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MustardSeed

Idaho Honor Code

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4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Uh-oh. Sorry. Hope it works out.

If he was not there when whatever it was happened get a solid alibi witness and make sure they talk to that person.

Edit: Did not see latest posts, that is probably not an option.

It’s an academic issue. Somebody cheated. 

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53 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I would suggest, people avoid sending their kids to church schools. 

The mixing of secular and spiritual can have dire consequences and is best avoided.  

I would suggest they record the interview if they are are up for it but a lot of students would be too terrified for such subterfuge.

I’m sorry you are dealing with this. It’s no fun. Good luck. 

I have no problem with church schools but I despise the enforceable Honor Code and it is one reason I did not attend a church school. I get why it is there but I suspect the Honor Code system is aimed more at parents worried about their kids “falling into sin” and less about the improvement to the kids.

It is like the mandatory minimums and the drug scare “tough on crime” junk I was exposed to as a kid that was sold right as private prisons came into vogue (I will avoid a rant on this). Parents ate it up thinking they were protecting their kids until (and this happened fairly often) suddenly their kid was caught in a minor drug crime. Then suddenly the penalties they previously endorsed were cruelly harsh and unfair when their child was on the docket.

Isn’t there some way to have an Honor Code but not make enforcement this “wobbly”? Also, set it up like the Church disciplinary system. Make sure at least one of the people involved is specifically responsible for making sure the student is not insulted or shanghaied as you do with half the High Council in a disciplinary council. Make the punishments for violation major inconveniences but not academic death (unless it is for plagiarism or something specifically academic). The goal is to get a sinning student to repent. The whole system seems designed to make actual sinners not repent.

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23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s an academic issue. Somebody cheated. 

Oh boy. This would be a big deal in any school then. Hard to blame the Honor Code here (as much as I find aspects of its use distasteful).

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Oh boy. This would be a big deal in any school then. Hard to blame the Honor Code here (as much as I find aspects of its use distasteful).

I agree.  

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3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I agree.  

I keep wanting to give advice but it would probably be useless. You and your son have my prayers that they only find and punish the guilty.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I keep wanting to give advice but it would probably be useless. You and your son have my prayers that they only find and punish the guilty.

I hope so as well.  Regardless, I’ve told him he’s capable of working through whatever comes.  He’s a hard worker, keeps his nose down, and has a career waiting for him when it’s done.  He’s done all he can do. My guess is they will fail him for the class for his part in his associate’s behavior. Hopefully he has enough credits to graduate.

 

When I went to Idaho to school, two roommates got drunk and slept with boyfriends.  We were all hauled in.  Everyone blamed me for being the initial tattler (I hadn’t, but by the time we were all hauled in I was honest but reserved). One got kicked out- the belligerent one.  The other was allowed to stay, she went on to go on a mission and since has lived a very pure life. 

FWIW. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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Glad to hear it worked out. 

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ok so good news, he was given a pass as it was an isolated event- they scoured his emails and found no evidence of further infraction.  He also had written letters of apology and intent and so he was offered GRACE.  

Tough life lesson.  To be honest, this is why I value college experience-life prep more than anything else.  

Whew.  I’m glad I had a place to vent in the meantime.  My husband just wanted to burn everything down.  Thanks all.  

FYI:  BYU’s Honor Code Office announced some significant changes today, and hinted that more are to come.

From the Deseret News (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900079012/byu-honor-code-changes.amp😞

“The latest updates include presuming students are not in violation of the Honor Code unless they accept responsibility or the office makes a determination, allowing a student to have a support person to accompany them when they meet with Honor Code staff, a more detailed appeals process and removing the term "counselors" for Honor Code Office employees.”

Edited by Okrahomer
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8 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

FYI:  BYU’s Honor Code Office announced some significant changes today, and hinted that more are to come.

