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Scott Lloyd

Apostates and Hitler

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On a thread that was closed before I had opportunity to respond, it was implied that I think Hitler is more redeemable than apostates. I want to go on record as saying I have never made such a claim, nor do I believe it. It was a scurrilous insinuation. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The other day, on another platform, someone asked why the LDS Church had baptized Hitler by proxy.  Despite the fact that I don't actually know whether he has been given all the temple ordinances, I replied that the LDS Church baptizes everyone who has died and whose name and birthdate they can obtain so that everyone can make the crucial choice whether to accept the ordinances of the Gospel, or no.  It is not our place to pass final judgment.

I personally hope as much as I find him repugnant that he is redeemed.  I hope everyone down to the most sadistic villain ever is.  I hope Cain and Judas are.  I don't view anyone as unredeemable or compare them to others as who is more eligible for salvation/exaltation than others.  What a meaningless waste of time.

And I hope Hitler was brain damaged so that he doesn't have to suffer massively in order to learn to be a better person.  I really hope that all wicked people are in that situation, but I doubt that is the case.  I don't see much purpose in revenge punishment.  I think a much better scenario is for the wicked to repent and start treating others in helpful, not harmful ways.  Revenge punishment doesn't improve the world/universe in my view.

Remove those who would continue to harm others if they could; the rest of the wicked, turn them into contributing members of society so society can improve and those who were victims' lives can be better.

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)

Apostates have even been held up as examples of faith by church leadership in the past, for example from '86:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1986/02/news-of-the-church/an-apostate-but-a-friend-to-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

Don't see that happening much with Hitler.

Edited by Calm

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Hitler is more redeemable then a child of Perdition and such children are all apostates but most apostates are not Perdition.

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Posted (edited)

On one hand, there are degrees of sin. (I certainly hope that murder =/= Failing to minister/not engaging in effective ministering* ... :huh::unknw: ) On the other hand, all sin, no matter what it is or how "minor" it may be considered, separates us from God. I'm not sure what degree of salvation Hitler, eventually, might merit (for that matter, I can say the exact same thing about myself. Perhaps a modest little cottage on the immediate outskirts of the Celestial City? :D). And of course, with respect to apostates (aren't we all, no matter how faithful, to one degree or another, apostates (Mosiah 2:21, Doctrine & Covenants 82:3))?  The foregoing scriptures notwithstanding, I've always been comforted by something the stake president who interviewed me before I was ordained an elder pointed out: In order to not merit forgiveness for breaking the Oath and Covenant of the Priesthood, one would have to "altogether turn[ ] therefrom," that is, completely and utterly (Doctrine and Covenants 84:41).   As many people as I know who've fallen away, I don't know anybody who's done that.

There are also the questions of: (1) what constitutes an "opportunity to receive" the Gospel of Jesus Christ; and (2) what constitutes "rejection" of that opportunity.  Those questions (and similar questions) are far above my pay grade. I'll leave the answers in particular cases to The One Who Suffered Infinitely to sort it all out. But that's exactly the point, isn't it? It's not just the Hitlers of the world who need Jesus Christ (to the degree that he can be/chooses to be redeemed). No one can make it halfway through this life, or into the next, without the Savior: "God be thanked for the Matchless Gift of His Divine Son.” —The Living Christ: The Testimony of the Apostles

*In the old days, I would have used "100% home teaching" as my example. The times, they are a changin'! ;))

 

Edited by Kenngo1969
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Nobody wants to be associated in any way with Hitler.  I can understand your upset. 

 

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9 hours ago, Calm said:

As a believer who is therefore also accused of this, I find this idea ridiculous.  I see it as highly problematic in someone's understanding of either church teachings or church culture to see things that way.  If they got this so spectacularly wrong, so much else could be wrong in their interpretations.  I have never heard of any believer state something like this, that I can recall.

I know of certain few members I see as 'lower' on the humanity pole than most apostates I know.

Someone is redeemable because they are willing to change.  As there has been plenty of evidence in the past, apostates are perfectly capable of repenting and changing to accept the gospel once again.  There is nothing inherent in apostasy that prevents redemption imo.

Hitler (assuming what he did was a choice and not some significant brain damage) seemed to have been of a character too twisted and proud to change easily.  Add to that his profound, murderous hatred of others...I think if he is ever redeemed, it will take a huge amount of time and opportunities for him to be willing to even begin to soften his heart towards others and God.

