bdouglas Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 From last month's Atlantic Monthly—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/ Questions for Catholic board members (if there are any) and LDS who are interested in and like the Catholic church (as I do)—— Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class? On the other hand, can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)? Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place? (P.S. - Best to read article before commenting.) Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Almost as interesting as the article itself are the reader comments—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/the-conversation/592753/ Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Interesting parallels between the LDS endowment and the "ontological changes" brought about through the sacrament of Holy Orders. Either we are more Catholic than I thought or they are more LDS in using different types of oils and annointings, washing of the feet etc in their Holy Orders liturgy . I recall Paul speaking of "bodies celestial" etc. http://frjoeshomilies.net/03-28-13.html But where the problem lies I think is the idea that "making love" for us is not at all "making love" for Catholics since the idea of the purpose of marriage is making babies alone for Catholics while we sanctify love making because it is.... love. Perhaps that is why making love alone when blocked with contraceptives is sinful but making babies is praiseworthy. There seems to be a separation there. I suppose a truly asexual virginal priest who in good faith keeps celibate might not understand that making love has many other functions within a marriage than making babies Edited July 23, 2019 by mfbukowski Link to comment
rpn Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) Since when do we --- members of the restored church of Jesus Christ---believe that endorsing celibacy is "infantilizing" those unmarried people who embrace it? Edited July 24, 2019 by rpn 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 minute ago, rpn said: Since when do believe that endorsing celibacy is "infantilizing" those unmarried people who embrace it? I believe that is a fair assessment. Link to comment
Storm Rider Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 First, not a big fan of the Atlantic for things religious or capable of making recommendations to any religious institution. Second, the author starts off by listing all of the evil committed by individuals since the 18th century while completely ignoring all the works of righteousness done at the same time by other Religious, priests, etc. If we are going to condemn an organization then it is important to review the entire organization. There was a time when I thought there was little in common between the Church and the Catholic church. The more I have studied the more I find commonality and have an abiding respect for Catholic service to humanity, her encouragement to seek holiness and righteousness, and its ability to meet challenges. She is not perfect, but I do respect her. The percentage of priests and Religious that commit horrible sins is significantly smaller than those who honor their vows and live a godly life. I strongly dislike these types of articles that have such a narrow focus and it is unfortunate. Why can't we just treat topics fairly? McGarry failed miserably with this article. Score another one for the Atlantic. 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Storm Rider said: First, not a big fan of the Atlantic for things religious or capable of making recommendations to any religious institution. Second, the author starts off by listing all of the evil committed by individuals since the 18th century while completely ignoring all the works of righteousness done at the same time by other Religious, priests, etc. If we are going to condemn an organization then it is important to review the entire organization. There was a time when I thought there was little in common between the Church and the Catholic church. The more I have studied the more I find commonality and have an abiding respect for Catholic service to humanity, her encouragement to seek holiness and righteousness, and its ability to meet challenges. She is not perfect, but I do respect her. The percentage of priests and Religious that commit horrible sins is significantly smaller than those who honor their vows and live a godly life. I strongly dislike these types of articles that have such a narrow focus and it is unfortunate. Why can't we just treat topics fairly? McGarry failed miserably with this article. Score another one for the Atlantic. There is a difference between “not perfect” and “continuing and repeated patterns of abuse and coverup worldwide”. Lately they have been railing against the journalists and lawyers exposing them. (Insert lawyer joke here) Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, rpn said: Since when do believe that endorsing celibacy is "infantilizing" those unmarried people who embrace it? From the Washington Post, "I Attended Seminary in the 1960s": https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/19/i-attended-seminary-in-the-1960s-priests-of-my-generation-need-to-look-within/?utm_term=.b181744a0b6a Quote from article: Quote From my personal experience, I would guess that obligatory celibacy plays an important role. To paraphrase Saint Paul, for some people the burning sexual energy cannot and should not be contained. The effort often infantilizes men, subverting normal sexual urges into strange pathways, blocking sexual maturity For a few priests, celibacy appears to deepen devotion to God; many simply ignore it; for others it is a source of malaise and unhappiness. For far too many men, it has led to criminal depravity. Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Storm Rider said: First, not a big fan of the Atlantic for things religious or capable of making recommendations to any religious institution. Second, the author starts off by listing all of the evil committed by individuals since the 18th century while completely ignoring all the works of righteousness done at the same time by other Religious, priests, etc. If we are going to condemn an organization then it is important to review the entire organization. There was a time when I thought there was little in common between the Church and the Catholic church. The more I have studied the more I find commonality and have an abiding respect for Catholic service to humanity, her encouragement to seek holiness and righteousness, and its ability to meet challenges. She is not perfect, but I do respect her. The percentage of priests and Religious that commit horrible sins is significantly smaller than those who honor their vows and live a godly life. I strongly dislike these types of articles that have such a narrow focus and it is unfortunate. Why can't we just treat topics fairly? McGarry failed miserably with this article. Score another one for the Atlantic. The author of the article is a former priest and a devout Catholic. He says, among other things—— Quote The virtues of the Catholic faith have been obvious to me my whole life. The world is better for those virtues, and I cherish the countless men and women who bring the faith alive. The Catholic Church is a worldwide community of well over 1 billion people. North and South, rich and poor, intellectual and illiterate——it is the only institution that crosses all such borders on anything like this scale. As James Joyce wrote in Finnegans Wake, Catholic means “Here Comes Everybody.” Around the world there are more than 200,000 Catholic schools and nearly 40,000 Catholic hospitals and health-care facilities, mostly in developing countries. The Church is the largest nongovernmental organization on the planet, through which selfless women and men care for the poor, teach the unlettered, heal the sick, and work to preserve minimal standards of the common good. The world needs the Church of these legions to be rational, historically minded, pluralistic, committed to peace, a champion of the equality of women, and a tribune of justice. Nobody, and especially not the author of this article, is discounting all of the good the Catholic church has done and continues to do. Edited July 23, 2019 by bdouglas 2 Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Interesting parallels between the LDS endowment and the "ontological changes" brought about through the sacrament of Holy Orders. I was asked the other day, "If you couldn't be Mormon, what would you be?" I said, "Well I could never be an atheist or agnostic. I couldn't be a Jew because Jews are not very open to converts. Becoming an Evangelical would be out of the question, not in the realm of possibility for me. I think I would become a Catholic." I have been listening to the audiobook "An Unquenchable Thirst" and find all of the parallels between Catholicism and Mormonism very interesting. 2 Link to comment
3DOP Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, bdouglas said: From last month's Atlantic Monthly—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/ Questions for Catholic board members (if there are any) and LDS who are interested in and like the Catholic church (as I do)—— Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class? On the other hand, can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)? Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place? (P.S. - Best to read article before commenting.) I can't read all of it. I appreciate your question though about the Catholic Church. You ask, "Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class?" Has it been established that the Catholic Church has a valid priesthood? If survival means existence, it has "survived" without its clerical class for almost 2,000 years 4 hours ago, bdouglas said: From last month's Atlantic Monthly—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/ Questions for Catholic board members (if there are any) and LDS who are interested in and like the Catholic church (as I do)—— Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class? On the other hand, can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)? Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place? (P.S. - Best to read article before commenting.) Per your P.S., I read it all. I agreed with a lot. I liked him. He is still searching...trying to find meaning, Catholic meaning in his life. He is still a priest, but he isn't sure about it. By God's good grace, he can't get away from his baptism, let alone his confirmation and ordination! God help him to find his way back home. I disagreed with a lot. This priest/man is a child of his and our times. Storm Rider caught this fast. I am a Traditional Catholic. I am probably affected by the narrowness of today as I continually try to emphasize the broad yesterday, that which has endured, must be more important than some novelty today that imagines it can sweep away the centuries. That which lasts for "1700 years" cannot be dismissed in a mere generation, this well meaning priest's/fellow's lifetime. He isn't even a thousand years old! He remembers Vatican II! Only fifty years ago, he understands a lot. But doesn't the Vatican II generation need to show their staying power for another millenium and then some? Allow me to address the questions for "Catholic board members (if there are any)": 1) "Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class?" Answer: No. You LDS already make this the issue, saying that the priesthood has to be restored. The Catholic's only defense is that it was never lost. 2) "...can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)"? Answer: Yes, certainly. While showing the voluminous evidence that consecrated celibacy never results in "the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy", except when it is divorced from traditional standards of vocational discernment. The celibate priesthood will continue affirming the value of consecrated celibacy