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MustardSeed

What motivates you to live the WOW?

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Oh I know Hamba (and completely agree). But the question and discussion was about what church leaders have stated about caffeine.

All that Church leaders have stated is what you and I already know: that caffeine is a drug and that recreational use of drugs is not a good idea.

Yesterday, we had someone die from putting caffeine powder in his protein shake. 

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47 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This is kind of odd coming from you, but I respect your right to disagree (and I've seen no one claim it kept anyone from temple service or holding callings?)

I just think that "no to caffeine" from a Prophet is pretty straight forward without much wiggle room.

But let's just agree to disagree.....again :) 

Look at the context. He was trying to give concise, sound-byte-size answers to a national news commentator in a televised interview before a viewing audience of mostly non-members of the Church. In a way, that’s what made him such an effective communicator**. He probably didn’t want to get into the weeds or slow down the pace of the interview by talking about gray areas like the Church’s position on cola consumption. 

And you did use the word “prohibit” pertaining to soft drinks with caffeine. That is counterfactual. The only way to prohibit consumption of them in the Church would be to impose sanctions such as denial of a temple recommend or withholding Church callings. It appears from your post here that you acknowledge that normally never happened. So I have to wonder what you mean by “prohibit.” Both of those things happen as a consequence when Church members consume tea or coffee. That is where the prohibiting comes in. That’s why I say your comparison of the Church’s position on tea and coffee compared to its position on sodas with caffeine, past or present, is faulty.

As I just said to MustardSeed, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. 

**I have interviewed President Hinckley, both one-on-one and in a press conference. He was a great interview. He was educated at the prestigious Columbia School of Journalism and would have followed journalism as a career path had he not been channeled into Church employment very early on. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Look at the context. He was trying to give concise, sound-byte-size answers to a national news commentator in a televised interview to a viewing audience of mostly non-members of the Church. In a way, that’s what made him such an effective news commentator. He probably didn’t want to get into the weeds or slow down the pace of the interview by talking about gray areas like the Church’s position on cola consumption. 

And you did use the word “prohibit” pertaining to soft drinks with caffeine. That is counterfactual. The only way to prohibit consumption of them in the Church would be to impose sanctions such as denial of a temple recommend or withholding Church callings. It appears from your post here that you acknowledge that never happened. So I have to wonder what you mean by “prohibit.” Both of those things happen when Church members consume tea or coffee. That is where the prohibiting comes in. That’s why I say your comparison of the Church’s position on tea and coffee compared to its position on sodas with caffeine, past or present, is faulty.

As I just said to MustardSeed, you are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts. 

 

I think you’re just talking about semantics now.  Pres. Hinckley did state this more than once, though. 

Prohibit is a strong word but for sure there was straight forward statements from some church leaders to say no to caffeine (and I think you are the one who started using the word “forbidden” here which is a strong word too.)  I know my parents would have never had a coke and believed the Prophet was saying it was a sin to do so.  It was for sure more than just a suggestion from President Hinckley and others, imo.

Its certainly not worth arguing over though.  I am grateful for change and more leniency (and so are many BYU students who can now get a Coke on campus that has caffeine because it did seem to be prohibited to sell it there before 😏).

Edited by JulieM
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31 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yesterday, we had someone die from putting caffeine powder in his protein shake. 

Oh wow!  How much did they put in the shake?  That’s awful!!!

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7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

"Lips that touch Coca Cola shall never touch mine." Said a female friend in 1963. Jokingly.

That’s funny.  But I do know some who took the Prophet’s words very seriously (my parents did!).

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18 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I think you’re just talking about semantics now.  Pres. Hinckley did state this more than once, though. 

Prohibit is a strong word but for sure there was straight forward statements from some church leaders to say no to caffeine.  I know my parents would have never had a coke and believed the Prophet was saying it was a sin to do so.  It was for sure more than just a suggestion from President Hinckley and others, imo.

Its certainly not worth arguing over though.  I am grateful for change and more leniency (and so are many BYU students who can now get a Coke on campus that has caffeine because it did seem to be prohibited to sell it before there 😏).

It was ALarson who used the word “prohibit,” and he has not yet retracted it. That is what I am contesting. It is counter factual to say that the Church ever prohibited consumption of cola or other soft drinks with caffeine. Sure, it was discouraged for a time, which I have acknowledged all along. But that is not the same thing as prohibiting it. 

