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MustardSeed

What motivates you to live the WOW?

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5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have a friend who is on the brink of leaving the church and lately has been talking about alcohol a lot. I have no doubt that when she leaves she will likely drink. This is A woman who has been a true blue black-and-white thinker her whole life, very invested in the church.It has me thinking about my values and why I choose to live them. I honestly don’t believe I would be interested in drinking alcohol if I were for some reason to leave the church. I don’t drink because I want to be clear of mind at all times to the very best of my ability And to be honest I’m proud of my sobriety. I spend much of my life around alcoholics  and drinkers and it’s just simply not a lifestyle That appeals to me in anyway. I’m very healthy in many ways, running weight lifting juicing mindfulness exercise etc.

I also believe God wants me to be clear minded. 

I admit that I only abstain from coffee because it’s a rule for the temple. I have not come to grips with a belief that God cares much about coffee but since I have committed to Him that I won’t, He expects me to have integrity so I abstain. 

How about you? 

I pretty much abstain out of habit.  I wasn't raised by parents or relatives who drank, and never really gave it much thought.  I did have a younger brother who liked to drink and do uppers and downers, and he bragged about it.  However, later he went to BYU, got a BS, and then graduated from medical school.  He did have a problem with smoking after that, and he tried to self-medicate out of that habit -- with only partial success.

I did spend four years in the USMC in barracks filled with guys who loved to get drunk in their off-hours, but it didn't look to me as though they were actually having fun.  I never felt the temptation to get drunk, smoke, or use illegal drugs, and feel very sorry for those who have that temptation -- I have known many drug addicts, some otherwise very good people.  I have always had more fun with a clear head, as you seem to realize.

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5 hours ago, longview said:

My youngest son (age 25) is an active proponent of mushrooms, cannabis, LSD and other mind altering substances.  Over a year ago he was out at night with what I call his counter-culture friends when he suddenly became extremely paranoid (he said he felt a powerful evil presence trying to smother him).  He made a straight beeline diagonally through the neighborhood (jumping over fences in the process and banging on rear sliding doors) trying to get to my house.  He jumped through his open bedroom window and sat down in the hallway quivering and crying.  Finally he called the police to get help.  When they arrived they woke me and my wife.  So he was taken to the emergency room.

Since then I would run across facebook posts and news articles about people becoming violent, psychotic, suicidal and whatever.  I would point them out to my son.  He dismissed them as propaganda.  I countered that it is Colorado government which is in favor of greater use of marijuanas in society, that conservative commentators strongly believe the system is underreporting the adverse effects among a segment of the users.  I told my son:  "It is my sincere conviction that the brain is extremely complex and very fragile.  You do NOT want to mess with it!"

Maidservant, please do not experiment with any of those drugs.

I'm deeply sorry to hear of this experience and the suffering of your son and yourself.

I am not going to be experimenting.  Micro-dosing is a very specific thing, and it would be done only under medical auspices.  But I don't know if it is really a good idea or not; there are some for, and some resisting it.  It would take a lot more study on my part (at a time when and if it becomes a medical option; not now at all).

Ayahuasca also will not be something I do by myself in my living room.  It is a jungle trip with shamans.  I am not certain this is in my future, but I have been drawn to it.  Likely it simply won't become a priority in this lifetime.  Again, it is not something to be habitual.  It is meant to be a sacred ceremony, done once or periodically, not recreational or daily.  It is meant to be accompanied by a deep holistic transformation and self-work; not a replacement for such.  You are right that it is not a toy nor a matter of simple curiosity.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have a friend who is on the brink of leaving the church and lately has been talking about alcohol a lot. I have no doubt that when she leaves she will likely drink. This is A woman who has been a true blue black-and-white thinker her whole life, very invested in the church.It has me thinking about my values and why I choose to live them. I honestly don’t believe I would be interested in drinking alcohol if I were for some reason to leave the church. I don’t drink because I want to be clear of mind at all times to the very best of my ability And to be honest I’m proud of my sobriety. I spend much of my life around alcoholics  and drinkers and it’s just simply not a lifestyle That appeals to me in anyway. I’m very healthy in many ways, running weight lifting juicing mindfulness exercise etc.

I also believe God wants me to be clear minded. 

I admit that I only abstain from coffee because it’s a rule for the temple. I have not come to grips with a belief that God cares much about coffee but since I have committed to Him that I won’t, He expects me to have integrity so I abstain. 

How about you? 

For me the motivations, apart from upbringing, are belief in revelation, the verity of prophetic direction, fealty to covenants and what I have observed about the substances proscribed. 

