Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
snowflake

Hint of different denominations in the New Testament?

Recommended Posts

Mark 9: [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

This example of a Christ follower who was not following the Apostles.....huh?!?. He clearly has the power of Christ for he is casting out devils in Jesus' name. I'm not sure what to think about this passage. Evidence for a different denomination? 

Thoughts?

Praise be to God for his Word!

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Correct.  There are clearly different points of view in the NT writings, and not just between Hellenizers and Judaizers.  Not formal denominations, but some very divergent POVs, and that has continued down to the present day.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Correct.  There are clearly different points of view in the NT writings, and not just between Hellenizers and Judaizers.  Not formal denominations, but some very divergent POVs, and that has continued down to the present day.

Thanks for your response Robert, any other examples like this you can point to in scripture? 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Thanks for your response Robert, any other examples like this you can point to in scripture? 

There never was a singular institutional church during the NT times. This is why you see multiple references to different churches (communities) in different areas, with differences and occasional fighting between them. So rather than thinking of them in terms of different denominations of a single religion or church, it's better to think of them as different communities that were part of the larger movement begun by Jesus.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Thanks for your response Robert, any other examples like this you can point to in scripture? 

There is tension between belief in the cessation of spiritual gifts and prophecy (with closure of the Canon), 

Quote

I Cor 13:8-12 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

and the continuation of such:

Quote

Ephesians 2:20-21 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord."

Add to that the question of how to determine authentic prophecy, either by sola scriptura (does it cohere with Scripture?), or the Deuteronomic test (Deut 18:20-22) of  verification/falsification.

Many scholars maintain that Paul is primarily responsible for Christian theology as we know it, and that he upended the teachings of Jesus.  For example, Jesus emphasized works (as did his brother James), while Paul emphasized faith.

The additional problem of the enigmatic or esoteric post Resurrection teachings of Jesus has to be addressed, since they had such a profound effect on Christianity:  See https://fortydayministry.com/ .

Edited by Robert F. Smith
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, snowflake said:

Mark 9: [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

This example of a Christ follower who was not following the Apostles.....huh?!?. He clearly has the power of Christ for he is casting out devils in Jesus' name. I'm not sure what to think about this passage. Evidence for a different denomination? 

Thoughts?

Praise be to God for his Word!

 

I think the Book of Mormon helps with this, for example with 1 Nephi 14 :10 which I see as similar in sentiment to Mark 9:38, 39.

Faith in Christ can bring forth miracles without priesthood conferral or office, but not the mystery of godliness, which does require the organized "house of God" / "church of the living God." 1 Timothy 3 touches upon the priesthood, office and church organization through which we follow the body Christ through the advancing fruits of faith. The next two (and other) chapters are instructive in this regard as well.

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, snowflake said:

Mark 9: [38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[39] But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

This example of a Christ follower who was not following the Apostles.....huh?!?. He clearly has the power of Christ for he is casting out devils in Jesus' name. I'm not sure what to think about this passage. Evidence for a different denomination? 

Thoughts?

Praise be to God for his Word!

To get this I had to use the far inferior "new" LDS scripture feature.

The men that John referred to must have been authorized to use Jesus name to cast out devils because if they didn't this likely would have happened.

Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, aexorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the bname of the Lord Jesus, saying, We cadjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the aevil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

But then again there is this,  which seems to contradict the verses you quote.

Matt 7:21 Not every one that asaith unto me, bLord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that cdoeth the dwill of my Father which is in eheaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not aprophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 aAnd then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: bdepart from me, ye that work ciniquity.

Of course, it is possible that they were lying when they make the claim to have cast out devils in his name.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Vance said:

....................................

The men that John referred to must have been authorized to use Jesus name to cast out devils because if they didn't this likely would have happened.

......................................

Matt 7:21 Not every one that asaith unto me, bLord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that cdoeth the dwill of my Father which is in eheaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not aprophesied in thy name? and in thy bname have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 aAnd then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: bdepart from me, ye that work ciniquity.

Of course, it is possible that they were lying when they make the claim to have cast out devils in his name.

Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: CJCLDS, 2013), 272, citing Conference Report, Oct 1919, pages 89-90, 

Quote

   I am in full accord with the idea that has been expressed that the Lord is using many agencies; his work is not confined to the Latter-day Saints, for he has called many to his service outside of the Church and has endowed them with power, has inspired them to do his work. 

There were also men like Robert Mason, who was known as "Prophet Mason," and who prophesied the future establishment of the LDS Church with great clarity to young Wilford Woodruff, and declared that Wilford would be a part of it.  See Woodruff, Leaves from My Journal.

Elder Orson F. Whitney, “[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.”

D&C 49:8 says that God has reserved unto himself "holy men that ye know not of."

3 Ne 15:21, 24, “ye [Nephites] are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd [John 10:16]…. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.” 

3 Ne 15:20 “I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.”

Edited by Robert F. Smith
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: CJCLDS, 2013), 272, citing Conference Report, Oct 1919, pages 89-90, 

There were also men like Robert Mason, who was known as "Prophet Mason," and who prophesied the future establishment of the LDS Church with great clarity to young Wilford Woodruff, and declared that Wilford would be a part of it.  See Woodruff, Leaves from My Journal.

Elder Orson F. Whitney, “[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.”

D&C 49:8 says that God has reserved unto himself "holy men that ye know not of."

3 Ne 15:21, 24, “ye [Nephites] are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd [John 10:16]…. But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.” 

3 Ne 15:20 “I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.”

I find Acts 10 (Cornelius) to be an example of God including "non-members" along the way in His work to establish His kingdom through those with the formal keys to do that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

An additional thought: many good things can be accomplished through "non-members" by the power of God through less than a "fulness of the priesthood."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

God speaks to all nations

2 Nephi 29

6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

12 For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

 

Alma 29:8 “the Lord doth grant unto all nations of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, all that he seeth fit that they should have. therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true.

Nephi remarks that God “speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding” (2 Nephi 31:3), which explains how “he remembereth the heathen, and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile” (2 Nephi 26:33), how “all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world unto man are the typifying of him,” (2 Nephi 11:4), and how there are “divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men which were good” (Moroni 7:24).

Edited by Bernard Gui
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Nephi remarks that God “speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding” (2 Nephi 31:3), which explains how “he remembereth the heathen, and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile” (2 Nephi 26:33), how “all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world unto man are the typifying of him,” (2 Nephi 11:4), and how there are “divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men which were good” (Moroni 7:24).

And then there is the "fulness," which is the ultimate goal.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 7/17/2019 at 12:04 PM, the narrator said:

There never was a singular institutional church during the NT times. This is why you see multiple references to different churches (communities) in different areas, with differences and occasional fighting between them. So rather than thinking of them in terms of different denominations of a single religion or church, it's better to think of them as different communities that were part of the larger movement begun by Jesus.

I agree with this view and of course there are many ways to interpret the gospel.

On the other hand, because there are many ways of interpreting the gospel it is easy to imagine how one man's "variation" on a "valid" interpretation of the gospel can become another's invalid interpretation and apostasy.

So we can be generous and call the differences just "different communities" or not so generous and call these differences "apostasy".

Such is the nature of evidence and its interpretation.

I just wanted to point out that it can be seen both ways

So at what point do we draw the line?   Whatever point it is, I think we are clearly not seen as a "Christian denomination" by those who use such terms

And yet those who define what a denomination is will vociferously defend against the use of the word "apostasy" when it applies to their own denomination.

Go figure.

Others may be worshiping "another Christ" - but ME?  Not possible!!

I see a fair amount of this happening on this board and of course in larger circles as well.

But I think seeing such variations in doctrine as more about communities could very well bring us together, if we try to see it the way the other community does.   

On another thread we had a discussion about who gets to qualify as "Christians" and that did not go well at all, surprise surprise.

So for me the question is, how do we get to the objective of greater unity IF indeed that is our objective?

