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MustardSeed

What motivates you to live the WOW?

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

Well, unlike a lot of you guys, I now know exactly what I would do about the WOW if I left the church.  So here is how it all played out for me.  I no longer believe it was some kind of revelation, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea behind it all.  I never drink wine.  Tried one glass.  That stuff is nasty.  My friend that gave it to me assured me it was an acquired taste.  Who needs to acquire a taste for something so high in calories and not all that good for you.  I would rather choose dessert.  Beer, I can't get past the smell of it.  Never even tried it.  Tobacco.  please.  You would have to be an idiot to want to smoke knowing what we know about tobacco IMO.  Coffee.  Don't drink it much.  I spend a lot of time in Europe, and sometimes in the late afternoon, sitting at a cafe having a cappuccino is just pleasant.  More of a relaxing ritual than a habit.  Hard liquor. I have to say an occasional mojito can be quite nice.  Most hard liquor is just nasty tasting.  Drugs, not really into drugs.  I have tried a few.  Not really my thing.  Tried smoking marijuana, but my lungs are just not going to take the smoke.  I cough like crazy to the point that it seems pointless.  I have done edibles.  Much better for me.  By no means am I a regular user.  Maybe a couple times a year. It can be quite nice.  

From what I observe, there are two things that for me seem to be the worst things you can do for your health.  smoke, and being overweight.  Nothing ages a person quicker than being over weight.  Nothing causes immobility as you get older as much as being over weight.  Just look around you.  It doesn't take a revelation from God to tell you that caring a lot of extra weight eventually will debilitate you, and probably cause a much earlier death.  We only have one life.  I can't imaging caring around an extra 50 lbs throughout that life.  Just my observation and opinion.  

Specifically I wanted to talk to you about mushrooms.  I have done shrooms twice.  Both times, amazing.  One of the best two nights of my life.  What an experience.  I am a very visual person and for me, it hyper increases all of my senses.  You see color in things that normally look bland.  Like all of the subtles of color stand out.  Your sense of touch and hearing is heightened as well.  Both times I took shrooms, I was with my partner who didn't take any.  I think that was important.  Someone there that you trust who can make you feel secure and just enjoy the experience.  And I did it outside in a safe environment.  Would I do it again?  Yes, in the right environment, with the right person.  I wouldn't do it on my own or without having someone there that was not doing it.  In some ways, it is like scuba diving in the Caribbean.  When you are diving and you see the amazing life that exists just 30 feet down, you think:  Some people go their whole lives and not experience this.  I kinda feel the same about my experience with mushrooms.  I am not trying to talk anyone into doing this.  I am just relating my experience.  

 

I've heard some have pretty significant spiritual experiences as well. That would be nice for me to have, I'd love to for once really feel or see the Divine. 

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12 hours ago, Calm said:

Maidservant, you might want to keep an eye on ketamine infusions coupled with psychotherapy. It is currently experimental, but with the number of people trying it, hopefully some good data will be available soon. I know the UofU was doing a study on it last year.

A nasal spray version is past the experimental phase and has received FDA approval in March for treatment of depression.  It is not something that you can pick up at a pharmacy - it has to be taken in a clinic.

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I remember being 5, sitting i our avacado green living room in SeaTac and my parents explaining to me that the prophet said “no more coke and no more playing cards.”

Coke was a family tradition, and it was hard to give up. 

Now, I see it as more of a human opinion than as the will of God.  I’m with others- it’s hard to justify claims that God wants us to abstain from caffeine without also saying that God wants us to be weight conscious. 

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I remember being 5, sitting i our avacado green living room in SeaTac and my parents explaining to me that the prophet said “no more coke and no more playing cards.”

Coke was a family tradition, and it was hard to give up. 

Now, I see it as more of a human opinion than as the will of God.  I’m with others- it’s hard to justify claims that God wants us to abstain from caffeine without also saying that God wants us to be weight conscious. 

My grandfather was a stake president when he taught me and my brothers and my cousins to play po ker. I think I was 6 at the time, maybe 7. We still play at family reunions and trips but we do not play for money.

