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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Calm said:

Increase in human trafficking...

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/01/1029912

I read the article but it doesn't really have any data.  It just says it is on the rise and an increase in children of 30% but not any information of what that even means in numbers.  One more child?10 more children?  100 more children?  Doesn't really say.

What I find interesting about this thread is that it seems mostly active members are reporting the most doom and gloom about the world we live in.  Is this a common feeling amongst Church members?  Is there a large number of members who feel we are living in the worst of times in the history of the world?  I wish there was a pole on this to see how wide spread this attitude is among members.

 

Edit: I did find this poll.  It reports 20% Republicans think the world will end with the coming of Christ.  Since the majority of Church members are Republican, maybe that is a hint at least.  And of course you have to believe the world is getting worse if you believe Christ is about to return.  

Edited by california boy

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Posted (edited)

I think there are many positives and many negatives.  My guess is that the attitudes of humanity are likely the same as they always have been, there are good and bad people in all generations.  Expressions may change, motivations likely stay the same....charity vs selfishness.  In some ways modern cultures likely make it easier to be good  (better opportunities to use healthy as well as aware of others one can easily help).  OTOH, technology has expanded the reach of evil as well as good (selling abusive porn, dangerous drugs and guns and even people online makes it easier to find both customers and dealers).

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And do you go out on ministering visits to ask why they left? Or get reports from those who did? Are you talking about all those who are leaving or just those you know? Do they talk about these concerns to you? I am genuinely curious. 

Yes (to both of your first questions).

I stated in my post that it was with those I'd experienced this with in my ward and stake (I also have had family members and friends leave the church as well over these issues).

Yes, I've talked to many of them about their concerns and tried to help them through it and remain active.  Some have been able to do this (I'm one of those too), but not all and it's sad to see them leave.  However, they did not leave so they could go live an immoral life and I really dislike the "they left to sin" accusation.

Edited by ALarson
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15 hours ago, Calm said:

Which could be at times a sin of pride, believing they know better than others and judging them inappropriately.

Maybe you've experienced this, but I have not....it's been quite the opposite actually with those I've known.  Most are broken and humble....come in with doubts and questions wanting help and understanding.  None of them have come in acting like they "know better than others" or "judging them inappropriately".  They feel hurt and deceived and just want help (in my experience).  They wonder why the true narratives were not taught in place of the ones that were inaccurate and yes, they look to the leaders.  I don't see that as being prideful.

Of course, almost all of them also realize that they could have dug deeper into church history themselves and I do feel that many take responsibility for at least some of the reason for not knowing about the troubling issues.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, ALarson said:

come in with doubts and questions wanting help and understanding.

I would assume that most willing to come into speak to a church leader or sincerely share concerns with anyone are likely more humble.  Unfortunately I have come across some who act thrilled they have found something wrong with the Church and who ignore any attempt to correct misinterpretations or ignorance, which all of them had imo (imbalanced view, heavily weighting negatives while dismissing positives as irrelevant in some cases).  They tended to be arrogant before they lost faith for those I knew, so they pretty much just switched directions of their scorn for others.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I would assume that most willing to come into speak to a church leader are likely more humble.  Unfortunately I have come across some who act thrilled they have found something wrong with the Church and who ignore any attempt to correct misinterpretations or ignorance, which all of them had.  They tended to be arrogant before they lost faith for those I knew, so they pretty much just switched directions of their scorn for others.

That may be true of those who were already loosing faith in the leaders or had struggled to hold on for awhile....I can understand maybe why some might have that "Ah ha!" attitude at that point (like they'd found more evidence against the leaders being accurate with their narratives, etc.).  I see that attitude mainly with those who are already out of the church.  

But I was speaking of those who just began learning about difficult issues and who really came in seeking answers and help.  I've worked with many ward members at that stage and so has my Bishop.  They are very humble and some are very broken and hurt.  Those are much more common to see than anyone beginning their exit from the church because they wanted to start living an immoral life (something I've not personally seen happen).  That was what I was responding to (just to clarify).

