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caspianrex

What is the DEAL w/ Denver Snuffer?

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13 hours ago, Judd said:

I do find it amazing that in its 200 year history, this was the event the Lord used to withdraw the priesthood authority from the church.

I suppose that if God sent a messenger to the LDS leaders and the leaders cast him out, that would be a bad thing for the leaders.  The initial premise of God sending a messenger to the leaders is open for debate though.

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2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

He was told to stop publishing the book because it taught false doctrine. If it didnt no one would have cared. You cant claim false doctrine had nothing to do with it when that was the central issue with the book. 

I think the core problem was criticizing the leaders more than teaching false doctrine.

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2 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

CFR, please.  What evidence do you have that Elder Nelson was involved in the disciplinary proceedings against Denver Snuffer?

 

https://denversnuffer.com/2014/06/the-facts/

The only evidence is Snuffer's word.  Take it however you will.

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2 minutes ago, Lemuel said:
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Quote

He was excommunicated because his SP through Elder Nelson demanded that he withdraw the book 

CFR, please.  What evidence do you have that Elder Nelson was involved in the disciplinary proceedings against Denver Snuffer?

https://denversnuffer.com/2014/06/the-facts/

The only evidence is Snuffer's word.  Take it however you will.

Guesswork and innuendo.  Not even Mr. Snuffer substantiates what boo alleges (that Snuffer's "SP through Elder Nelson demanded...").

Thanks,

-Smac

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10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Guesswork and innuendo.  Not even Mr. Snuffer substantiates what boo alleges (that Snuffer's "SP through Elder Nelson demanded...").

Thanks,

-Smac

Smac-- You're a SLC lawyer, right?  I'm curious how Snuffer is regarded in the legal community.

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2 minutes ago, Lemuel said:

Smac-- You're a SLC lawyer, right?  I'm curious how Snuffer is regarded in the legal community.

I've never encountered him, nor have I heard anything about his skills as a lawyer, either good or bad.  He's a named partner in a small (7-attorney) law firm.  He's been sued three times for legal malpractice, though none ended up with a judgment against him.

Thanks,

-Smac

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24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I've never encountered him, nor have I heard anything about his skills as a lawyer, either good or bad.  He's a named partner in a small (7-attorney) law firm.  He's been sued three times for legal malpractice, though none ended up with a judgment against him.

Thanks,

-Smac

Is that a common thing for a law firm, or no?

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3 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Is that a common thing for a law firm, or no?

I assume you are referencing legal malpractice?  I can't really say, but anecdotally I would say that it is fairly rare to be sued for legal malpractice.  

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I assume you are referencing legal malpractice?  I can't really say, but anecdotally I would say that it is fairly rare to be sued for legal malpractice.  

Thanks,

-Smac

I suppose if he wasn't found guilty then that means they most likely didn't have enough evidence and thus Denver would not have actually performed any malpractice. However, it is an interesting note. Not that prison time, mistakes, or lawsuits should immediately disqualify anyone, since plenty of prophets have had that happen.

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6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I suppose if he wasn't found guilty then that means they most likely didn't have enough evidence and thus Denver would not have actually performed any malpractice.

Or it could be that the plaintiffs did have sufficient evidence, but then the parties settled instead of going to trial.

Or it could be that the plaintiffs did have sufficient evidence, but the plaintiffs ran out of money to pay their lawyers, or lost interest in pursuing the suit (litigation is, or can be, very stressful), or had any of a number of reasons for choosing to not pursue the lawsuit to the very end.

We really can't read much of anything into these cases not going to trial.  

Three malpractice lawsuits against him is a bit odd.  However, Snuffer's law firm handles family law and personal injury cases.  My impression is that these types of cases tend to have a higher likelihood of a cranky client (the kind who would file a legal malpractice suit) as compared to other areas of law.  In the absence of meaningful information, I'm not really inclined to think of these cases evidence of, well, anything.

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

However, it is an interesting note. Not that prison time, mistakes, or lawsuits should immediately disqualify anyone, since plenty of prophets have had that happen.

True.  Mr. Snuffer's competency as a lawyer has little to do with his religious claims.

Thanks,

-Smac

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Mill Creek Publishing...not much info on their website.  Here is the description of services:

Mill Creek Publishing offers a variety of services including editing, cover design, formatting, pricing consulting, marketing and distribution.”

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One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

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25 minutes ago, jbarm said:

One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

For all of my reading, listening, tuning into “snufferite” conferences (including the most recent and probably the next one), I have never ever heard Bryce’s name. He might be a friend of Denver’s but I don’t think there is any real level of endorsement there.

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On 7/13/2019 at 11:17 AM, caspianrex said:

Pardon me if this is just common knowledge among Latter-day Saints, as I am not a Saint myself. But who the heck is this Denver Snuffer, Jr. guy?

I stumbled across a PDF of a Book of Mormon that I must have downloaded awhile back, and it purported to be the "Restoration Edition." Somehow that led me to scriptures.info, which is where things started to get weird.

Maybe someone can fill me in on this somewhat bizarre offshoot of the Church.

Brother Snuffer, unfortunately, was excommunicated because he lost his faith in the keys held by the Prophet, his counselors, and the Quorum of the Twelve.  As the years progress, he has become more comfortable placing himself in the prophetic role.  His claims have become more daring.

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14 hours ago, jbarm said:

One of Denver's most ardent supporters, Bryce Bartel, tours around and speaks with Denver, testifying of Denver's prophetic mantle.

Bryce is also a proponent of the idea that stories about Joseph Smith engaging in polyandry were lies made up by Brigham Young to justify Young's activities.

Bryce and his wife Meagan were introductory speakers at an event headlined by Snuffer at the Harry Truman Library in Independence, Mo in April, 2019.