My grandfather was kind of a J Golden Kimball lite. No swearing but he played fast and loose with the rules. He was a Deacon’s quorum advisor and decided to take his quorum to see General Conference (he was in California). He put them all in the car and had the deacons take turns driving......yeah.....12 and 13 year olds. I spoke to one of his deacons and he told me my grandpa was on a hike and suddenly turned and pointed a gun at him....or so he though.....grandpa fired and killed a snake that was coiled up near the kid’s feet that he had not seen. As a stake President he instituted an 11th commandment for his stake: “Thou shalt keep thy commitments.” He built a cable ride for his grandchildren at his cabin. He had weak taste buds so he made the best lemonade. So much sugar. It was delicious. He was also very devoted to the gospel. He helped my other grandmother give up coffee by telling her to call him whenever she was tempted....even at work. He took me aside after my baptism and told me he had started saving for my mission and told me to do the same.

Wow, I am in a nostalgic mood today. I need to stop derailing threads. :( 

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I remember being 5, sitting i our avacado green living room in SeaTac and my parents explaining to me that the prophet said “no more coke and no more playing cards.”

Coke was a family tradition, and it was hard to give up. 

My parents taught us that playing cards were "tools of the Devil" and I grew up thinking this.  I was shocked to see boys bring them to scout camp :) 

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6 hours ago, california boy said:

Well, unlike a lot of you guys, I now know exactly what I would do about the WOW if I left the church.  So here is how it all played out for me.  I no longer believe it was some kind of revelation, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea behind it all.  I never drink wine.  Tried one glass.  That stuff is nasty.  My friend that gave it to me assured me it was an acquired taste.  Who needs to acquire a taste for something so high in calories and not all that good for you.  I would rather choose dessert.  Beer, I can't get past the smell of it.  Never even tried it.  Tobacco.  please.  You would have to be an idiot to want to smoke knowing what we know about tobacco IMO.  Coffee.  Don't drink it much.  I spend a lot of time in Europe, and sometimes in the late afternoon, sitting at a cafe having a cappuccino is just pleasant.  More of a relaxing ritual than a habit.  Hard liquor. I have to say an occasional mojito can be quite nice.  Most hard liquor is just nasty tasting.  Drugs, not really into drugs.  I have tried a few.  Not really my thing.  Tried smoking marijuana, but my lungs are just not going to take the smoke.  I cough like crazy to the point that it seems pointless.  I have done edibles.  Much better for me.  By no means am I a regular user.  Maybe a couple times a year. It can be quite nice.  

From what I observe, there are two things that for me seem to be the worst things you can do for your health.  smoke, and being overweight.  Nothing ages a person quicker than being over weight.  Nothing causes immobility as you get older as much as being over weight.  Just look around you.  It doesn't take a revelation from God to tell you that caring a lot of extra weight eventually will debilitate you, and probably cause a much earlier death.  We only have one life.  I can't imaging caring around an extra 50 lbs throughout that life.  Just my observation and opinion.  

Specifically I wanted to talk to you about mushrooms.  I have done shrooms twice.  Both times, amazing.  One of the best two nights of my life.  What an experience.  I am a very visual person and for me, it hyper increases all of my senses.  You see color in things that normally look bland.  Like all of the subtles of color stand out.  Your sense of touch and hearing is heightened as well.  Both times I took shrooms, I was with my partner who didn't take any.  I think that was important.  Someone there that you trust who can make you feel secure and just enjoy the experience.  And I did it outside in a safe environment.  Would I do it again?  Yes, in the right environment, with the right person.  I wouldn't do it on my own or without having someone there that was not doing it.  In some ways, it is like scuba diving in the Caribbean.  When you are diving and you see the amazing life that exists just 30 feet down, you think:  Some people go their whole lives and not experience this.  I kinda feel the same about my experience with mushrooms.  I am not trying to talk anyone into doing this.  I am just relating my experience.  

