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MustardSeed

What motivates you to live the WOW?

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3 hours ago, ALarson said:

I agree.  But at one time, leaders did state that consuming caffeine was prohibited or wrong.  They've backed away from saying that now which is one change that's already occurred.  I can see more possibly in the future (regarding tea or coffee consumption).

False equivalence. Unlike coffee and tea, (and contrary to your above statement) soda beverages with caffeine never were prohibited by the Church. Discouraged, yes. Prohibited, no. Essentially  nothing has changed. You’ve always been able to get a temple recommend or hold a calling despite being a Coke or Pepsi drinker. And there hasn’t been a statement by Church leaders about cola beverages in several decades. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

 

Wow, that may be the last time I report a truncated version of a long, friendly, edifying conversation ... :rolleyes:

I was about to express regret for having opened the door to this pile-on with my offhand comment. None of us were there to witness the conversation or to see the rapport that ensued between Hamba and the cashier. It may well have been friendly banter. And after all, Hamba did make a good point. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

False equivalence. Unlike coffee and tea, (and contrary to your above statement) soda beverages with caffeine never were prohibited by the Church. Discouraged, yes. Prohibited, no. Essentially  nothing has changed. You’ve always been able to get a temple recommend or hold a calling despite being a Coke or Pepsi drinker. And there hasn’t been a statement by Church leaders about cola beverages in several decades. 

"Lips that touch Coca Cola shall never touch mine." Said a female friend in 1963. Jokingly.

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

False equivalence. Unlike coffee and tea, (and contrary to your above statement) soda beverages with caffeine never were prohibited by the Church. Discouraged, yes. Prohibited, no. Essentially  nothing has changed. You’ve always been able to get a temple recommend or hold a calling despite being a Coke or Pepsi drinker. And there hasn’t been a statement by Church leaders about cola beverages in several decades. 

Not to be argumentative but my dad was told he had to stop drinking coke to be bishop.  this was in the 80s.  he also had to shave his beard.  Nothing was said about his crabby attitude. ;)

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I remember talking to a guy i was dating a bit about this. He was coming back to church. He Wanted to be LDS, but not 100% sure what that looked like for him. He liked to drink a bit here and there and would often mention how BY had a distillery and that it wasn’t as strictly expected back then and such. I told him something along the lines that it didn’t matter to me what BY did. It was my covenant with God and what hHe asked of me. That i was at a point in my life that if God asked me to jump off a cliff i’d ask “which ons?” So obedience does play a factor in it, particularly with green tea (i’ve had it from time to time mixed in drinks without me knowing and i’ve like those..so i figure i’d like it). 

At the same time i believe and can see the reasons behind it. And that includes drinks like coffee. I don’t every part if the WoW directly effects my individual health. But that it’s there as a safeguard to others who might have an unexpected issue and probably groups of people as well with some of the practices and social issues surrounding production and distribution over the years. 

Beyond the don’t’s to the WOW, i do have a diet pretty close to what it proscribes and i feel best when i’m near to it. I’ve seen many of the blessings that are tied to it in my life.

I don’t know if there’s a huge danger of doing it because you want a recommend or because it’s what’s expected of us or whatever else. Or at least any more dangerous than other parts of the gospel or church that people do the same thing for. I do think it’s better to truly believe or desire a practice in one’s life, though. 

With luv,

BD

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7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Not to be argumentative but my dad was told he had to stop drinking coke to be bishop.  this was in the 80s.  he also had to shave his beard.  Nothing was said about his crabby attitude. ;)

The beard thing hardly surprises me. Even today, members in highly visible Church positions on a local or general level are asked to be clean shaven, as are missionaries and (where I live, at least) temple ordinance workers. 

Before being bishop, was he eligible to hold Church callings despite drinking Coke? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

False equivalence. Unlike coffee and tea, (and contrary to your above statement) soda beverages with caffeine never were prohibited by the Church. Discouraged, yes. Prohibited, no. 

Yes they were (if they had caffeine in them).  There are a lot of quotes but this one is pretty clear:

“Larry King: No to caffeine?

Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml”

 

Edited by JulieM

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4 hours ago, Maidservant said:

Thank you for your firsthand perspective.  (I was aware of the purging aspect.)