Edited by mfbukowski
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 7/17/2019 at 10:02 AM, snowflake said:

Thanks for your response Robert, (Robert F. Smith, who said “Not formal denominations, but some very divergent POVs, and that has continued down to the present day.”). Any other examples like this you can point to in scripture? 

Acts 10:34-36

”Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)”

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Others may be worshiping "another Christ" - but ME?  Not possible!!

I see a fair amount of this happening on this board and of course in larger circles as well.

But I think seeing such variations in doctrine as more about communities could very well bring us together, if we try to see it the way the other community does.   

 

I agree.  I see no harm in being honest about what we believe, nor in allowing others to have strong feelings about their religion, and even encouraging them.  I’m not sure why there is a tendency for many of us to say to denominationalists, “I do worship the same Christ as you do.”  The Christ I worship was probably married.  He has a corporeal body, as does His Father, who are separate and distinct from each other and the Holy Ghost.  He speaks to us today through the Scriptures, living modern-day prophets, and through the Holy Ghost.  Those are just a few of the differences between the Christ I worship, and the Christ of my Evangelical or other creed bound Christians.  The thing that makes them right, and me right is that when I truly invite Jesus Christ into my life, my behavior changes for the better.  That is more important than mere belief, imo.

11 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So for me the question is, how do we get to the objective of greater unity IF indeed that is our objective?

The Gospel Jesus taught was “...in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”  There are enough ambiguities in the Scriptures that probably the most reasonable plea is “..Help Thou mine unbelief.”  That is what my Dad said near his time of death because he just didn’t know which version of Jesus Christ was the correct one.  Yet I hold him up as one of the most authentic Christians I have ever known.  He was a very active Lutheran.  In my opinion, there is UNITY in repentance.  There is unity in following the teachings of Jesus Christ, to wit we change our actual behavior(and hopefully thoughts,) from a life of sin and sorrow to becoming disciplined.  I believe the key is not which doctrines or dogmas we believed.  The key is, were  we good.  Many worship God unaware.  I believe we will receive all sacred ordinances by proper authority eventually IF we are good and live according to the light we have received.

Edited by Meerkat
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Acts 10:34-36

”Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)”

I agree.  I see no harm in being honest about what we believe, nor in allowing others to have strong feelings about their religion, and even encouraging them.  I’m not sure why there is a tendency for many of us to say to denominationalists, “I do worship the same Christ as you do.”  The Christ I worship was probably married.  He has a corporeal body, as does His Father, who are separate and distinct from each other and the Holy Ghost.  He speaks to us today through the Scriptures, living modern-day prophets, and through the Holy Ghost.  Those are just a few of the differences between the Christ I worship, and the Christ of my Evangelical or other creed bound Christians.  The thing that makes them right, and me right is that when I truly invite Jesus Christ into my life, my behavior changes for the better.  That is more important than mere belief, imo.

The Gospel Jesus taught was “...in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.”  There are enough ambiguities in the Scriptures that probably the most reasonable plea is “..Help Thou mine unbelief.”  That is what my Dad said near his time of death because he just didn’t know which version of Jesus Christ was the correct one.  Yet I hold him up as one of the most authentic Christians I have ever known.  He was a very active Lutheran.  In my opinion, there is UNITY in repentance.  There is unity in following the teachings of Jesus Christ, to wit we change our actual behavior(and hopefully thoughts,) from a life of sin and sorrow to becoming disciplined.  I believe the key is not which doctrines or dogmas we believed.  The key is, were  we good.  Many worship God unaware.  I believe we will receive all sacred ordinances by proper authority eventually IF we are good and live according to the light we have received.

I think this is why the Lord gave the Great Commandment (which can be applied by everyone by virtue of the light of Christ we are born with) and pointed out that the spirit of contention over His doctrine (which must be administered by proper authority) is of the devil.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I wanted to add some more scriptures to this discussion, but with the elimination of the "classic" scriptures my search capabilities are severely handicapped.

I think it is in the D&C where the Lord says something to the affect that the giving of authority must be done in front of the church so that the church can know who has authority and who does not.

 

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...