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Posted (edited)

Regarding the various comments about whether the world is getting better or worse, I highly recommend the book Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steve Pinker. With wide open eyes, he looks at the state of the world from history. He argues,

"Life before the Enlightenment was darkened by starvation, plagues, superstitions, maternal and infant mortality, marauding knight-warlords, sadistic torture-executions, slavery, witch hunts, and genocidal crusades, conquests, and wars of religion. Good riddance. The arcs in figures 5-1 through 18-4 show that as ingenuity and sympathy have been applied to the human condition, life has gotten longer, healthier, richer, safer, happier, freer, smarter, deeper, and more interesting. Problems remain, but problems are inevitable."

Pinker, Steven. Enlightenment Now (p. 364). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was in Manchester when they won the treble cup in 1999 and follow the World Cup today as a casual fan.

More people heard speeches by Hitler then watched that video. I am not sure that means much but you seem to think quantity is important.

Wait 50 yrs, we will see what makes the list of turning points in history, and who is remembered for standing up for what...

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On 7/7/2019 at 2:20 AM, The Nehor said:

Since you have done the same thing arguing the weakness of the church’s position whether we are growing fast or slow you would have experience in how convenient this kind of argumentation is.

As an active LDS and a missionary when the church was growing rapidly we always used that data as a sign of truth. As for slow growth yes I have argued that people who have access to the full information and picture are less likely to join and many are leaving because of that very thing.

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On 7/7/2019 at 2:21 AM, The Nehor said:

I have seen no evidence of a groundswell rise in critical thinking in my lifetime. I have seen a groundswell of immorality so I suspect that is a more likely cause.

Yes I an not surprised you have not seen a "groundswell" in critical thinking and you likely disparage anyone who leaves as doing so because of immorality.  That is rather typical and helps avoid cognitive dissonance.

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

I read the article but it doesn't really have any data.  It just says it is on the rise and an increase in children of 30% but not any information of what that even means in numbers.  One more child?10 more children?  100 more children?  Doesn't really say.

What I find interesting about this thread is that it seems mostly active members are reporting the most doom and gloom about the world we live in.  Is this a common feeling amongst Church members?  Is there a large number of members who feel we are living in the worst of times in the history of the world?  I wish there was a pole on this to see how wide spread this attitude is among members.

 

Edit: I did find this poll.  It reports 20% Republicans think the world will end with the coming of Christ.  Since the majority of Church members are Republican, maybe that is a hint at least.  And of course you have to believe the world is getting worse if you believe Christ is about to return.  

I joke sometimes that the end is nigh but my belief we are in for rough times in the next few decades is not entirely based on religious convictions and I have no idea if Christ’s coming is imminent.

i see the international order that has kept the peace between major world and regional powers since the end of the Second World War collapsing. I suspect based just on my knowledge of economics that the EU is unsustainable in the long run. The wealth gap in the United States alone is terrifying and I wish we would shout President Young’s warning about that to the rooftops. The US customs and mores that kept the political system running are being undermined while loyalty to party is surpassing loyalty to nation. We are slowly undoing or bypassing everything put in place to keep 2008 from happening again. China and Russia are taking some dangerous political turns. They have always been corrupt since Stalin and Mao but they are exporting it and are growing in boldness.Pakistan and India’s long standoff is getting more tenuous. The internet has allowed uncivility to find an outlet and it is bleeding over badly. Pornography is deadening many people to higher emotions.

If this is not the end of days I still think we have some rough days ahead.

1 hour ago, Bede said:

I wish I believed that but I do not see the reduction in violence as human moral improvement. The world has been in a state where the doctrine of MAD kept the peace for decades. I would argue that fear, not love, caused this change. While the United States (and much of Europe) likes to imagine discrimination along tribal lines are decreasing I am not convinced. I think we are just shifting the tribes. Hatred over political views is no less toxic then hating someone for their skin’s melanin content, who they want to have sex with, or their country of origin. I also think we are too self-congratulatory. In developed nations the tolerance is held up by the lack of a threat. We condescendingly judge African nations for being racist but they are dealing with neighboring tribes who might actually come rape or kill them. Tolerance is a wonderful thing but it is a cheap virtue when you do not feel threatened by the other you are tolerating.

