our society works because the bulk of its populace willingly follows the law.  They do this perhaps partly out of fear of punishment, but mostly because it is the right thing to do.  Hence we get this famous aphorism from John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Our system of laws is reliant on most of us following the law voluntarily, as a moral/religious precept.  Our system of government does not otherwise work.  

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They investigate more crimes then they prevent.

Again, I am flummoxed at your point.  What is it?  What steps do you propose to improve law enforcement's ability to prevent crime?

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Most crime is prevented by social rules. Almost no criminal believes they will be caught.

Okay.  But the issue here is that when crime is not prevented, when lawbreaking is iminent or in progress or after-the-fact, we need law enforcement to investigate and help prosecute the lawbreakers.  Put them in prison and keep them out of the general populace so as to prevent them from committing more crimes.

I really don't understand your point.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Fear is a poor motivator for behavior.

It is a base motivator, yes.  But it can be a pretty good one.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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32 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Minority Report.

 

19 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Exactly what I was thinking. Now, we just need to find ourselves some pre-cogs. ;) 

 

 

19 minutes ago, USU78 said:

That's what I was thinking.

Ya, not so much 😁

My philosophies on crime probably stems from my philosophy and practice of medicine.  As a public health nurse, prevention is what it’s all about.  I could go on and on about what is wrong with our health care system and how we are investing primarily in the wrong end of care.  I am thoroughly convinced that our health care system could be fixed and the health and well-being of our society generally improved by investing primarily in prevention instead of treatment.  We are doing it backwards and it is not working very well.

I believe that crime should be treated like a disease, where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand.  You are faulting law enforcement officers for crimes they did not prevent?  What are the parameters you have in mind in which police would be better equipped at before-the-fact law enforcement?  Mass surveillance?  Mandatory snitching?  Mass incarceration of potential baddies?

Our society works because the bulk of its populace willingly follows the law.  They do this perhaps partly out of fear of punishment, but mostly because it is the right thing to do.  Hence we get this famous aphorism from John Adams: "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious People. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Our system of laws is reliant on most of us following the law voluntarily, as a moral/religious precept.  Our system of government does not otherwise work.  

Again, I am flummoxed at your point.  What is it?  What steps do you propose to improve law enforcement's ability to prevent crime?

Okay.  But the issue here is that when crime is not prevented, when lawbreaking is iminent or in progress or after-the-fact, we need law enforcement to investigate and help prosecute the lawbreakers.  Put them in prison and keep them out of the general populace so as to prevent them from committing more crimes.

I really don't understand your point.

It is a base motivator, yes.  But it can be a pretty good one.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I was not suggesting there is anything law enforcement can do remove this weakness. It just is.

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5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I was not suggesting there is anything law enforcement can do remove this weakness. It just is.

Well, that's how I took it.  

I think Spencer was looking too hard for criticism in this case. 🙂 

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22 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ya, not so much 😁

My philosophies on crime probably stems from my philosophy and practice of medicine.  As a public health nurse, prevention is what it’s all about.  I could go on and on about what is wrong with our health care system and how we are investing primarily in the wrong end of care.  I am thoroughly convinced that our health care system could be fixed and the health and well-being of our society generally improved by investing primarily in prevention instead of treatment.  We are doing it backwards and it is not working very well.

I believe that crime should be treated like a disease, where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I for one welcome our new surveillance overlords!

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1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

I for one welcome our new surveillance overlords!

😂🤣😂

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17 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, that's how I took it.  

I think Spencer was looking too hard for criticism in this case. 🙂 

Fair enough.  I apologize for any offense I gave.

Thanks,

-Smac

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I assume “rough” in this case does not just mean knowing how to fight but a kind of moral coarseness about violence that I do not believe should be condoned.

Why would you assume that?

(never mind, I think I was answered in later posts)

Edited by Calm

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15 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I for one welcome our new surveillance overlords!

I’ve only read about the movie and haven’t seen it.  I’m guessing that is from minority report.

Prevention doesn’t have to be about liberal governmental overreach, surveillance, coercion, or restriction of personal liberties...

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I’ve only read about the movie and haven’t seen it.  I’m guessing that is from minority report.

Prevention doesn’t have to be about liberal governmental overreach, surveillance, coercion, or restriction of personal liberties...

Not actually! There was a 1977 Joan Collins film, Empire of the Ants, that might have inspired it, but apparently the first occurrence was on The Simpsons in 1994.