Tea and coffee consumption has long been prohibited in the Church;  consumption of soft drinks with caffeine never has. 

If you are intellectually honest, you must acknowledge the difference. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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11 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That’s funny.  But I do know some who took the Prophet’s words very seriously (my parents did!).

It’s still good advice. And the Church leaders have never expressly approved of consuming soft drinks containing caffeine, though they have remained silent on the subject for quite a while. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It’s still good advice. 

Oh, I agree!  I actually don’t drink any soda (with or without caffeine).  

Edited by JulieM
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3 hours ago, JulieM said:

The claim wasn’t that you couldn’t get a Temple recommend (that I saw at least).

I drank caffeine in sodas on occasion from my childhood until now. I was never asked about it or withheld a temple recommend because of it, even when a student at BYU when caffeine products weren’t sold on campus. And I never heard of anyone counseling against excedrine.  

Are you aware of anyone who lost a recommend over it?

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17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I drank caffeine in sodas on occasion from my childhood until now. I was never asked about it or withheld a temple recommend because of it, even when a student at BYU when caffeine products weren’t sold on campus. And I never heard of anyone counseling against excedrine.  

Are you aware of anyone who lost a recommend over it?

I think caffeinated soft drink taboos can be a regional thing.  We would have regular Coke and Diet Coke at youth activities in California along with other options.  Never heard anyone freak out about it.  I still drink way too much Coke Zero.  I guess that is my vice.  Could be worse.

Edited by california boy

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55 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Its certainly not worth arguing over though.  I am grateful for change and more leniency (and so are many BYU students who can now get a Coke on campus that has caffeine because it did seem to be prohibited to sell it there before 😏).

It was not offered for sale on campus, but consumption of it, on or off campus, was certainly not prohibited. One was free to obtain it elsewhere without jeopardizing his standing as either a Church member or student. 

I enrolled in the 1970s, so I think that’s long enough ago to give my observation some weight. 

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4 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I wouldn’t care if President Nelson said it, I would only care if the Lord said it through His prophet. Anything other then that is opinion or interpretation of scripture.

edit: that’s not supposed to be aggressive, just my opinion haha

I agree, but this does raise an issue with the way the "word of wisdom" in the scriptures has evolved into a commandment.  The elevation to commandment with associated penalties (no temple recommend or church callings) was done without (to the best of my knowledge) a revelation.   It just evolved, kind of like the Priesthood ban.

I would be more than happy to change my opinion about this if someone could just point to a revelation that changed the WofW to a commandment.

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17 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I agree, but this does raise an issue with the way the "word of wisdom" in the scriptures has evolved into a commandment.  The elevation to commandment with associated penalties (no temple recommend or church callings) was done without (to the best of my knowledge) a revelation.   It just evolved, kind of like the Priesthood ban.

I would be more than happy to change my opinion about this if someone could just point to a revelation that changed the WofW to a commandment.

What is the reason that Brigham did not believe the word of wisdom revelation to convert into a commandment deserved changing the wording in section 89?  For example using wine for the sacrament is ok if it's traceable to dixie wine manufactured by ourselves.  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Well, unlike a lot of you guys, I now know exactly what I would do about the WOW if I left the church.  So here is how it all played out for me.  I no longer believe it was some kind of revelation, but that doesn't mean I don't like the idea behind it all.  I never drink wine.  Tried one glass.  That stuff is nasty.  My friend that gave it to me assured me it was an acquired taste.  Who needs to acquire a taste for something so high in calories and not all that good for you.  I would rather choose dessert.  Beer, I can't get past the smell of it.  Never even tried it.  Tobacco.  please.  You would have to be an idiot to want to smoke knowing what we know about tobacco IMO.  Coffee.  Don't drink it much.  I spend a lot of time in Europe, and sometimes in the late afternoon, sitting at a cafe having a cappuccino is just pleasant.  More of a relaxing ritual than a habit.  Hard liquor. I have to say an occasional mojito can be quite nice.  Most hard liquor is just nasty tasting.  Drugs, not really into drugs.  I have tried a few.  Not really my thing.  Tried smoking marijuana, but my lungs are just not going to take the smoke.  I cough like crazy to the point that it seems pointless.  I have done edibles.  Much better for me.  By no means am I a regular user.  Maybe a couple times a year. It can be quite nice.  