1 hour ago, changed said:

Wait 50 yrs, we will see what makes the list of turning points in history, and who is remembered for standing up for what...

History tends to cycle between epochs of society tightening things up and getting looser in what we permit. Right now we are mostly in a loosening phase in the United States. In the last century we had a loosening in the 20s which was crushed by the tightening of the depression, the Second World War, and the Cold War. The hippies loosened it all up again. The 80s saw a tightening up and then we have been loosening ever since. We are due a backlash so I am not sure the causes of today will be remembered fondly by our descendants.

The next big social shifts and crusades are unlikely to be a continuation of what is going on now. It will be something that would offend almost everyone now. Gay rights came out of nowhere and a generation before the support against it was overwhelming. Same with the civil rights movement. The ideals of real democracy were rare until the United States jumped on it. It was seen as an eccentric fad until France fell to a populist movement and removed their aristocracy. Napoleon spent the following years trying to defend it and keep it alive and now it has swept all of Europe and almost every nation on Earth is a democracy at least in name. The next plot twist will bowl us over.

I can come up with all kinds of weird scenarios. Pederasty becomes acceptable with all kinds of social and legal safeguards. Marriage is redefined as a contract of specific length with an end date and the option to renew. Monogamous marriage is viewed as odd as larger group marriages become more normal. Socialism or trade syndicalism sweep the world in response to automation. Climate change starts a collapse in centralized authority and local governments/nations become the norm. Climate change hits hard but is mitigated by new technology and a global authority is established with vast coercive powers to control anything that could threaten climate change is established. Eugenics comes back with its racial overtones gone. Our current technology is replaced by more capable organic technology capable of lasting longer and self-repair and we start growing building and vehicles. We “cure” the aging process and have to deal with a desperate need for population control. Cybernetics and genetic modification for adapting to various jobs becomes normal followed by changes for aesthetics and entertainment. Development of didactic imprints ends public education. The discovery of a way to create and control antimatter ends energy shortages forever and allows the creation of space warping engines and we spread to the stars. Asteroids are redirected to orbit Earth and we begin space mining and as they are hollowed they become homes for those working there to exploit the advantages of zero g manufacturing. We fall into a corporate dystopia as megacorps grow more powerful then governments and their competition defines world politics. We find a way to make animals sentient and have to deal with all the repercussions and conflicts this spawns. A backlash against generalized “rights to deviancy” leads to the end of the growing of lgbt rights and all other forms of dissent from society’s norms. Religion is found to be a menace and actively persecuted. Chattel slavery is reintroduced for criminals or allowed as a free will decision under a libertarian order. Reproduction is accomplished through transferring the fetus to an artificial womb (that you keep at home?) shortly after pregnancy. Neural nanotech allows us to interface directly with machines and even each other. Gender transition is developed that makes it the norm and most people cycle every few years and those who do not are seen as unbalanced. The creation of disposable transferable bodies (organic or mechanical) that can be controlled remotely leads to very odd sports such as live fire war re-enactments, reality blood sports like something out of Hunger games, and extremely risky athletics that would sicken most of us today.

Do what you think is right but do not do it with the expectation that people will look back and praise your views or that current social and political victories are molding the future forever. Cherish the small victories of helping individuals over more transient causes. It is common generational arrogance to imagine that the causes of today will all be smiled on in the future. Almost every generation thinks that and they are almost all wrong.

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54 minutes ago, Teancum said:

As an active LDS and a missionary when the church was growing rapidly we always used that data as a sign of truth. As for slow growth yes I have argued that people who have access to the full information and picture are less likely to join and many are leaving because of that very thing.