Check out WHERE THE EXPRESSION “I FOR ONE WELCOME OUR NEW X OVERLORDS” CAME FROM

No, it doesn't have to be, but here in the UK with cameras all over the place, they still can't prevent crime, or find the perps any more than previously. So surveillance isn't the answer, my tongue-in-cheek response notwithstanding.

Edited by Stargazer

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The Anti-Nephi Lehi's make a good case for pacifism.  The 2000 Stripling Warriers make a good case against it.  When it comes right down to it, Jiminy Cricket had the solution: "Always let your conscience be your guide."

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Since you are clearly not speaking from experience, let me tell you from my experience that the pay and benefits are not as rich as you seem to think

Quote

I will be the last person to claim military personnel are well paid

I don't think Nehor was arguing good pay, but just going for accuracy.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

 

Ya, not so much 😁

My philosophies on crime probably stems from my philosophy and practice of medicine.  As a public health nurse, prevention is what it’s all about.  I could go on and on about what is wrong with our health care system and how we are investing primarily in the wrong end of care.  I am thoroughly convinced that our health care system could be fixed and the health and well-being of our society generally improved by investing primarily in prevention instead of treatment.  We are doing it backwards and it is not working very well.

I believe that crime should be treated like a disease, where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

👍

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

I believe that crime should be treated like a disease, where an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I'm just curious about what you would recommend in terms of 'an ounce of prevention'?

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2 minutes ago, blarsen said:

I'm just curious about what you would recommend in terms of 'an ounce of prevention'?

One suggestion: Leverage technology to affect preemptive health decisions.  I've had a Fitbit for about two weeks, and it is already improving my daily routine.

Thanks,

-Smac

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On 7/23/2019 at 3:36 PM, Oliblish said:

Reminds me of a poem:

 

The Man He Killed

 
"Had he and I but met 
            By some old ancient inn, 
We should have sat us down to wet 
            Right many a nipperkin! 
 
            "But ranged as infantry, 
            And staring face to face, 
I shot at him as he at me, 
            And killed him in his place. 
 
            "I shot him dead because — 
            Because he was my foe, 
Just so: my foe of course he was; 
            That's clear enough; although 
 
            "He thought he'd 'list, perhaps, 
            Off-hand like — just as I — 
Was out of work — had sold his traps — 
            No other reason why. 
 
            "Yes; quaint and curious war is! 
            You shoot a fellow down 
You'd treat if met where any bar is, 
            Or help to half-a-crown." 

Love Hardy. And then there’s this.....

Quote

Strange Meeting

Wilfred Owen

It seemed that out of battle I escaped 
Down some profound dull tunnel, long since scooped 
Through granites which titanic wars had groined. 
 
Yet also there encumbered sleepers groaned, 
Too fast in thought or death to be bestirred. 
Then, as I probed them, one sprang up, and stared 
With piteous recognition in fixed eyes, 
Lifting distressful hands, as if to bless. 
And by his smile, I knew that sullen hall,— 
By his dead smile I knew we stood in Hell. 
 
With a thousand fears that vision's face was grained; 
Yet no blood reached there from the upper ground, 
And no guns thumped, or down the flues made moan. 
“Strange friend,” I said, “here is no cause to mourn.” 
“None,” said that other, “save the undone years, 
The hopelessness. Whatever hope is yours, 
Was my life also; I went hunting wild 
After the wildest beauty in the world, 
Which lies not calm in eyes, or braided hair, 
But mocks the steady running of the hour, 
And if it grieves, grieves richlier than here. 
For by my glee might many men have laughed, 
And of my weeping something had been left, 
Which must die now. I mean the truth untold, 
The pity of war, the pity war distilled. 
Now men will go content with what we spoiled. 
Or, discontent, boil bloody, and be spilled. 
They will be swift with swiftness of the tigress. 
None will break ranks, though nations trek from progress. 
Courage was mine, and I had mystery; 
Wisdom was mine, and I had mastery: 
To miss the march of this retreating world 
Into vain citadels that are not walled. 
Then, when much blood had clogged their chariot-wheels, 
I would go up and wash them from sweet wells, 
Even with truths that lie too deep for taint. 
I would have poured my spirit without stint 
But not through wounds; not on the cess of war. 
Foreheads of men have bled where no wounds were. 
 
“I am the enemy you killed, my friend. 
I knew you in this dark: for so you frowned 
Yesterday through me as you jabbed and killed. 
I parried; but my hands were loath and cold. 
Let us sleep now. . . .”

 

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