 

Quote

From what I observe, there are two things that for me seem to be the worst things you can do for your health.  smoke, and being overweight.  Nothing ages a person quicker than being over weight.  Nothing causes immobility as you get older as much as being over weight.  Just look around you.  It doesn't take a revelation from God to tell you that caring a lot of extra weight eventually will debilitate you, and probably cause a much earlier death.  We only have one life.  I can't imaging caring around an extra 50 lbs throughout that life.  Just my observation and opinion.  

Specifically I wanted to talk to you about mushrooms.  I have done shrooms twice.  Both times, amazing.  One of the best two nights of my life.  What an experience.  I am a very visual person and for me, it hyper increases all of my senses.  You see color in things that normally look bland.  Like all of the subtles of color stand out.  Your sense of touch and hearing is heightened as well.  Both times I took shrooms, I was with my partner who didn't take any.  I think that was important.  Someone there that you trust who can make you feel secure and just enjoy the experience.  And I did it outside in a safe environment.  Would I do it again?  Yes, in the right environment, with the right person.  I wouldn't do it on my own or without having someone there that was not doing it.  In some ways, it is like scuba diving in the Caribbean.  When you are diving and you see the amazing life that exists just 30 feet down, you think:  Some people go their whole lives and not experience this.  I kinda feel the same about my experience with mushrooms.  I am not trying to talk anyone into doing this.  I am just relating my experience.  

 

I appreciate you describing this as it shows me that my feelings about those things for myself fit. 

While I haven't felt what seems like heightened sight or hearing my emotions are often heightened with low blood sugar and over 40 years I've experienced both good and bad emotions.  I've felt them enough to recognize, for me, they aren't real and even though fun in my teens at times, I just really hate it now.  Part of it I just see as those emotions, whether good or bad, were false and that really bothers me.

One could say low blood sugar is dangerous and in a more controlled environment like you describe it isn't so much, but for me going through this so many times what you describe makes me sure I would stay away from it. So I appreciate that your description verifies my feelings about it.

Edited by Rain
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15 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Remove that comma and you end up with the Lord saying that He is displeased when we only use them in the winter. Not sure if that comma was there before or if it was ever interpreted that way. It's funny to think though that we take one part of the WoW so seriously that a little coffee (the devils bean juice) can get you locked out of the Temple but over eating meat isn't gonna do a thing. 

Agreed,.......but drinking a mild barley drink.....which is clearly allowed in the text.....would be so forbidden as well. 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

I drank caffeine in sodas on occasion from my childhood until now. I was never asked about it or withheld a temple recommend because of it, even when a student at BYU when caffeine products weren’t sold on campus. And I never heard of anyone counseling against excedrine.  

Are you aware of anyone who lost a recommend over it?

Maybe you read what I stated wrong?

I said that this wasn’t the claim.   So I agree with you.

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As a non-LDS person reading this thread, I suddenly realized I was finishing up my third cup of coffee.

Whoops. 

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11 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

As a non-LDS person reading this thread, I suddenly realized I was finishing up my third cup of coffee.

Whoops. 

😂

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5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yesterday, we had someone die from putting caffeine powder in his protein shake. 

😲

How do they already know the cause of death?

(Maybe they had a caffeine allergy?)

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4 hours ago, JulieM said:

Oh wow!  How much did they put in the shake?

A teaspoon.

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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

How do they already know the cause of death?

Sorry, I double-checked. The coroner's report was released yesterday. The death was some time ago. No allergy, just an overdose. 

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18 minutes ago, caspianrex said:

As a non-LDS person reading this thread, I suddenly realized I was finishing up my third cup of coffee.

Whoops. 

Good for you!  You're not under covenant to obey the Word of Wisdom so ... by all means, enjoy your coffee! :D;)

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5 hours ago, JulieM said:

That’s funny.  But I do know some who took the Prophet’s words very seriously (my parents did!).

So did Sister Gui. She still won’t partake, but she will kiss me. I’m ok with that. I think we all should take the Prophet’s words seriously.

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2 hours ago, snowflake said:

Agreed,.......but drinking a mild barley drink.....which is clearly allowed in the text.....would be so forbidden as well. 

There are some good non-alcoholic beers.

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