Many took it as something to be excited about but to treat growth as a sign of truthfulness or its absence as a sign of untruthfulness was silly then and is silly now. Put away childish things. People have always joined and have always left. Some were arrogant about their reasons for doing so. It is unsurprising this generation would pick intellectual elitism as their reason since that is A popular secular virtue of the day. In the 1800s it was more popular to talk about how vile the members were for their polygamy back when secular rightness was the virtue of the day.

51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yes I an not surprised you have not seen a "groundswell" in critical thinking and you likely disparage anyone who leaves as doing so because of immorality.  That is rather typical and helps avoid cognitive dissonance.

Case in point. You even claim to be able to read how mentally conflicted I am.

Allow me to confess that my cognitive dissonance is not over my intellectual acceptance of the gospel. I am convinced it is true via some amazing and unusual spiritual experiences. My cognitive dissonance is there are things I want to do that I should not do and things I do not want to do that I should do. So if I leave I will leave because I want to sin. I actually think more highly of those who leave because they do not want to keep the commandments over those who leave over seerstones in hats, Meadow Mountain, disagreeing with an apostle, or the defunct Priesthood Ban. You are asking me to think less of those who leave when you convince me it was about bits of history.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Allow me to confess that my cognitive dissonance is not over my intellectual acceptance of the gospel. I am convinced it is true via some amazing and unusual spiritual experiences. My cognitive dissonance is there are things I want to do that I should not do and things I do not want to do that I should do. So if I leave I will leave because I want to sin.

That's interesting to read (and thanks for your honesty....I enjoy reading your comments).

But maybe then, you are projecting when you apply this reason to why you think others have left?  I actually think that's a natural thing for us to do.

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I actually think more highly of those who leave because they do not want to keep the commandments over those who leave over seerstones in hats, Meadow Mountain, disagreeing with an apostle, or the defunct Priesthood Ban. You are asking me to think less of those who leave when you convince me it was about bits of history.

They are not leaving over those items you listed, IMO.  They are leaving because they have lost their trust or faith in our church leaders.  They feel (and rightly so, IMO) that some of the leaders who knew the true narratives long ago allowed the innacurate ones to continue being taught.  I'm hopeful this will happen less and less now with some of our current leaders stepping up and making attempts to correct this.  But it may take a few years to ebb the flow of those leaving over this.

Edited by ALarson
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30 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I joke sometimes that the end is nigh but my belief we are in for rough times in the next few decades is not entirely based on religious convictions and I have no idea if Christ’s coming is imminent.

i see the international order that has kept the peace between major world and regional powers since the end of the Second World War collapsing. I suspect based just on my knowledge of economics that the EU is unsustainable in the long run. The wealth gap in the United States alone is terrifying and I wish we would shout President Young’s warning about that to the rooftops. The US customs and mores that kept the political system running are being undermined while loyalty to party is surpassing loyalty to nation. We are slowly undoing or bypassing everything put in place to keep 2008 from happening again. China and Russia are taking some dangerous political turns. They have always been corrupt since Stalin and Mao but they are exporting it and are growing in boldness.Pakistan and India’s long standoff is getting more tenuous. The internet has allowed uncivility to find an outlet and it is bleeding over badly. Pornography is deadening many people to higher emotions.

If this is not the end of days I still think we have some rough days ahead.

I wish I believed that but I do not see the reduction in violence as human moral improvement. The world has been in a state where the doctrine of MAD kept the peace for decades. I would argue that fear, not love, caused this change. While the United States (and much of Europe) likes to imagine discrimination along tribal lines are decreasing I am not convinced. I think we are just shifting the tribes. Hatred over political views is no less toxic then hating someone for their skin’s melanin content, who they want to have sex with, or their country of origin. I also think we are too self-congratulatory. In developed nations the tolerance is held up by the lack of a threat. We condescendingly judge African nations for being racist but they are dealing with neighboring tribes who might actually come rape or kill them. Tolerance is a wonderful thing but it is a cheap virtue when you do not feel threatened by the other you are tolerating.