 

This is not my purpose whatsoever. I believe that the quest for ecstasy and bliss as the primary quest of life modifies many human's decision making for the worse, regardless of whether that quest has to do with substances or anything in life.

 

Sure, anyone can.  It would be on me to find the best help for any method of healing I wished to pursue of any kind.  And there is always the chance in our society to be mistaken in who we trust for help even after all the research we can do.

Maidservant, you might want to keep an eye on ketamine infusions coupled with psychotherapy. It is currently experimental, but with the number of people trying it, hopefully some good data will be available soon. I know the UofU was doing a study on it last year.

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4 hours ago, pogi said:

I wouldn’t rule out all “mind bending” drugs as valid treatments  for certain conditions.  A version of the club drug called Special K (ketamine) has been proven to be a miracle drug for many dealing with severe depression - an instant cure where other traditional treatments have failed.  It is awesome because of its quick results and continuous use is not needed.

Should have read one more post, lol. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

False equivalence. Unlike coffee and tea, (and contrary to your above statement) soda beverages with caffeine never were prohibited by the Church. \

You're wrong here, Scott.

Here's more quotes (Julie already provided one that was very specifically stated):

Quote

In 1975, Bishop H. Burke Peterson of the presiding Bishopric stated in the New Era: 

"We know that cola drinks contain the drug caffeine. We know caffeine is not wholesome nor prudent for the use of our bodies. It is only sound judgment to conclude that cola drinks and any others that contain caffeine or other harmful ingredients should not be used."

In 1980 in the Ensign, Elder Sterling W. Sill stated: "In the Word of Wisdom the Lord so narrowed down the width of the road leading to good health that, among other things, he placed alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine out of bounds."

Quote

In an interview with Mike Wallace on 60 Minutes, the following conversation took place:

Wallace: Mormons adhere to a very strict health code. No alcohol, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea, not even caffeinated soft drinks...
Hinkley: Right.

Quote

One year later in an interview, David Ransom and President Hinckley had the following exchange in which President Hinckley asserted that coffee was to be avoid precisely because it has caffeine:

Ransom: But you do condemn so many things that are commonly accepted. For example, no sex before marriage. No tobacco, no alcohol, no gambling not even coffee.
Hinckley: Yeah that's right.
Ransom: And very, very strict.
Hinckley: That's wonderful. And you live longer. And you're happier. And you're healthier.
Ransom: What's wonderful about not drinking coffee?
Hinckley: Oh ah coffee has all kinds of caffeine in it.

I can find more quotes if you still disagree....

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26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The beard thing hardly surprises me. Even today, members in highly visible Church positions on a local or general level are asked to be clean shaven, as are missionaries and (where I live, at least) temple ordinance workers. 

Before being bishop, was he eligible to hold Church callings despite drinking Coke? 

Pure as gold,  my dad.   Always active and always involved.  

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2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

 

Wow, that may be the last time I report a truncated version of a long, friendly, edifying conversation ... :rolleyes:

I think it started because you used the word "challenged" when you first told what happened.  It made it seem a little aggressive.

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7 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

Most things people eat are not health food. 

Brilliant.

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1 hour ago, ALarson said:

You're wrong here, Scott.

Here's more quotes (Julie already provided one that was very specifically stated):

I can find more quotes if you still disagree....

But in favor of Scott, consuming caffeine was never prohibited in the essence that you couldn’t hold a temple recommend or be in good standing. It might have been preached heavily from the pulpit but to my knowledge no actual policy was out in place churchwide. Else my dad would have been cut off from the temple for years and years and my grandpa never could have been bishop in the 70s.

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2 hours ago, ALarson said:

You're wrong here, Scott.

Here's more quotes (Julie already provided one that was very specifically stated):

I can find more quotes if you still disagree....

None of this refutes what I said: Consuming soft drinks with caffeine was never forbidden in the Church, though for a  time it was discouraged. It was never the norm that drinking cola rendered one ineligible for temple service or holding Church callings. 

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2 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes they were (if they had caffeine in them).  There are a lot of quotes but this one is pretty clear:

“Larry King: No to caffeine?

Gordon B. Hinckley: No to caffeine, coffee and tea.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lkl_00.shtml”

 

This does not refute what I said. In the context of his own words, President Hinckley was referring specifically to tea and coffee. 