From the Deseret News (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900079012/byu-honor-code-changes.amp😞

“The latest updates include presuming students are not in violation of the Honor Code unless they accept responsibility or the office makes a determination, allowing a student to have a support person to accompany them when they meet with Honor Code staff, a more detailed appeals process and removing the term "counselors" for Honor Code Office employees.”

Interesting.  Thank you for this.  I just read it- I don’t know that it applies officially to Idaho but I’m sure it’s on their radar.  

I love the emphasis on moving it from a punitive process to a —let’s help these guys learn and grow and overcome — type process.  

Maybe this is in my sons favor today. 

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32 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Ok so good news, he was given a pass as it was an isolated event- they scoured his emails and found no evidence of further infraction.  He also had written letters of apology and intent and so he was offered GRACE.  

Tough life lesson.  To be honest, this is why I value college experience-life prep more than anything else.  

Whew.  I’m glad I had a place to vent in the meantime.  My husband just wanted to burn everything down.  Thanks all.  

Your husband still can.

8630574.jpg

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20 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

“The latest updates include presuming students are not in violation of the Honor Code unless they accept responsibility or the office makes a determination, 

It seems crazy to me that this wasn't already the case

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1 minute ago, sjdawg said:

It seems crazy to me that this wasn't already the case

I’m hoping it just needed to be formally written. Even so...

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1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

Interesting.  Thank you for this.  I just read it- I don’t know that it applies officially to Idaho but I’m sure it’s on their radar.  

I love the emphasis on moving it from a punitive process to a —let’s help these guys learn and grow and overcome — type process.  

Maybe this is in my sons favor today. 

I graduated from BYU and love the school.  I made lifelong friends and feel like it provided me with unique educational and spiritual opportunities.  I’m sure every  college/university offers its own type of unique experience, but BYU was definitely the perfect fit for me.  Of course, I hardly even knew there was such a thing as the “honor code office” when I was a student.

On the other hand, I dislike the notion of “enforcement” when it comes to non-academic issues (I realize your son’s issue was academic.). I would much prefer the focus be changed from “enforcement” to “repentance and redemption”.  It seems like the multitudinous Student Ward Bishops in Provo and Orem and Rexburg and Laie are in the best position to work with these wonderful young people and help them recognize mistakes and point them toward the redemptive power of the Savior.  I can’t get comfortable with the idea of a bureaucrat in the Honor Code Office dealing with matters of such eternal significance.  I say:  Leave it to the Bishops!

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1 hour ago, Okrahomer said:

I graduated from BYU and love the school.  I made lifelong friends and feel like it provided me with unique educational and spiritual opportunities.  I’m sure every  college/university offers its own type of unique experience, but BYU was definitely the perfect fit for me.  Of course, I hardly even knew there was such a thing as the “honor code office” when I was a student.

On the other hand, I dislike the notion of “enforcement” when it comes to non-academic issues (I realize your son’s issue was academic.). I would much prefer the focus be changed from “enforcement” to “repentance and redemption”.  It seems like the multitudinous Student Ward Bishops in Provo and Orem and Rexburg and Laie are in the best position to work with these wonderful young people and help them recognize mistakes and point them toward the redemptive power of the Savior.  I can’t get comfortable with the idea of a bureaucrat in the Honor Code Office dealing with matters of such eternal significance.  I say:  Leave it to the Bishops!

And pray your child's Bishop has the repentance and redemption viewpoint. Some are not that way.

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

And pray your child's Bishop has the repentance and redemption viewpoint. Some are not that way.

I doubt this.

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49 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I doubt this.

It's kind of the mercy vs justice thing...some Bishops  tend to lean one way or the other.

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1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

It's kind of the mercy vs justice thing...some Bishops  tend to lean one way or the other.

Most temper what they say to fit the person they are working with.

If the penitent person is indifferent to the seriousness of their situation you have to help them see that and that can come across as harsh. If you start with mercy in this case repentance is rarely the result and repeat offenses are common. This is also the case with someone worried more about social or personal consequences then the sin itself.