History tends to cycle between epochs of society tightening things up and getting looser in what we permit. Right now we are mostly in a loosening phase in the United States. In the last century we had a loosening in the 20s which was crushed by the tightening of the depression, the Second World War, and the Cold War. The hippies loosened it all up again. The 80s saw a tightening up and then we have been loosening ever since. We are due a backlash so I am not sure the causes of today will be remembered fondly by our descendants.

The next big social shifts and crusades are unlikely to be a continuation of what is going on now. It will be something that would offend almost everyone now. Gay rights came out of nowhere and a generation before the support against it was overwhelming. Same with the civil rights movement. The ideals of real democracy were rare until the United States jumped on it. It was seen as an eccentric fad until France fell to a populist movement and removed their aristocracy. Napoleon spent the following years trying to defend it and keep it alive and now it has swept all of Europe and almost every nation on Earth is a democracy at least in name. The next plot twist will bowl us over.

I can come up with all kinds of weird scenarios. Pederasty becomes acceptable with all kinds of social and legal safeguards. Marriage is redefined as a contract of specific length with an end date and the option to renew. Monogamous marriage is viewed as odd as larger group marriages become more normal. Socialism or trade syndicalism sweep the world in response to automation. Climate change starts a collapse in centralized authority and local governments/nations become the norm. Climate change hits hard but is mitigated by new technology and a global authority is established with vast coercive powers to control anything that could threaten climate change is established. Eugenics comes back with its racial overtones gone. Our current technology is replaced by more capable organic technology capable of lasting longer and self-repair and we start growing building and vehicles. We “cure” the aging process and have to deal with a desperate need for population control. Cybernetics and genetic modification for adapting to various jobs becomes normal followed by changes for aesthetics and entertainment. Development of didactic imprints ends public education. The discovery of a way to create and control antimatter ends energy shortages forever and allows the creation of space warping engines and we spread to the stars. Asteroids are redirected to orbit Earth and we begin space mining and as they are hollowed they become homes for those working there to exploit the advantages of zero g manufacturing. We fall into a corporate dystopia as megacorps grow more powerful then governments and their competition defines world politics. We find a way to make animals sentient and have to deal with all the repercussions and conflicts this spawns. A backlash against generalized “rights to deviancy” leads to the end of the growing of lgbt rights and all other forms of dissent from society’s norms. Religion is found to be a menace and actively persecuted. Chattel slavery is reintroduced for criminals or allowed as a free will decision under a libertarian order. Reproduction is accomplished through transferring the fetus to an artificial womb (that you keep at home?) shortly after pregnancy. Neural nanotech allows us to interface directly with machines and even each other. Gender transition is developed that makes it the norm and most people cycle every few years and those who do not are seen as unbalanced. The creation of disposable transferable bodies (organic or mechanical) that can be controlled remotely leads to very odd sports such as live fire war re-enactments, reality blood sports like something out of Hunger games, and extremely risky athletics that would sicken most of us today.

Do what you think is right but do not do it with the expectation that people will look back and praise your views or that current social and political victories are molding the future forever. Cherish the small victories of helping individuals over more transient causes. It is common generational arrogance to imagine that the causes of today will all be smiled on in the future. Almost every generation thinks that and they are almost all wrong.

Yikes, how can you even sleep at night with all this going in your head.  I found it incredibly fascinating and I can see signs of much of what you write about.  You should archive this.  Maybe you will be the next Nostradamus.  I read this article in The Atlantic.  It is a bit political, but I wonder what the impact will be on religion as the Evangelic continue down this road.  Doesn't look good to me and I can see that religion might very well be setting itself up for increased public ridicule.  Wonder what you think of it in general without getting political.

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

I think there are many positives and many negatives.  My guess is that the attitudes of humanity are likely the same as they always have been, there are good and bad people in all generations.  Expressions may change, motivations likely stay the same....charity vs selfishness.  In some ways modern cultures likely make it easier to be good  (better opportunities to use healthy as well as aware of others one can easily help).  OTOH, technology has expanded the reach of evil as well as good (selling abusive porn, dangerous drugs and guns and even people online makes it easier to find both customers and dealers).