 

I would probably experiment if there were no Word of Wisdom. I like the smell of coffee but hate the taste. Alcohol tastes gross. Tobacco is such a weak stimulant to exchange for the risks. Marijuana smoke gives me a headache (found that out on my mission after a particularly interesting discussion. I am like you. I would want someone I trust with me if I tried something out and would research it a lot beforehand. I also have a high substance addiction threshold so I doubt I would be an addict on anything before regular use of something like meth or crack. I was on opiates for a while for pain and I got nothing beyond pain relief and gave them up without a second thought. I am also of the opinion that the habitual use of drugs is cheating. Having amazing experiences is something you should be able to do without them.

I was recently put on prescription amphetamines and yeah, I get the color thing. It is odd. I am a non-visual thinker. I think in concepts and words and almost always dream that way. On these I have dreamed in color and do more thinking in images and things in the world seem brighter and more vivid when I am on them. It is a small dose so it is not mind blowing but it is nice. Of course the much bigger benefit is treating the actual disorder and making it easier for me to function and be happy but the fringe benefits are nice too. So maybe it is just stimulants that affect me more. Hmmmmmm.....something to think on.

 

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"Lips that touch Coca Cola shall never touch mine." Said a female friend in 1963. Jokingly.

My friend also said these words in 1976/1977, not necessarily in a extremely serious way but as a confirmation that Coke or Pepsi were not allowed.

M.

Edited by Maureen

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14 minutes ago, ALarson said:

My parents taught us that playing cards were "tools of the Devil" and I grew up thinking this.  I was shocked to see boys bring them to scout camp :) 

I was more shocked at how badly the other scouts played and some of their rule misconceptions......one guy thought that if two people had pairs the high hand was the hand with the highest kicker. Thus a pair of deuces with an ace was better then a pair of aces. I was getting into gambling for real for fun and because I thought I would be good at it right before President Hinckley gave a General Conference talk on the sin of gambling. Le sigh. My career was over before it began. Or, I guess I can say I met my pok er goals early and retired on top.

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3 minutes ago, Maureen said:

My friend also said these words in 1976/1977, not necessarily in a extremely serious way but as a confirmation that Coke or Pepsi were not allowed.

M.

 

lips-that-touch-liquor-shall-not-touch-o

 

560.jpg

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23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

My parents taught us that playing cards were "tools of the Devil" and I grew up thinking this.  I was shocked to see boys bring them to scout camp :) 

Lol- that sounds funny now to you, I’m sure. 

It can be hard to resolve the reality that in youth, things looked SO BAD when in reality it was not a thing.  It can make you wonder, hu, is it all just false?   

I did that to my kids when I didn’t allow them to watch sponge bob.  They now give me absolute grief for that, and I’m like, shrug, I was dumb.  Spong Bob is hilarious.  But I’m still adamant that the word Stupid is a bad word. ;)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are some good non-alcoholic beers.

Postum (which I grew up drinking and which I still buy) is made from barley. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, JulieM said:

Maybe you read what I stated wrong?

I said that this wasn’t the claim.   So I agree with you.

If you agree that temple recommends weren’t denied or Church callings withheld over cola consumption, it is inconsistent of you to hold with ALarson in saying it was prohibited. What sanctions were imposed for violating the prohibition if there was one?

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

... Marijuana smoke gives me a headache (found that out on my mission after a particularly interesting discussion. ...

Elder Nehor teaches Cheech and Chong? ;) :D 

(Sorry.  Couldn't resist!)

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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've heard some have pretty significant spiritual experiences as well. That would be nice for me to have, I'd love to for once really feel or see the Divine. 

Drugs are not a path to the divine. Some claim it does but they are conflating happiness or awe with divinity.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ALarson said:

My parents taught us that playing cards were "tools of the Devil" and I grew up thinking this.  I was shocked to see boys bring them to scout camp :) 

Wow, that brings back memories.  Those are the exact words my grandpa would use for playing cards (tools of the devil)!

Edited by JulieM

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you agree that temple recommends weren’t denied or Church callings withheld over cola consumption, it is inconsistent of you to hold with ALarson in saying it was prohibited. What sanctions were imposed for violating the prohibition if there was one?