President Hinckley didn’t serve very long ago. Are you trying to tell me that during his presidency, drinking soda with caffeine would normally have kept a person out if the temple or from holding Church callings? That’s nonsense. 

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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This does not refute what I said. In the context of his own words, President Hinckley was referring specifically to tea and coffee. 

President Hinckley didn’t serve very long ago. Are you trying to tell me that during his presidency, drinking soda with caffeine would normally have kept a person out if the temple or from holding Church callings? That’s nonsense. 

But social pressure not to was a thing. No cfr, but I guess I have to say that’s my opinion even though I know it’s more than just that. :)

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This does not refute what I said. In the context of his own words, President Hinckley was referring specifically to tea and coffee. 

President Hinckley didn’t serve very long ago. Are you trying to tell me that during his presidency, drinking soda with caffeine would normally have kept a person out if the temple or from holding Church callings? That’s nonsense. 

The claim wasn’t that you couldn’t get a Temple recommend (that I saw at least).

I think if President Nelson said no caffeine, you’d obey that.  Temple recommend threat or not.

However, I’m glad they’ve backed off or relaxed about caffeine.

Edited by JulieM

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, JulieM said:

The claim wasn’t that you couldn’t get a Temple recommend (that I saw at least).

I think if President Nelson said no caffeine, you’d obey that.  Temple recommend threat or not.

However, I’m glad they’ve backed off or relaxed about caffeine.

I wouldn’t care if President Nelson said it, I would only care if the Lord said it through His prophet. Anything other then that is opinion or interpretation of scripture.

edit: that’s not supposed to be aggressive, just my opinion haha

Edited by SettingDogStar
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13 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I wouldn’t care if President Nelson said it, I would only care if the Lord said it through His prophet. Anything other then that is opinion or interpretation of scripture.

edit: that’s not supposed to be aggressive, just my opinion haha

I get what you’re saying.  But, how do you know if he’s just speaking as a man if Pres. Nelson said in an interview no caffeine?

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I get what you’re saying.  But, how do you know if he’s just speaking as a man if Pres. Nelson said in an interview no caffeine?

I mean number one, the Spirit will testify of the validity of the command. Without that we’ll never know really if it’s from God or not. Other signs of a true command is if it’s actually given as a command, meaning first person message from the Lord like 82% of the D&C. It will also have promises attached to it and have a similar wording, feel, and flow like other revelations, even if it isn’t that classic KJV style.

If the Lord wants an actual message or command to become binding on the church like consecration or tithing He will say it in first person. All commandments have been written to His people this way and they will continue to do so. However just because it’s a “thus saith the lord” doesn’t immediately make it binding since many have claimed to speak for God this way and are really just speaking for themselves.

Edited by SettingDogStar

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I think if President Nelson said no caffeine, you’d obey that.

I have a brain (plus three degrees and a postgraduate diploma). I don't need a prophet to tell me that caffeine is a drug or that recreational use of drugs is not a good idea.

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15 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have a brain (plus three degrees and a postgraduate diploma). I don't need a prophet to tell me that caffeine is a drug or that recreational use of drugs is not a good idea.

Oh I know Hamba (and completely agree). But the question and discussion was about what church leaders have stated about caffeine.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

None of this refutes what I said: Consuming soft drinks with caffeine was never forbidden in the Church, though for a  time it was discouraged. It was never the norm that drinking cola rendered one ineligible for temple service or holding Church callings. 

This is kind of odd coming from you, but I respect your right to disagree (and I've seen no one claim it kept anyone from temple service or holding callings?)

I just think that "no to caffeine" from a Prophet is pretty straight forward without much wiggle room.

But let's just agree to disagree.....again :) 

Edited by ALarson

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

But social pressure not to was a thing. No cfr, but I guess I have to say that’s my opinion even though I know it’s more than just that. :)

ALarson asserted that drinking cola was prohibited in the Church. That is just plain wrong. Discouraged? Yes, for a time. Prohibited? Never. He is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts. 

I don’t deny that formerly there was a degree of social pressure in the Church against cola consumption. I wish there still were. I don’t believe becoming habituated to a chemical is a good thing. 

But if there is social pressure today, it’s in the opposite direction. It can be hard to find non-caffeine drinks in soda fountains or vending machines. Often, Sprite is about the only option. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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