I think I am more in line with this kind of thinking.  I honestly don't see anything alarming going on that would cause Christ to intervene and wrap it all up.  Are there problems?  Yeah of course.  But isn't that always a part of the human condition.

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11 minutes ago, ALarson said:

That's interesting to read (and thanks for your honesty....I enjoy reading your comments).

But maybe then, you are projecting when you apply this reason to others why you think others have left?  I actually think that's a natural thing for us to do.

They are not leaving over those items you listed, IMO.  They are leaving because they have lost their trust or faith in our church leaders.  They feel (and rightly so, IMO) that some of the leaders who knew the true narratives long ago allowed the innacurate ones to continue being taught.  I'm hopeful this will happen less and less now with some of our current leaders stepping up and making attempts to correct this.  But it may take a few years to ebb the flow of those leaving over this.

I do not think I am projecting. Admittedly that is exactly what someone projecting would say.

I think the conclusion that past leaders were deceptive is mostly unfair. The apostles in the 1900s were not all church history scholars. There is an argument to be made that the average church member was more likely to know more because they would had more time to read up on it. Yeah, they had more access to church archives but when did they have time to dig through them? I think if you asked the apostles in the 60s or 70s about a lot of the things that were left out many of them many would not have known of them. They did not have time to read historical artifacts and old books to read up on it and there was no way to run a Google search (we are so spoiled). Their impetus and mandate is on doctrine and teaching it. I do not believe they intended to deceive.

I also find it hard to believe that someone with a burning testimony who have revelation guiding them to be disaffected based on apostles not sharing everything even if they did know it. You just forgive them and move on. I have never seen someone leaving the church over something so purely rational so I doubt it happens much.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I do not think I am projecting. Admittedly that is exactly what someone projecting would say.

😂 True....

17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think the conclusion that past leaders were deceptive is mostly unfair. The apostles in the 1900s were not all church history scholars. There is an argument to be made that the average church member was more likely to know more because they would had more time to read up on it. Yeah, they had more access to church archives but when did they have time to dig through them? I think if you asked the apostles in the 60s or 70s about a lot of the things that were left out many of them many would not have known of them. They did not have time to read historical artifacts and old books to read up on it and there was no way to run a Google search (we are so spoiled). Their impetus and mandate is on doctrine and teaching it. I do not believe they intended to deceive.

I agree with some of what you state above.  It's not a black or white topic (ie. that they all intentionally lied or that none of them knew the true history).

I tend to believe that some of the new (inaccurate narratives) even began while some were still alive who had lived and witnessed these church history events.   And then those narratives were believed and repeated by well intentioned church leaders who were unaware that they were not accurate.  When the true narratives started to surface and get published (with writings of some of the church's most trusted historians), they at first tried to silence these voices (IMO) and I understand they were in a difficult position.  That worked for awhile, but with the information so readily available on the internet now, the leaders have had to try and get ahead of this problem and the result is seeing the essays and the more accurate narratives now being included in more and more written materials published by the church.

But, IMO, there is absolutely no doubt that at least some of the leaders were aware of these difficult church history issues years before they finally acknowledged that they were true and are not anti-Mormon lies, and they are indeed more accurate narratives than what has been published and repeated and taught in the past.  

The result of this is that some member's trust and faith is going to be shaken and for some it's going to be destroyed.  Each react differently when they learn about the difficult issues.  Combine it with the current issues regarding gays and SSM, etc. and many just do not believe the church is the one true church anymore.  Some do continue with a faith in God and in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

These are just my thoughts and opinions on this topic.  It's a complicated issue....but it's obvious to me that the leaders believe it is an issue and they are attempting to help members and hopefully avoid some of the results of past actions now.

Edited by ALarson
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48 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yikes, how can you even sleep at night with all this going in your head.  I found it incredibly fascinating and I can see signs of much of what you write about.  You should archive this.  Maybe you will be the next Nostradamus.  I read this article in The Atlantic.  It is a bit political, but I wonder what the impact will be on religion as the Evangelic continue down this road.  Doesn't look good to me and I can see that religion might very well be setting itself up for increased public ridicule.  Wonder what you think of it in general without getting political.