If the person’s heart is already broken because they know what they have done is wrong and they feel their offense to God and sometimes even feel worthless they are past the above step and then you teach mercy and the atonement.

Some are more spiritually mature and pass through both stages on their own. Then you are just helping them through a process they already understand and become a supporter to help them process, repent, and move forward.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Most temper what they say to fit the person they are working with.

If the penitent person is indifferent to the seriousness of their situation you have to help them see that and that can come across as harsh. If you start with mercy in this case repentance is rarely the result and repeat offenses are common. This is also the case with someone worried more about social or personal consequences then the sin itself.

If the person’s heart is already broken because they know what they have done is wrong and they feel their offense to God and sometimes even feel worthless they are past the above step and then you teach mercy and the atonement.

Some are more spiritually mature and pass through both stages on their own. Then you are just helping them through a process they already understand and become a supporter to help them process, repent, and move forward.

And you believe Bishops get this right most of the time? I think reading ‘demeanor’ is really tricky. They aren’t psychologists. 

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11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

And you believe Bishops get this right most of the time? I think reading ‘demeanor’ is really tricky. They aren’t psychologists. 

Yes, it does not take a psychologist to recognize guilt or denial. This is also where discernment often does come in.

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32 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, it does not take a psychologist to recognize guilt or denial. This is also where discernment often does come in.

But I think reserve and shyness leading to discomfort can often be misread by others. 

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26 minutes ago, Calm said:

But I think reserve and shyness leading to discomfort can often be misread by others. 

Yeah, but that is common enough in kids that the Bishop is unlikely to read that as a huge sin alert.

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but that is common enough in kids that the Bishop is unlikely to read that as a huge sin alert.

I’m sorry...I know Bishops don’t get this right all the time. Please tell me what a huge ‘sin alert’ is. I laugh when I’m stressed. I have one who cries. I have one who gets angry and lashes out when she is highly stressed. I have one who is “unflappably” and shuts down. Stress reactions are very different person to person. Do you really think a Bishop can discern trauma reactions in teenage girls. They don’t do it very well. Trust me. 

I will admit, many Bishops deal with these things in a great way. Can you admit some don’t?

What about those who are also sick and have a medical condition that can effect reactions. Do you think Bishops are trained to discern that?

 

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7 hours ago, Okrahomer said:

FYI:  BYU’s Honor Code Office announced some significant changes today, and hinted that more are to come.

From the Deseret News (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseretnews.com/article/900079012/byu-honor-code-changes.amp😞

“The latest updates include presuming students are not in violation of the Honor Code unless they accept responsibility or the office makes a determination, allowing a student to have a support person to accompany them when they meet with Honor Code staff, a more detailed appeals process and removing the term "counselors" for Honor Code Office employees.”

This is good news! Assuming innocence until proven guilty and allowing the accused to have representation.  That is a huge step forward for BYU especially considering we are only in the second decade of the twenty first century.

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1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

I’m sorry...I know Bishops don’t get this right all the time. Please tell me what a huge ‘sin alert’ is. I laugh when I’m stressed. I have one who cries. I have one who gets angry and lashes out when she is highly stressed. I have one who is “unflappably” and shuts down. Stress reactions are very different person to person. Do you really think a Bishop can discern trauma reactions in teenage girls. They don’t do it very well. Trust me. 

I will admit, many Bishops deal with these things in a great way. Can you admit some don’t?

What about those who are also sick and have a medical condition that can effect reactions. Do you think Bishops are trained to discern that?

 

I had no idea basic human interaction is now beyond most bishops and most kids. Their job is not to discern trauma. It is not even to discern sins except as they need to help people repent of them. It is to help people progress spiritually. 

When did everyone decide bishops are therapists and then got angry that they are not? When did we decide only therapists can interact with kids? I thought I was doom and gloom but this worldview is terrifying.

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