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MustardSeed

Idaho Honor Code

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I need quick advice, this is probably the wrong page... 

when students are pulled into the Honor Code office, are they allowed a representative ? Lawyer, anything? 

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7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I need quick advice, this is probably the wrong page... 

when students are pulled into the Honor Code office, are they allowed a representative ? Lawyer, anything? 

This recently changed at BYU. I would assume BYU Idaho would follow suit, but can't state that as I type this.  Supposedly now an accused is not assumed to be guilty or is not treated as guilty. I do not know about a right to have counsel present. We aren't talking criminal law here. If it is not in the policy or code, I would assume a student does not have that "right" to have counsel present, but I would say that if one wants to lawyer up that the school would look on that with some suspicion. Personally, if I did something I agreed not to do, I guess I would face the consequences or perhaps leave the school. I am not one to lie about it or try to avoid my consequence. However, if I did not do it, I would definitely stand my ground. I guess the problem then becomes would I report on others? While I don't think I would personally just volunteer that type of information, except in cases of extreme harm to others, if I was present at the time of the violation, and get dragged in as a witness, I would spill the beans.  I am not offering advice to you really. I am just giving how I think I would respond to what I believe the current situation is.

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I understand that provos new guidelines require they notify you before bringing you in.  

Apparently Idaho has not adopted that policy , at least not as of today . 😢

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5 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I understand that provos new guidelines require they notify you before bringing you in.  

Apparently Idaho has not adopted that policy , at least not as of today . 😢

Bringing you in? You make it sound like an arrest. You can choose not to go.

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I think having a lawyer to articulate your position and defend you would not be unreasonable when your possibly facing expulsion and severe consequences.  I can't say whether or not it is currently allowed but I think it should be if the student wants it.

Anecdotally it seems the Honor code offices have a history of misleading  or even bullying students.  A lawyer might level the playing field and keep the process honest.

 

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8 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I think having a lawyer to articulate your position and defend you would not be unreasonable when your possibly facing expulsion and severe consequences.  I can't say whether or not it is currently allowed but I think it should be if the student wants it.

Anecdotally it seems the Honor code offices have a history of misleading  or even bullying students.  A lawyer might level the playing field and keep the process honest.

 

I think in this context a lawyer is more likely to hurt then help. It is not a legal proceeding and bringing in a lawyer would likely prejudice them against you from the start.

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Just now, The Nehor said:

I think in this context a lawyer is more likely to hurt then help. It is not a legal proceeding and bringing in a lawyer would likely prejudice them against you from the start.

from the anecdotes that I have heard it almost seems as though they are already prejudiced from the start.  I get what you are saying but student vs. institution is not exactly a level playing field.  

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

from the anecdotes that I have heard it almost seems as though they are already prejudiced from the start.  I get what you are saying but student vs. institution is not exactly a level playing field.  

I’ve had friends who were all called in multiple times for the silliest of things, even though they never did them. While a lawyer might be overkill having a representative to present the facts would be much more effective in getting The HCO off your back. They will pester you and your bishop countless times until they get their confession sometimes.

My own father was kicked out of Ricks for being in the same room where drinking (that he didn’t really know about) was happening. The honor code is often abused by students, but it is also consistently inappropriately used against us as well.

Edit: we’re also adults so we don’t really need a curfew (but that’s just my opinion haha).

Edited by SettingDogStar
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14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think in this context a lawyer is more likely to hurt then help. It is not a legal proceeding and bringing in a lawyer would likely prejudice them against you from the start.

If someone is going to play  with another persons scholastic future, the person who thinks it is there responsibility to sit in judgment should not be in the position if they are so easily biased.

Though I understand what you are saying.

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11 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I’ve had friends who were all called in multiple times for the silliest of things, even though they never did them. While a lawyer might be overkill having a representative to present the facts would be much more effective in getting The HCO off your back. They will pester you and your bishop countless times until they get their confession sometimes.

My own father was kicked out of Ricks for being in the same room where drinking (that he didn’t really know about) was happening. The honor code is often abused by students, but it is also consistently inappropriately used against us as well.

Edit: we’re also adults so we don’t really need a curfew (but that’s just my opinion haha).

I think representation would help in getting the honor code office to apply the code consistently and in accordance with their own policies.

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18 minutes ago, provoman said:

If someone is going to play  with another persons scholastic future, the person who thinks it is there responsibility to sit in judgment should not be in the position if they are so easily biased.

Though I understand what you are saying.

I offer you the Lantern of Diogenes and wish you luck in finding that person’s replacement. ;) 

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1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

I think having a lawyer to articulate your position and defend you would not be unreasonable when your possibly facing expulsion and severe consequences.  I can't say whether or not it is currently allowed but I think it should be if the student wants it.

Anecdotally it seems the Honor code offices have a history of misleading  or even bullying students.  A lawyer might level the playing field and keep the process honest.

 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I think in this context a lawyer is more likely to hurt then help. It is not a legal proceeding and bringing in a lawyer would likely prejudice them against you from the start.

My question would be, What happens if you are innocent and they assume you are guilty?  Students are young and ignorant, likely to be scapegoated for something they didn't do.  What happens then?  How do you protect yourself when you not only don't know your rights, but people are lying about you and being believed.  Young men have gone to prison for false accusations at universities, or simply expelled based on a lie.