in our age as explained by the prophets, by Christ, by the Apostles, and by the Church of which Christ is the Head. 3) "Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place?" Answer: No. The Catholic Church which is committed to the Council of this author/priest who was young at the time...the Conciliar Church...I do not speak for. I am attached to Eternal Rome, the Catholic Church of ALL times. She is necessarily at liberty as she has been since Pentecost and will be until the Nuptial vows are consummated. The enemy can do nothing, can do nothing, can do nothing, to the spotless Bride of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church. If 100,000 of the devil's duly ordained priests and bishops live in such a way as to earn eternal Hell, they cannot sully the Immaculate Bride. For what it is worth. Knight of the Woeful Countenance! Thanks for your interest and the timely article. Not my perspective, but boy it made a lot of sense that this author would be treading these paths. Regards, 3DOP Edited July 23, 2019 by 3DOP 1 Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, 3DOP said: I can't read all of it. I appreciate your question though about the Catholic Church. You ask, "Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class?" Has it been established that the Catholic Church has a valid priesthood? If survival means existence, it has "survived" without its clerical class for almost 2,000 years Per your P.S., I read it all. I agreed with a lot. I liked him. He is still searching...trying to find meaning, Catholic meaning in his life. He is still a priest, but he isn't sure about it. By God's good grace, he can't get away from his baptism, let alone his confirmation and ordination! God help him to find his way back home. I disagreed with a lot. This priest/man is a child of his and our times. Storm Rider caught this fast. I am a Traditional Catholic. I am probably affected by the narrowness of today as I continually try to emphasize the broad yesterday, that which has endured, must be more important than some novelty today that imagines it can sweep away the centuries. That which lasts for "1700 years" cannot be dismissed in a mere generation, this well meaning priest's/fellow's lifetime. He isn't even a thousand years old! He remembers Vatican II! Only fifty years ago, he understands a lot. But doesn't the Vatican II generation need to show their staying power for another millenium and then some? Allow me to address the questions for "Catholic board members (if there are any)": 1) "Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class?" Answer: No. You LDS already make this the issue, saying that the priesthood has to be restored. The Catholic's only defense is that it was never lost. 2) "...can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)"? Answer: Yes, certainly. While showing the voluminous evidence that consecrated celibacy never results in "the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy", except when it is divorced from traditional standards of vocational discernment. The celibate priesthood will continue affirming the value of consecrated celibacy in our age as explained by the prophets, by Christ, by the Apostles, and by the Church of which Christ is the Head. 3) "Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place?" Answer: No. The Catholic Church which is committed to the Council of this author/priest who was young at the time...the Conciliar Church...I do not speak for. I am attached to Eternal Rome, the Catholic Church of ALL times. She is necessarily at liberty as she has been since Pentecost and will be until the Nuptial vows are consummated. The enemy can do nothing, can do nothing, can do nothing, to the spotless Bride of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Catholic Church. If 100,000 of the devil's duly ordained priests and bishops live in such a way as to earn eternal Hell, they cannot sully the Immaculate Bride. For what it is worth. Knight of the Woeful Countenance! Thanks for your interest and the timely article. Not my perspective, but boy it made a lot of sense that this author would be treading these paths. Regards, 3DOP Thank you, 3DOP, for your perspective. My wife was Catholic for 25 years, and although she is now LDS, she retains much of her past Catholicism (and I wouldn't rid of her of this even if I could). I love the Catholic church, and I love the Catholic novelist Graham Greene. The Power and the Glory is my favorite 20th century novel. There is one thing I disagree with you on, and that is, "Can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood?" I don't think it can. I think it should at least give priests (and nuns) the option of being celibate or marrying. I don't think celibacy is practically possible in the modern world nor do I think it is a good idea. Link to comment
Storm Rider Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, bdouglas said: The author of the article is a former priest and a devout Catholic. He says, among other things—— Nobody, and especially not the author of this article, is discounting all of the good the Catholic church has done and continues to do. Except that he wants to do away with the priesthood of the Catholic Church and the majority of the article excludes all the good the Catholic Church has done while focusing on the worst examples of their faith. Does that sound fair or am I missing something? I am somewhat familiar with McGarry. I know that he was a priest. Devout Catholic is not for me to say, but it does bring a question to mind. Would a devout Latter-day Saint propose that we do away with the priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ? The challenge is defining "devout" I guess. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: Except that he wants to do away with the priesthood of the Catholic Church and the majority of the article excludes all the good the Catholic Church has done while focusing on the worst examples of their faith. Does that sound fair or am I missing something? I am somewhat familiar with McGarry. I know that he was a priest. Devout Catholic is not for me to say, but it does bring a question to mind. Would a devout Latter-day Saint propose that we do away with the priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ? The challenge is defining "devout" I guess. He did actually talk a bit about the good it has done. He focused on the worst because that’s was what the article was about. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 8 hours ago, bdouglas said: From last month's Atlantic Monthly—— https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/to-save-the-church-dismantle-the-priesthood/588073/ Questions for Catholic board members (if there are any) and LDS who are interested in and like the Catholic church (as I do)—— Could Catholicism survive the dismantling of the priesthood i.e. its clerical class? On the other hand, can Catholicism survive if it retains its celibate priesthood (with the attendant infantilization of priests and psychological and emotional disfigurement that can and often does result from self-imposed celibacy)? Is the Catholic church caught between a rock and a hard place?.................................. The author, James Carroll, is delusional to think that anything like his recommendations could save Roman Catholicism. First because it could never happen. Second because he is primarily being nostalgic (memoria praeteritorum bonorum). His article merely reinforces the concept of Apostasy. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 hours ago, Storm Rider said: Except that he wants to do away with the priesthood of the Catholic Church and the majority of the article excludes all the good the Catholic Church has done while focusing on the worst examples of their faith. Does that sound fair or am I missing something? I am somewhat familiar with McGarry. I know that he was a priest. Devout Catholic is not for me to say, but it does bring a question to mind. Would a devout Latter-day Saint propose that we do away with the priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ? The challenge is defining "devout" I guess. Catholicism relies heavily claims of apostolic authority. To give that up would dissolve the church. Might as well be Baptist. It's not going to happen 3 Link to comment
USU78 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) Regarding the OP's question: I can't imagine something less my business. Edited July 24, 2019 by USU78 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, USU78 said: Regarding the OP's question: I can't imagine something less my business. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, bdouglas said: I was asked the other day, "If you couldn't be Mormon, what would you be?" I said, "Well I could never be an atheist or agnostic. I couldn't be a Jew because Jews are not very open to converts. Becoming an Evangelical would be out of the question, not in the realm of possibility for me. I think I would become a Catholic." I have been listening to the audiobook "An Unquenchable Thirst" and find all of the parallels between Catholicism and Mormonism very interesting. I would probably choose Orthodoxy but as a mystic it is pretty easy for me to overlook all the man made stories found in any religion. In my heart of hearts I am probably something like what a Christian Buddhist would be. I would like to think that I can go straight to The Source myself and have never seen a reason to think otherwise. I believe God can communicate even with stubborn little worms like me, and wants to in fact. Jesus was a pretty self-confident guy, and that is what he did. I would stay some kind of Christian for sure because I have a testimony that Jesus was the Christ predicted by the prophets. That is based on personal revelation. But as far as all the mumbo-jumbo we tack on to that- all the manmade "theology"--- meh! I love the LDS interpretation and find its manmade theories the most solvent PLUS I have received heavy duty spiritual experiences confirming that this is where the Lord wants me. So I salute the Spirit and say "Yes Boss, I surrender!" and here I will remain. Edited July 24, 2019 by mfbukowski Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 18 hours ago, bdouglas said: I was asked the other day, "If you couldn't be Mormon, what would you be?" I said, "Well I could never be an atheist or agnostic. I couldn't be a Jew because Jews are not very open to converts. Becoming an Evangelical would be out of the question, not in the realm of possibility for me. I think I would become a Catholic." I have been listening to the audiobook "An Unquenchable Thirst" and find all of the parallels between Catholicism and Mormonism very interesting. A LUMBERJACK!!!!! Most likely I would slip into agnosticism or maybe worship Azathoth or Cthulhu ironically. Worst case my ego wins out and I start worshipping myself. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 hours ago, The Nehor said: Uh oh. Tea drinking apostate. Burn him at the stake. I am pretty fond of frogs legs anyway, got dibs on the legs. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, The Nehor said: A LUMBERJACK!!!!! Most likely I would slip into agnosticism or maybe worship Azathoth or Cthulhu ironically. Worst case my ego wins out and I start worshipping myself. There is a case to be made that it's all in our unconscious anyway. So that's not that far off. That's what a good Pragmatist would say anyway..... Link to comment
The Nehor Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Uh oh. Tea drinking apostate. Burn him at the stake. I am pretty fond of frogs legs anyway, got dibs on the legs. 1 Link to comment
bdouglas Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 hours ago, USU78 said: Regarding the OP's question: I can't imagine something less my business. Then why waste time bothering to comment? It is something why wife (a Catholic for 25 years) and I talk about over dinner. Link to comment
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