For an example, if Member "A" believed that the prohibition of Coke or Pepsi were part of the Word of Wisdom and this same member slipped up and drank a glass of Coke one afternoon - during a recommend interview when asked if he kept the Word of Wisdom and being honest and feeling guilty he said "No"; wouldn't he be denied a Recommend?

M.

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26 minutes ago, Maureen said:

For an example, if Member "A" believed that the prohibition of Coke or Pepsi were part of the Word of Wisdom and this same member slipped up and drank a glass of Coke one afternoon - during a recommend interview when asked if he kept the Word of Wisdom and being honest and feeling guilty he said "No"; wouldn't he be denied a Recommend?

M.

Said member would be incorrect in his assumption that drinking Coke would keep him out of the temple. Ideally, the priesthood leader would probe a bit to ascertain why Member A believed he was not keeping the Word of Wisdom and, hearing the response, would readily assure  Member A that consumption of Coke was indeed not grounds for denying him a recommend. 

But how likely is your hypothetical scenario anyway? If Member A truly believed consuming Coke rendered him ineligible for a temple recommend, why would he be seeking a recommend in the first place?

But this is peripheral to the point. ALarson said that in the past, drinking soda that contained caffeine was “prohibited” in the Church. Yet he has not disagreed that one could always serve in the temple or hold Church callings despite drinking it. And he thus far has failed to answer the question that if indeed it was prohibited, what penalty or sanction was imposed for violating the prohibition. 

JulieM asserted that the difference between “discouraged” and “prohibited” is only semantics. But they are not equivalent, and no amount or degree of spin will make them so. 

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I joined the Church at age 14, all by myself, so I wasn't particularly habituated to anything.

The "hardest" thing for me to do when I joined the Church was to give up tea.  But it still wasn't hard.  I remember the last time I almost drank a glass of iced tea.  Just before I drank it I suddenly remembered I'd told the missionaries that I would keep the WoW from now on. 

Before joining the Church I'd drink coffee occasionally, but always dolled up with plenty of milk and sugar.  I love the smell of it when it is brewing, and especially when it is being roasted, but it tastes like crap; not hard to give up at all!

As for alcohol, my parents only drank occasionally, and I only saw my father being tipsy exactly once.  Sometime when I was 12 my stepmom taught me how to make her favorite drink, which she called a "salty dog," and once in a while she'd ask me to make her one.  I think I can count the number of times this happened on one hand.  I never once tasted it, just made it according to her recipe.  But I acquired a taste for grapefruit juice as a result!  With salt instead of sugar!  I like lemon juice the same way. My dad got a nice promotion at work one time when I was around 12, and he brought home a bottle of champagne to celebrate with my stepmom -- and he let me have some -- made me feel very grown up!  They usually kept a gallon jug of cheap burgundy in an outside refrigerator, and I sampled it a few times.  I rather liked the stuff, actually.  I think I got the occasional sip of beer when aunts and uncles came around, but that stuff doesn't really taste very good.  After I joined the Church I only "backslid" on alcohol once.  When I turned 18, my dad asked me to do him the favor of letting him buy me my first and last drink (this was England, when the drinking age was 18).  I said OK, and so he bought me a little glass of a nice liqueur, "Cointreau".  I liked it, but that was indeed my last drink.  Except once when I wondered why my stepbrother was so in love with Jim Beam whiskey; I tasted it without intending to swallow it, and immediately spat it into the bathroom sink.  Nasty stuff!!

When I was eight or so my little brother (who was five at the time) taught himself how to smoke a pipe -- dad had a pipe rack and he would sometimes smoke a bowlful in the evening. My brother was very observant, and was quite a mischief maker in any case (our mother had died of cancer and so for a few years -- until dad remarried -- we lacked supervision around the house sometimes).  So my brother showed me how it was done, and offered to me to take a puff.  I refused, but he persuaded me to give it a go.  Finally I did so, inhaling once and coughing my lungs out as a result.  I thought it was the stupidest thing that had ever been invented and never even considered smoking.  By the way, my brother smoked from that age (5) for something like 30 years.  But these days my bro is a TBM and keeps the WoW like he's supposed to. 