I read that article and was disgusted.

“There has never been anyone who has defended us and who has fought for us, who we have loved more than Donald J. Trump. No one!”

Really? What the hell? No one you love more? Not Jesus? Not God. Not the original apostles who bequeathed you the gospel? It is sick. It smacks of Cold War thinking at its worst: We will support you and ignore all your human right violations and your tyrannic abuses as long as you side with us against the Soviets.

The Christian’s true love is a blatantly proud serial adulterer, believes asking forgiveness is a sign of weakness, bears false witness daily against others, represents Babylon in Revelation, has spent his whole life in the unrepentant pursuit of mammon and the praise of the world, has no history of charity to wholesome causes (though he has pretended a bit here), cheats business partners and uses the threat of law to unjustly deny others their due, and has no history of devotion to God or the principles Jesus espoused and his present platitudes about God are just propaganda. It is hard to come up with more of an antithesis to Christianity. What happened? Are you all that susceptible to flattery that Trump gushing devotion to you won you over? There are actual religious leaders claiming God and the courts of heaven love and support him completely. It is sickening idolatry that strips their ability to ever condemn sin again. I do not blame this entirely on this one example either. This has been a long time coming. Affiliation with party over principle has corrupted a lot of religious leaders and politicians and you can find examples on all stages of the political spectrum. Even though it is happening on multiple sides though I refuse to pretend they are equivalent in their level of wickedness. This is the kind of wicked you walk away from and do not turn back for fear of being transmuted into sodium chloride.

I hope this signals the death of these branches of and they are bound into bundles and promptly burned. They have become Nehor’s dream institutions he only wished he could have built and their destruction would be a boon to the world and the removal of a stumbling block to the mission of the more sincere Christians actually trying to teach others to follow the Savior.

Edit: I actually tried to avoid getting political and focused it on one person and his unholy alliance with parts of professed Christians. Blows my mind that some people want to claim LDS are not Christian but have no problem accepting these yahoos.

Edited by The Nehor

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8 minutes ago, ALarson said:

😂 True....

I agree with some of what you state above.  It's not a black or white topic (ie. that they all intentionally lied or that none of them knew the true history).

I tend to believe that some of the new (inaccurate narratives) even began while some were still alive who had lived and witnessed these church history events.   And then those narratives were believed and repeated by well intentioned church leaders who were unaware that they were not accurate.  When the true narratives started to surface and get published (with writings of some of the church's most trusted historians), they at first tried to silence these voices (IMO) and I understand they were in a difficult position.  That worked for awhile, but with the information so readily available on the internet now, the leaders have had to try and get ahead of this problem and the result is seeing the essays and the more accurate narratives now being included in more and more written materials published by the church.

But, IMO, there is absolutely no doubt that at least some of the leaders were aware of these difficult church history issues years before they finally acknowledged these are not anti-Mormon lies, but are indeed more accurate narratives than what has been published and repeated and taught in the past.  

The result of this is that some member's trust and faith is going to be shaken and for some it's going to be destroyed.  Each react differently when they about the difficult issues.  Combine it with the current issues regarding gays and SSM, etc. and many just do not believe the church is the one true church anymore.  Some continue with a faith in God and in the gospel of Jesus Christ.  

These are just my thoughts and opinions on this topic.  It's a complicated issue....but it's obvious to me that the leaders believe it is an issue and they are attempting to help and fix it now.

Part of the lack of trust is that many still remember when these true narratives were branded as lies and just anti-Mormon propaganda.  When the anti-Mormon propaganda ends being true and what the church leaders were telling members the false narrative, that becomes a huge issue.  Anti-Mormon propaganda starts to have more credibility than church leaders.  If you feel like you can't look to Church leaders to find the truth, they you start to wonder what kind of religion this is.  