As for coffee, I’ve never seen anything particularly redeeming or appealing about it. 

I once had a summer job working on the grounds crew at a golf course. One morning, one of the co-workers remarked with a profane expletive for emphasis that he didn’t see how I could get going in the morning without a cup of coffee.  At that moment, I silently reflected how grateful I am for the Word of Wisdom. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

One morning, one of the co-workers remarked with a profane expletive for emphasis that he didn’t see how I could get going in the morning without a cup of coffee.  At that moment, I silently reflected how grateful I am for the Word if Wisdom. 

Yep. I had more than one fellow researcher ask me how on earth I completed a PhD without coffee or tea. I just shrugged and said, 'Sleep?' But really I was just feeling deeply grateful for the Word of Wisdom. I can't imagine intentionally putting myself in a position where I'm hopeless without a drug dose every morning or even several times a day ...

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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I’ve been a member for 26 years, and I sometimes miss coffee and sweet tea, but not enough to lose my temple recommend. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

can't imagine intentionally putting myself in a position where I'm hopeless without a drug dose every morning or even several times a day

It is extremely frustrating, but for me the alternative is worst.

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I have to take low dose meds daily.  I’m happy to... it’s a miracle I have such an option imo. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is extremely frustrating, but for me the alternative is worst.

 

4 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I have to take low dose meds daily.  I’m happy to... it’s a miracle I have such an option imo. 

This is completely different to choosing to use a drug and then becoming dependent upon it to function. I use a nasal steroid about 10 months/year, but I didn't choose to have chronic hay fever.

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7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

This is completely different to choosing to use a drug and then becoming dependent upon it to function. I use a nasal steroid about 10 months/year, but I didn't choose to have chronic hay fever.

Perhaps it goes without saying, but there is a distinction to be drawn between taking a beneficent medication against a condition one is beset with through no fault of his own and deliberately subjecting oneself to addictive or habit-forming substances with no other object than the pursuit of pleasure. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/8/2019 at 12:06 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

This is completely different to choosing to use a drug and then becoming dependent upon it to function. I use a nasal steroid about 10 months/year, but I didn't choose to have chronic hay fever.

I am just agreeing if there is a choice to abstain and not have a significant decrease of quality of life, it makes more sense to refrain now we know the rebound and other costs of many of these drugs..  I am chained to a drug that makes me sick daily as I wait for it to be absorbed out of need, to do that to myself to get what I thought was a jumpstart doesn't make sense to me.  I think a lot of people resort to coffee so they don't have to make the effort of intelligent sleep hygiene, nutritional choices, and exercise.  Coffee is an apparently tasty (once you get used to it or load it up with extras) shortcut to feeling good.  I can understand the desire to take shortcuts, but not if it makes me sick otherwise.

An occasional coffee if one enjoys the lift or to use it to sharpen attention for tests I can see, but making it a required drug to function...between costs and problems arising If by chance one can't get it...it just doesn't make sense to me.  There are other warming drinks that are very tasty if that is the main reason.  Warm milk with fresh ground nutmeg and cream and a touch of agave....yummm....or hot high quality apple juice or cider....

I think the studies show long term use of caffeine diminishes the positive heightened awareness side effects.

Alcohol if it is anything like narcotics....that is more understandable to me.  The euphoria, the sense of relaxation...of course, I haven't been able to relax without a drug for a decade or two and most of the time .I feel like my body is a rubberband twisted so much it is about to snap, so the feeling of relaxing is of very high value to me.  Maybe alcohol wouldn't be so appealing to me if I could feel that way naturally.  Euphoria is fun, but not a necessity.

Smoking...knowing the possibility of cancers, I really can't understand that except perhaps for those in mind numbingly boring, but stressful jobs such as wartime duties that involves a lot of waiting to be attacked.  However, boredom is a fact of life for many others in situations they feel little control over, so I am sympathetic to them.  Those who do it because they think it makes them look cool or because they can't resist the few moments of pleasure even though there are other options for pleasure and knowing possible costs down the road....not as sympathetic.

And I find celebrities who make a big deal of smoking rather disgusting given they likely know the impact of their doing so on others.

Edited by Calm

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25 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 

This is completely different to choosing to use a drug and then becoming dependent upon it to function. I use a nasal steroid about 10 months/year, but I didn't choose to have chronic hay fever.

Hay fever strikes me like clockwork every year in late August and lasts until the first frost. I take Allerclear to relieve the symptoms. Only drug I take except for an occasional dose of ibuprofen to relieve passing headache, cold or flu symptoms. 