Bryce considers himself to be an Abinidi-like prophet, including his prophesy that the Salt Lake Temple will be destroyed by a tornado (implied to be in August, 2019, 20 years after the last tornado hit Salt Lake, taking out a gay bar and knocking down some trees by the SL Temple which Bryce considered to be a warning to the mainstream Church). (This prophesy is in a letter written by Bryce to the First Presidency after his own excommunication in 2017).

Fairly sure a tornado didn't knock down the Salt Lake Temple in August.

Guess Bryce has yet to learn that prophets shouldn't use specific dates in their prophesies.

And, was it a gay bar??  I don't remember that.  I thought it was a dance club that took some damage.  I'd say his prediction about the the Temple was a bust, no doubt, he'll come up with some excuse for why it wasn't destroyed by a tornado, maybe say the Lord is giving the church 'more time'...that's a popular excuse.  I don't know of this Bryce Bartel either.  Is he a recent convert to the Remnant group?  I haven't been keeping up on what's going on with them for a while now, so maybe I missed reading about him.  There was an article or blog a couple of years back that was making the rounds among the remnant called 'Joseph fought polygamy' which is a reintroduction of the old RLDS claims that it was Brigham Young who was responsible  They go further, I believe and say he and other leaders were practicing it and Joseph tried to stop them and got killed because of it.  I read one claim that said Willard Richards shot Joseph (I think the guy claimed he saw it in a dream or vision???) and somehow the mob was accused.  I guess they were just innocently milling around outside the jail and ended up being blamed?

  I thought Denver Snuffer at one time accepted that Joseph was involved in it, but only for dynastic purposes?  Not sure, but that's what I recall from years ago, but now, I wonder if he's changed his position because this new revised non-history seems popular among some of his supporters.

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53 minutes ago, alter idem said:

And, was it a gay bar??  I don't remember that.  I thought it was a dance club that took some damage.  I'd say his prediction about the the Temple was a bust, no doubt, he'll come up with some excuse for why it wasn't destroyed by a tornado, maybe say the Lord is giving the church 'more time'...that's a popular excuse.  I don't know of this Bryce Bartel either.  Is he a recent convert to the Remnant group?  I haven't been keeping up on what's going on with them for a while now, so maybe I missed reading about him.  There was an article or blog a couple of years back that was making the rounds among the remnant called 'Joseph fought polygamy' which is a reintroduction of the old RLDS claims that it was Brigham Young who was responsible  They go further, I believe and say he and other leaders were practicing it and Joseph tried to stop them and got killed because of it.  I read one claim that said Willard Richards shot Joseph (I think the guy claimed he saw it in a dream or vision???) and somehow the mob was accused.  I guess they were just innocently milling around outside the jail and ended up being blamed?

  I thought Denver Snuffer at one time accepted that Joseph was involved in it, but only for dynastic purposes?  Not sure, but that's what I recall from years ago, but now, I wonder if he's changed his position because this new revised non-history seems popular among some of his supporters.

No, you’re right about his stance. He does believe there were sealings, but no sexual consummation and that the sealings were for a different purpose then just to “collect wives.” No he does not believe Willard Richards shot Joseph, that was claim made in a different book not associated with the remnant.

Also the document making “the rounds” was labebeled Joseph’s Monogamy. It’s a summary of what you’d call old RLDS arguments, however the point of the Doc is to get the reader to investigate further. The best book that makes any kind of good arguement on the subject, and the one that most Remnant believers know of, is the Prices series titled “Joseph Fought Polygamy.” It’s a multi-volume series and, I believe, there are still volumes coming out investigating various eras in Joseph’s polygamy practices. They are RLDS, and this have a narrative to protect (don’t we all?), but they make a surprising good read and I do commend them for their work and commitment to their religion.

However, they are not associated with the Denver or the Remnant and thus not all claims they make are considered true, at all, by those “in the remnant.” (They basically discard sealings and endowments)

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Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

Edited by jbarm
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2 hours ago, jbarm said:

Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

What I meant is that Denver doesn’t seem to endorse him, at least openly. Bryce might endorse Denver, or at least believe his claims.

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On 9/10/2019 at 5:14 PM, jbarm said:

Yes, it was a gay bar called "The Sun" on 200 S and about 700 W in Salt Lake taken out by the tornado.  The space it occupied is currently an empty lot next to the railroad tracks.

Sidenote: The tornado took out a cool tree on the east side of the Temple that was the backdrop for many a wedding picture.

Bryce took the time to fly out to Independence with his wife from SLC and both spoke before Denver at the Harry Truman Library in April.  If that isn't endorsing Denver, I don't know what is.

Bryce also created a series of cartoons (yes, cartoons) published on YouTube promoting his and Snuffer's religious theories (he mentions this is why he was ex'd).  He also blogged extensively on the subject.

However, Bryce has deleted many of his more interesting blogs, documents and cartoons in the last year or so, probably because he is the CEO of a healthcare tech company in Midvale, UT.  Probably bad for business to tie yourself to prophesies of tornadoes taking out the SLC temple.

He is also a strong proponent of the bloodline rights of leadership for descendants of the Smith family (he notes he is a descendant of Hyrum Smith).  He specifically condemns the Church for not having a Smith descendant as Church Patriarch anymore.

Bryce does mention he worships with the Community of Christ folks now, which doesn't seem to make sense since they gave up the Smith leadership bloodline several leaders ago.  He is also a very strong proponent of the Book of Mormon, which isn't a strong point of emphasis in the CoC.

Interesting guy.

Interesting, thanks.  I did not know about this guy.  For some reason I thought it was Club DV8 that was damaged, thanks.  Snuffer seems to be a draw for certain members who lean toward fundamentalism in the church, except that they reject polygamy, which was not the case for earlier fundamentalists.

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