Would it be acceptable to lay a recorder on the table at such a meeting and simply say:  "My lawyer recommended that I record our meeting for my own safety."

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1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

My question would be, What happens if you are innocent and they assume you are guilty?  Students are young and ignorant, likely to be scapegoated for something they didn't do.  What happens then?  How do you protect yourself when you not only don't know your rights, but people are lying about you and being believed.  Young men have gone to prison for false accusations at universities, or simply expelled based on a lie.

Would it be acceptable to lay a recorder on the table at such a meeting and simply say:  "My lawyer recommended that I record our meeting for my own safety."

The funny thing is if you brought a lawyer and that made them suspicious it wouldn't matter. If your lawyer could prove you didn't break any part of the code then it really doesn't matter how much they think you're guilty. Any action taken against you would then violate their standards.

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31 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

 

Would it be acceptable to lay a recorder on the table at such a meeting and simply say:  "My lawyer recommended that I record our meeting for my own safety."

I think it should be acceptable

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1 hour ago, sjdawg said:

I think having a lawyer to articulate your position and defend you would not be unreasonable when your possibly facing expulsion and severe consequences.  I can't say whether or not it is currently allowed but I think it should be if the student wants it.

Anecdotally it seems the Honor code offices have a history of misleading  or even bullying students.  A lawyer might level the playing field and keep the process honest.

 

I agree and when you consider how much is really on the line in some cases, it would seem wise to take someone with you who can at least be a witness to what is said and done. For example, if an honor code office elicits some kind of confession that could lead to a student's expulsion, thus costing them thousands of $$$ and/or impact the work they've done towards their degree, there really is a lot riding on honor code interactions for some students.

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2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

The funny thing is if you brought a lawyer and that made them suspicious it wouldn't matter. If your lawyer could prove you didn't break any part of the code then it really doesn't matter how much they think you're guilty. Any action taken against you would then violate their standards.

And if it violates their standards so what? You can appeal but that is also not a legal proceeding. How is the lawyer going to prove a negative? It is not a court of law either. No matter how well you show your probable innocence they can make whatever decision they want.

I am making them sound like monsters. I am guessing they are mostly conscientious but there is no good legal defense in this situation. Your goal is persuasion.

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

My question would be, What happens if you are innocent and they assume you are guilty?  Students are young and ignorant, likely to be scapegoated for something they didn't do.  What happens then?  How do you protect yourself when you not only don't know your rights, but people are lying about you and being believed.  Young men have gone to prison for false accusations at universities, or simply expelled based on a lie.

Would it be acceptable to lay a recorder on the table at such a meeting and simply say:  "My lawyer recommended that I record our meeting for my own safety."

What rights? Read the Honor Code piece on the website. Everything is at their discretion. There are not any hard and fast rules. I understand why they did it this way but it is very easy to abuse.

Idaho is a one party consent state. Just record it without telling them.

If you want to fight them and are being shanghaied your best bet is probably to create a PR nightmare but that is unlikely to work unless you have evidence of nefarious doings.

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May I suggest that you coach whomever it is to not answer any questions, but write them down and agree to get back to them.   And if the student can afford and find representation, then by all means take them.   They are not ENTITLED to counsel, but that doesn't mean that they won't be allowed in if STUDENT waives their confidentiality to allow it.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not a court of law either. No matter how well you show your probable innocence they can make whatever decision they want.

I was unaware that they can apparently do that. Glad I’m leaving such a place.

Edited by SettingDogStar

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I would suggest, people avoid sending their kids to church schools. 

The mixing of secular and spiritual can have dire consequences and is best avoided.  

I would suggest they record the interview if they are are up for it but a lot of students would be too terrified for such subterfuge.

I’m sorry you are dealing with this. It’s no fun. Good luck. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I would suggest, people avoid sending their kids to church schools. 

The mixing of secular and spiritual can have dire consequences and is best avoided.  

I would suggest they record the interview if they are are up for it but a lot of students would be too terrified for such subterfuge.

I’m sorry you are dealing with this. It’s no fun. Good luck. 

 

 

No sleep was had last night.  Graduation in one week and after 4 years may be a very hard day indeed.  Child was interrogated by a group of professors for someone else’s crime and his absent mindedness may have dire consequences. :(

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

No sleep was had last night.  Graduation in one week and after 4 years may be a very hard day indeed.  Child was interrogated by a group of professors for someone else’s crime and his absent mindedness may have dire consequences. :(

I'm so sorry you are going through this!  One of my sons just graduated from college in June and I cannot even imagine going through this one week before his graduation (after 4 years of dedicated, hard work...just as your child has done, I'm sure).  Please keep us updated.  I hope things can get cleared up before the graduation.

Edited by ALarson
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Posted (edited)

Me too.  He did a stupid thing, but it’s not worthy of the treatment this child confided in me nor the over the top threats and wild accusations by the room of pitchfork professors. 

 Disclaimer: I was not there. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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Ps.  I support the Honor Code and the school. I don’t support tactics or back door threats

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

No sleep was had last night.  Graduation in one week and after 4 years may be a very hard day indeed.  Child was interrogated by a group of professors for someone else’s crime and his absent mindedness may have dire consequences. :(

Uh-oh. Sorry. Hope it works out.

If he was not there when whatever it was happened get a solid alibi witness and make sure they talk to that person.

Edit: Did not see latest posts, that is probably not an option.

Edited by The Nehor

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