I had surgery a few years ago for an injury from a bicycle accident. I was told to bring in any medications in advance for preparatory evaluation. I had none to show. The receiving nurse was amazed a man my age was not on any prescription medication. Until that moment, I had not realized I was that uncommon in this respect. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hay fever strikes me like clockwork every year in late August and lasts until the first frost. I take Allerclear to relieve the symptoms. Only drug I take except for an occasional dose of ibuprofen to relieve passing headache, cold or flu symptoms. 

I had surgery a few years ago for an injury from a bicycle accident. I was told to bring in any medications in advance for preparatory evaluation. I had none to show. The receiving nurse was amazed a man my age was not on any prescription medication. Until that moment, I had not realized I was that uncommon in this respect. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

You're uncommon in many respects, Sir. :D;)

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

... other costs of many of these drugs.

I'm not sure you're talking about actual financial costs, but that's another reason in itself. When I was studying in America, one of my fellow students determined that he was spending US$8,000 per annum on takeaway coffees. 'That's a secondhand car', he said; 'every year'.

We had a brother get baptised in our ward some time ago. He gave up coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco to do so, and then started paying tithing. He liked to point out that he had come out financially ahead.

One day at the shops, the credit card of the man in front of me was repeatedly rejected, so I bought his groceries for him. The cashier said that that was very generous. I challenged her assessment. I asked her how much she spent on booze on a weekend out. She said about $120. I pointed out that I'd spent less than $25 just then. 'Good point', she said.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The receiving nurse was amazed a man my age was not on any prescription medication.

I'm younger than you, but I get that too!

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1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'm not sure you're talking about actual financial costs,

Financial, time, physical, etc....costs meaning any negative impact.

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     My son is extremely wheat intolerance.  My mother cannot understand why we let him break the the word of wisdom. It talks about eating wheat.  She thinks he will be blessed if he follows it 100 percent.  I think he would be dead.  And yet she eats meat everyday. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  

I wouldn't drink alcohol because there are too many drunks in the family tree. Coffee smells weird. I would maybe go for green tea.  I like herbal teas.  I obey to keep my recommend.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I have a friend who is on the brink of leaving the church and lately has been talking about alcohol a lot. I have no doubt that when she leaves she will likely drink. This is A woman who has been a true blue black-and-white thinker her whole life, very invested in the church.It has me thinking about my values and why I choose to live them. I honestly don’t believe I would be interested in drinking alcohol if I were for some reason to leave the church. I don’t drink because I want to be clear of mind at all times to the very best of my ability And to be honest I’m proud of my sobriety. I spend much of my life around alcoholics  and drinkers and it’s just simply not a lifestyle That appeals to me in anyway. I’m very healthy in many ways, running weight lifting juicing mindfulness exercise etc.

I also believe God wants me to be clear minded. 

I admit that I only abstain from coffee because it’s a rule for the temple. I have not come to grips with a belief that God cares much about coffee but since I have committed to Him that I won’t, He expects me to have integrity so I abstain. 

How about you? 

Great post!

I have no desire to drink alcohol, smoke anything or start using any type of illegal drugs (or even marijuana unless for medical purposes possibly).  I haven't partaken of any of those all my life and don't see any reason to start now.

With my eating, I eat everything I want to eat and just use moderation.  I've weighed the same since high school and hope that stays true until I die :) 

I do all of the above, because I know I feel great when I follow that path regarding health.  

Regarding tea and coffee, I have no strong feelings about them and honestly agree with you that God most likely does not care much about them either.  I think we will see these being allowed in my life time and I already see the youth loving going to Starbucks (not all get coffee though).  I think tea is much better for a person than a diet coke or any energy drink (my opinion).....same with coffee.  But if I don't see this change, I don't really care much either way.  I don't drink them only to be obedient.

Edited by ALarson
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4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm not sure you're talking about actual financial costs, but that's another reason in itself. When I was studying in America, one of my fellow students determined that he was spending US$8,000 per annum on takeaway coffees. 'That's a secondhand car', he said; 'every year'.

We had a brother get baptised in our ward some time ago. He gave up coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco to do so, and then started paying tithing. He liked to point out that he had come out financially ahead.

One day at the shops, the credit card of the man in front of me was repeatedly rejected, so I bought his groceries for him. The cashier said that that was very generous. I challenged her assessment. I asked her how much she spent on booze on a weekend out. She said about $120. I pointed out that I'd spent less than $25 just then. 'Good point', she said.

You upbraided her after she had complimented you on your generosity, and she then said you made a good point? Sounds like a very longsuffering cashier! 