Perhaps the poster who said this doesn't understand the difference between apostates in general and "sons of Perdition" which are as far as I can tell a very, very rare breed of apostate, the only one known is Cain iirc.  This type of apostate would crucify Christ even while fully knowing he was God and thus qualifies as the "lowest of the low". There is some debate about Judas (did he truly understand who Christ was?).

Thanks for sharing the distinction of an "apostate" and a "son of Perdition", Calm.

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25 minutes ago, rpn said:

I don't think there are very many "apostates" with the knowledge and experiences required to be a son of perdition.  

I have only encountered two people in my life who I thought MIGHT be that far gone. They were both very unpleasant and there was an almost palpable sense of darkness when dealing with them. Both were once devoted strong members and now they hated the gospel. They did not say it was false or that they figured out it was false; they just despised it. I suspect one of them would have gladly killed me if he thought he could get away with it. I hope they were not that far gone but I did wonder.

 

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Hitler is more redeemable then a child of Perdition and such children are all apostates but most apostates are not Perdition.

Kind of like all dogs are mammals but not all mammals are dogs?

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4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Kind of like all dogs are mammals but not all mammals are dogs?

Pretty much.

And they are rare. I knew a girl who thought she was perdition and was worried about it. I told her if she is capable of being concerned about it she is not one.

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2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Nobody wants to be associated in any way with Hitler.  I can understand your upset. 

 

I don’t even recall having “labeled [the poster referenced here] as an apostate.” I would need to be shown the wording in context before conceding that I did. 

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10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The other day, on another platform, someone asked why the LDS Church had baptized Hitler by proxy.  Despite the fact that I don't actually know whether he has been given all the temple ordinances, I replied that the LDS Church baptizes everyone who has died and whose name and birthdate they can obtain so that everyone can make the crucial choice whether to accept the ordinances of the Gospel, or no.  It is not our place to pass final judgment.

The problem is not the church baptizing people, as I know you know. The problem is the yahoos out there who baptize anybody they feel like it including movie stars etc.

The church has a long-standing directive to baptize only those to whom one is related, or those who are on the temple name lists.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rpn said:

I don't think there are very many "apostates" with the knowledge and experiences required to be a son of perdition.  

Yes and few understand that.

Frankly I don't get all this concern about sons of perdition.

My gut feeling is that if there are a dozen of them total in the history of the universe that would be a lot.

Like Lucifer, how many have known God face to face and then denied that he was God?

Edited by mfbukowski

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Just now, mfbukowski said:

Yes and few understand that.

Frankly I don't get all this concern about sons of perdition.

My gut feeling is that if there are a dozen of them total in the history of the universe that would be a lot.

I suspect there are under a thousand in the history of this earth and less then a hundred alive now so I think they are more common then you do but not by much.

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So what happened to the mods enforcing Godwin's law?

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10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The other day, on another platform, someone asked why the LDS Church had baptized Hitler by proxy.  

Well, Jews didn’t want us baptizing them by proxy so we thought we’d try the other side.

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42 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So what happened to the mods enforcing Godwin's law?

Well, they did close the thread shortly after that post appeared. 

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So what happened to the mods enforcing Godwin's law?

People going to Outer Darkness are possibly the only group you can call Hitler and it is more insulting to Hitler then the group.

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, they did close the thread shortly after that post appeared. 

Stuff happens.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect there are under a thousand in the history of this earth and less then a hundred alive now so I think they are more common then you do but not by much.

Do you see the requirement of having been face to face with God (as solid in knowledge and experience that he exists as they are about the sun's existence) and then in essence turn their back on him?  Or do you see a different set of qualifications?

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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So what happened to the mods enforcing Godwin's law?

Someone report it?

Maybe they went to work.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you see the requirement of having been face to face with God (as solid in knowledge and experience that he exists as they are about the sun's existence) and then in essence turn their back on him?  Or do you see a different set of qualifications?

I am not sure if it requires a physical manifestation but it does require that level of surety however it is received. I think seeing is one of the lesser ways of having it communicated. The Holy Ghost can communicate a more powerful witness and many receive it as they progress in the gospel. I believe this is the witness apostles get along with a physical appearance at some point. Then again I know Seventies and other non-prominent members who have had that physical appearance so both can be given to anyone.

Edited by The Nehor
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