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Scott Lloyd

Apostates and Hitler

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On a thread that was closed before I had opportunity to respond, it was implied that I think Hitler is more redeemable than apostates. I want to go on record as saying I have never made such a claim, nor do I believe it. It was a scurrilous insinuation. 

We know you, and we know better. You would never say or imply something that heartless. 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
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3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The problem is not the church baptizing people, as I know you know. The problem is the yahoos out there who baptize anybody they feel like it including movie stars etc.

The church has a long-standing directive to baptize only those to whom one is related, or those who are on the temple name lists.

Long ago in this Church there were some special projects to baptize and endow certain prominent dead people, such as the Founding Fathers.  I don't know the full extent of that sort of thing.  Also, before the current rules came in, I did the work for certain people to whom I am not directly related, and I have no qualm about having done it.  One was a very close friend who died by his own hand, had been adopted, did not know his biological parents, and had no LDS relatives.  I took care of him a year after his death.  I just could not leave him adrift.

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4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So what happened to the mods enforcing Godwin's law?

Not that it is going to make a difference, because everyone's in love with this false formulation of Godwin's Law being an actual LAW, but here goes: Godwin's Law is not that threads bringing up Hitler or Nazis must be closed.  It just states that long threads are more likely to contain comparisons to Hitler or Nazis.  It's an ADAGE, not a rule, or law.

"Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"; that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends."

All this means is that a thread that is 10 posts long it will unlikely feature a comparison between Hitler or Nazis.  But a thread 600 posts long probably will.

So, unless the Mods are sticklers to a "law" that isn't really a "law", we can talk about Hitler or Nazis as long as we aren't comparing each other to either.  

If the world were a normal place, at least.

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Calm said:

I personally hope as much as I find him repugnant that he is redeemed.  I hope everyone down to the most sadistic villain ever is.  I hope Cain and Judas are.  I don't view anyone as unredeemable or compare them to others as who is more eligible for salvation/exaltation than others.  What a meaningless waste of time.

And I hope Hitler was brain damaged so that he doesn't have to suffer massively in order to learn to be a better person.  I really hope that all wicked people are in that situation, but I doubt that is the case.  I don't see much purpose in revenge punishment.  I think a much better scenario is for the wicked to repent and start treating others in helpful, not harmful ways.  Revenge punishment doesn't improve the world/universe in my view.

Remove those who would continue to harm others if they could; the rest of the wicked, turn them into contributing members of society so society can improve and those who were victims' lives can be better.

Jesus and Stephen forgave those who were murdering them. I can imagine in the eternities other victims of murder forgiving their tormentors. 

As in this profoundly moving WW1 poem by Wilfred Owen.... 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Not that it is going to make a difference, because everyone's in love with this false formulation of Godwin's Law being an actual LAW, but here goes: Godwin's Law is not that threads bringing up Hitler or Nazis must be closed.  It just states that long threads are more likely to contain comparisons to Hitler or Nazis.  It's an ADAGE, not a rule, or law.

"Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of Hitler analogies) is an Internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"; that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends."

All this means is that a thread that is 10 posts long it will unlikely feature a comparison between Hitler or Nazis.  But a thread 600 posts long probably will.

So, unless the Mods are sticklers to a "law" that isn't really a "law", we can talk about Hitler or Nazis as long as we aren't comparing each other to either.  

If the world were a normal place, at least.

oh yeah trust me I get it.  And in case you didn't notice, the point about Hitler is in the title of the thread, comparing perfectly reasonable people who disagree with the church with Hitler.

It's just that I have seen other threads snapped closed whenever the H word appears and they cited Godwin's law

Honest I am not making this stuff up.   I have gotten kicked off threads for less.

Edited by mfbukowski

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7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Long ago in this Church there were some special projects to baptize and endow certain prominent dead people, such as the Founding Fathers.  I don't know the full extent of that sort of thing.  Also, before the current rules came in, I did the work for certain people to whom I am not directly related, and I have no qualm about having done it.  One was a very close friend who died by his own hand, had been adopted, did not know his biological parents, and had no LDS relatives.  I took care of him a year after his death.  I just could not leave him adrift.

Yes it is done all the time.  And I have done the work for some who I knew had living relatives but I had no idea how to find them. 

 I know an individual who knew his ancestors came from a certain town in Germany, and he went to the local cemetery, photographed all the graves, input all the names, and did all the work for the entire town, or at least as many as were in the cemetery- I believe it was over 500 people, some of whom were relatives, but the vast majority were not.