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17 hours ago, Calm said:

To begin with obedience for me was because it was counseled by God and leaders and it seemed like a good idea in general. Now obedience is because I know due to my reaction to NyQuil (worse restless legs experience of my life and I wasn’t even close to the severe and 24/7 range I have now yet) and other caffeinated products it would be very detrimental to my health plus general disgust of smoking due to seeing what it does to lungs as well as the smoke has always made me sick and even just the smell if I am pregnant or having a bad day...figure that is a good sign it isn’t healthy. 

I am grateful I grew up a member as I probably would have tried to self medicate with both coffee and alcohol before so knew what was going on (the first 40 years of my life) as I know many with my disorder do and I would likely be even worse, quite possibly dead having killed myself because of pure misery and removed inhibitions (something that is also not unknown among those who have severe symptoms).

The older I get the more I appreciate the WoW. Cardiologist says "no caffeine" - no problem! Gave up smoking 40 years ago, got that one licked, same with booze.

I just wish I had been doing it my whole life.

If anyone thinks the word of wisdom is not about health just wait till you get old.

Like me you will wish you had been doing it your whole life.

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6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You upbraided her after she had complimented you on your generosity, and she then said you made a good point? Sounds like a very longsuffering cashier! 

He's not in the US where we have been conditioned to political correctness.

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17 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Actually she is leaving because she can no longer walk the line between church and her gay family members. And I suspect she too has some sexual preference issues.  But her kids drink and I believe as she contemplated leaving the church she imagines living as her kids do, drinking being a part of that. 

 

Have to ask if that perhaps is a big reason why lots of your own are leaving.  I read that one effect of having lots of ex members/non members in SLC is more people feel comfortable leaving because they now have a community of non religious/non lds people to associate and network with.  Lets face it, when your whole family and possibly your career hinge on you belonging to some group or religion, more often than not you have a huge motivation to tow the party line and comply.  One takeaway I had when I spent time among the Christians here is that they really aren't exactly the most open minded and tolerant.  Considering how things are going I do have to wonder if besides your own if people from the other varients of Christianity are now starting to think that the costs and liabilities of being a member of the religion just aren't worth it anymore.

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What motivates me to live the WOW?   When I was a little kid, my mom put out her cigarette butts in her morning coffee cup after it got cold.   I was in charge of dishes, and the smell of damp cigarettes and cold coffee haunts me to this day.  I also married a recovering alcoholic, who even though has been 25 years sober, still bears some scars and quirks from back in the day.   One BIL may be dead soon in his '40's, having destroyed his health with drugs in his teen years.  Another BIL destroyed his family life as he chose drugs alcohol over being a husband and father.  

Honestly, the whole thing has never been that much of an issue for me.   I'm bright enough to know that not everyone has such clarity over why the WoW is indeed wise, but dang, you don't have to be that smart to see why I've never struggled.

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16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You upbraided her after she had complimented you on your generosity, and she then said you made a good point? Sounds like a very longsuffering cashier! 

Yeah, she probably said “good point” to get them to go away. I know when I give a compliment I am annoyed when someone downplays it. I imagine I would be even more annoyed if they took it as an opportunity to make their action look insignificant by comparing it to my actions to make me look worse.

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

He's not in the US where we have been conditioned to political correctness.

Not being insulting to a service person who is required to be polite and put up with you is not political correctness. It is basic decency.

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10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Hay fever strikes me like clockwork every year in late August and lasts until the first frost. I take Allerclear to relieve the symptoms. Only drug I take except for an occasional dose of ibuprofen to relieve passing headache, cold or flu symptoms. 

I had surgery a few years ago for an injury from a bicycle accident. I was told to bring in any medications in advance for preparatory evaluation. I had none to show. The receiving nurse was amazed a man my age was not on any prescription medication. Until that moment, I had not realized I was that uncommon in this respect. 

I am on two prescription meds at 40. I am a little nervous where I will be at 60. There is a possibility I can get rid of one of them at some point (but I am not sure if I am mentally strong enough to maintain happiness without it) but the other is lifelong unless medicine takes some huge leaps.

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16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The older I get the more I appreciate the WoW. Cardiologist says "no caffeine" - no problem! Gave up smoking 40 years ago, got that one licked, same with booze.

I just wish I had been doing it my whole life.

If anyone thinks the word of wisdom is not about health just wait till you get old.

Like me you will wish you had been doing it your whole life.

I worry a bit about youth and even older folks who are so habituated to “energy drinks” and colas. Yes, I’m well aware that the Church doesn’t forbid their use. The Church used to discourage consumption of sodas with caffeine, however. I think the leaders stopped doing that because they got so much pushback from the rank and file. More’s the pity, in my view. 

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