I've never had anything to do with any kind of recreational drugs.  Gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it.

Now as to why do I keep the Word of Wisdom?  It's partly obedience, and partly fear.  I have some family history of alcoholism.  My mother's father ruined his life with alcohol -- he died a few months before I was born, so I never met him.  So I fear that if I got started with alcohol I might grow to like it too much.  The other part of that is fear of giving control of myself over to a substance.  I like my brain the way it is, thanks very much.  As for the other things, I would never have smoked, quite apart from the WoW; coffee was never very interesting; tea was more attractive, but not really.  If I ever left the Church, I would probably continue to keep the Word of Wisdom.  It's part of who I am.

I drink caffeinated drinks, however.  I don't consider caffeine to be a part of the WoW -- some of you may have discussed this with me in other threads in the past.  Caffeine doesn't cause me any trouble, because I am very moderate in its consumption.  Once when I was in the Army and out in the field on an exercise, food didn't materialize for an extended period, but I had a six-pack of Mountain Dew.  So I drank about three cans, mainly for the sugar, on an empty stomach, and got cold sweats and the shakes!  Not sure if it was the caffeine or the sugar, actually, but it taught me to be more careful about it.  In the Army, because I didn't smoke, drink or cuss I got the nickname "Preacher" in one of the units I served with.  Even though I didn't talk about religion at all with them.  

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If you agree that temple recommends weren’t denied or Church callings withheld over cola consumption, it is inconsistent of you to hold with ALarson in saying it was prohibited. What sanctions were imposed for violating the prohibition if there was one?

The stake president in the stake I served my mission out of apparently would deny a TR to someone who drank cola drinks.  Or so I was told.  I am sure that some bishops or stake presidents might have gone that way, thinking that was an official stance on the matter.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The stake president in the stake I served my mission out of apparently would deny a TR to someone who drank cola drinks.  Or so I was told.  I am sure that some bishops or stake presidents might have gone that way, thinking that was an official stance on the matter.

That happens sometimes. As much as I sometimes dislike the bad practice of putting the “current handbook” over the scriptures, this is a case where a small would handbook come in handy. Bishops and SP need to stick to the guidelines and interpretations in there because that stops freelancing like that. 

Edited by SettingDogStar

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9 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Said member would be incorrect in his assumption that drinking Coke would keep him out of the temple. Ideally, the priesthood leader would probe a bit to ascertain why Member A believed he was not keeping the Word of Wisdom and, hearing the response, would readily assure  Member A that consumption of Coke was indeed not grounds for denying him a recommend. 

But how likely is your hypothetical scenario anyway? If Member A truly believed consuming Coke rendered him ineligible for a temple recommend, why would he be seeking a recommend in the first place?... 

1. What if the priesthood leader interviewing him agreed that he had indeed broke the WofW due to the Coke?

2. Maybe he was told it was time for his Recommend interview and he complied.

M.

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5 hours ago, pogi said:

A nasal spray version is past the experimental phase and has received FDA approval in March for treatment of depression.  It is not something that you can pick up at a pharmacy - it has to be taken in a clinic.

Yep, that is on my list to try if this latest version of depression doesn't lighten up (it is a 'good' depression since it is likely the result of lowering my drugs and my body just taking longer to get around to realizing that's okay).  I suspect it doesn't give quite the 'trip' the infusion does.  My daughter did the infusion a couple of times in November before deciding too much else was going on in a negative way for it to be worth it (insurance doesn't cover it).  She really enjoyed it, but long term effects?  It is supposed to theoretically give one access to memories or feelings one doesn't usually engage so as to be able to rewrite old trauma or mental habits.  I may try it myself to see if it helps with stuff I know intellectually, but can't get past the gut response.

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Posted (edited)

Nevermind

Edited by Stargazer

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

got nothing beyond pain relief and gave them up without a second thought

Same here.  I get a migraine before a high.  Really annoying.  Am-bien is the only drug that was ever fun.  And that went to the dark side a while back.  :(

Edited by Calm

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