But of course that's not church policy.   That was just my point.  Ultimately as more and more names are indexed, that could lead to duplicates and confusion and wasting people's time by having them do ordinances for folks who's work is already done, but on the other hand, there are times when I have felt strongly it was the right thing to do, because that person, dang it, was MY friend or relative and I wanted to make sure it got done!

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have only encountered two people in my life who I thought MIGHT be that far gone. They were both very unpleasant and there was an almost palpable sense of darkness when dealing with them. Both were once devoted strong members and now they hated the gospel. They did not say it was false or that they figured out it was false; they just despised it. I suspect one of them would have gladly killed me if he thought he could get away with it. I hope they were not that far gone but I did wonder.

 

Being wicked isn't enough ---- you have to have perfect knowledge of Christ and fully reject Him.     So even if you knew a lot about Him, made covenants, had received spiritual confirmation, and then reject and work against the restored Church of Jesus  Christ, and are really really wicked, it still isn't enough to get you beyond reach of the Atonement.

It certainly would be enough to get one relegated to the lowest level of heaven.

Edited by rpn

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5 minutes ago, rpn said:

Being wicked isn't enough ---- you have to have perfect knowledge of Christ and fully reject Him.     So even if you knew a lot about Him, made covenants, had received spiritual confirmation, and then reject and work against the restored Church of Jesus  Christ, and are really really wicked, it still isn't enough to get you beyond reach of the Atonement.

It certainly would be enough to get one relegated to the lowest level of heaven.

I know, there is a lot to it and most members cannot fall that far at their current spiritual state. I am not sure where that knowledge line is but I know I am not there and very few are. I suspect that the only time you can make this fall is a window (probably narrow) between receiving this surety in whatever form it comes but before your calling and election is made sure.

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On 7/7/2019 at 11:20 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The other day, on another platform, someone asked why the LDS Church had baptized Hitler by proxy.  Despite the fact that I don't actually know whether he has been given all the temple ordinances, I replied that the LDS Church baptizes everyone who has died and whose name and birthdate they can obtain so that everyone can make the crucial choice whether to accept the ordinances of the Gospel, or no.  It is not our place to pass final judgment.

Indeed, one point of our being here is to be taught repentance. If one cannot repent, then Christ's work is null. If the Church cannot forgive, then its work will become null as well. 

Some years ago it struck me whether Satan can repent. I suppose if he were willing to swallow his pride and agree to come to a world under God's terms, it might be possible - as I suppose God's love may even extend to him. However, how then would God's work be done? It seems every class has a bully - and every world will have rebellious spirits. I believe God has learned this through sad experience. Perhaps, I am digressing...

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14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

oh yeah trust me I get it.  And in case you didn't notice, the point about Hitler is in the title of the thread, comparing perfectly reasonable people who disagree with the church with Hitler.

It's just that I have seen other threads snapped closed whenever the H word appears and they cited Godwin's law

Honest I am not making this stuff up.   I have gotten kicked off threads for less.

I was just making the observation, more for other than for you. I'm pretty sure you get it.

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2 hours ago, rpn said:

Being wicked isn't enough ---- you have to have perfect knowledge of Christ and fully reject Him.     So even if you knew a lot about Him, made covenants, had received spiritual confirmation, and then reject and work against the restored Church of Jesus  Christ, and are really really wicked, it still isn't enough to get you beyond reach of the Atonement.

I gather that only the SoP are beyond the reach of the Atonement.

2 hours ago, rpn said:

It certainly would be enough to get one relegated to the lowest level of heaven.

And my understanding of the Plan of Salvation is that the Telestial Kingdom is for those who have the offer of the Atonement, but refuse it and so must suffer for their own sins.  Meaning that those who accept the Atonement partake of the Terrestrial or the Celestial, depending upon whether or not they are "valiant in the testimony of Jesus".

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55 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Indeed, one point of our being here is to be taught repentance. If one cannot repent, then Christ's work is null. If the Church cannot forgive, then its work will become null as well. 

Some years ago it struck me whether Satan can repent. I suppose if he were willing to swallow his pride and agree to come to a world under God's terms, it might be possible - as I suppose God's love may even extend to him. However, how then would God's work be done? It seems every class has a bully - and every world will have rebellious spirits. I believe God has learned this through sad experience. Perhaps, I am digressing...

Satan rebelled against God in perfect sight -- he was not unaware of who God was.  And Satan is not a Son of Perdition -- he IS Perdition.  The very definition of Perdition.  Which means he is beyond repentance.

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