I had my own issues with Church leaders claiming what they told me came from God. When that turned out to not be true, the whole belief that the church was the church of Christ guided by Him all fell apart.  Maybe that was unfair.  But this was the most important decision of my life, and the Church failed me.  All of the exposing of false narratives. policy changes, political activism, have only served to strengthen that belief.  Do I still think church leaders are good men?  Yes.  Do I think they are trying to do the will of God?  I think they think they are, but I don't think they are getting any special communication with God.  

Maybe I am projecting as well.  I fully admit I have my own issues.  But I think this is closer to the feeling that many are experiencing.  If the church isn't what it claims to be, then the decision to stay ends up being a more social choice rather than a spiritual one.  And when one starts having spiritual experiences outside of church membership, then you pretty much loose the last religious belief for staying.  After saying all of that, the social reason for staying may be enough for many to want to stay.  And frankly as good of reason as any other church provides.  

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14 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I read that article and was disgusted.

“There has never been anyone who has defended us and who has fought for us, who we have loved more than Donald J. Trump. No one!”

Really? What the hell? No one you love more? Not Jesus? Not God. Not the original apostles who bequeathed you the gospel? It is sick. It smacks of Cold War thinking at its worst: We will support you and ignore all your human right violations and your tyrannic abuses as long as you side with us against the Soviets.

The Christian’s true love is a blatantly proud serial adulterer, believes asking forgiveness is a sign of weakness, bears false witness daily against others, represents Babylon in Revelation, has spent his whole life in the unrepentant pursuit of mammon and the praise of the world, has no history of charity to wholesome causes (though he has pretended a bit here), cheats business partners and uses the threat of law to unjustly deny others their due, and has no history of devotion to God or the principles Jesus espoused and his present platitudes about God are just propaganda. It is hard to come up with more of an antithesis to Christianity. What happened? Are you all that susceptible to flattery that Trump gushing devotion to you won you over? There are actual religious leaders claiming God and the courts of heaven love and support him completely. It is sickening idolatry that strips their ability to ever condemn sin again. I do not blame this entirely on this one example either. This has been a long time coming. Affiliation with party over principle has corrupted a lot of religious leaders and politicians and you can find examples on all stages of the political spectrum. Even though it is happening on multiple sides though I refuse to pretend they are equivalent in their level of wickedness. This is the kind of wicked you walk away from and do not turn back for fear of being transmuted into sodium chloride.

I hope this signals the death of these branches of and they are bound into bundles and promptly burned. They have become Nehor’s dream institutions he only wished he could have built and their destruction would be a boon to the world and the removal of a stumbling block to the mission of the more sincere Christians actually trying to teach others to follow the Savior.

Edit: I actually tried to avoid getting political and focused it on one person and his unholy alliance with parts of professed Christians. Blows my mind that some people want to claim LDS are not Christian but have no problem accepting these yahoos.

Yeah I hear what you are saying, and I am going to try and stay out of the politics of the whole thing.  Do you think this is having a direct affect on the next generation in how they view Christianity?  What do you think the religious implications are if any?

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

Yeah I hear what you are saying, and I am going to try and stay out of the politics of the whole thing.  Do you think this is having a direct affect on the next generation in how they view Christianity?  What do you think the religious implications are if any?

Yes, the hypocrisy will make it harder for others to accept Christianity. I hope it will be limited to just those portions of Christianity but I doubt it. When the Boomer generation starts to lose power I expect major political swings in both parties and Christianity to be edged out from both parties as a political force. I am not sure who will come out on top but the continuing erosion of civility in politics and the expectation that participants will stick to strong customs of decorum this situation is accelerating will mean that if we get another tyrant willing to break all custom and law, a more popular one with a real lust for power and change (our current one is more milquetoast and is more interested in gratifying his own vanity), the missing safeguards could spell the end of the American Experiment. At that point it will not matter much which ideals that tyrant espouses.

Religiously it will have social effects. I expect these days will be used in the future to show how Christianity failed. A sense of shame about faith in general could develop. More optimistically maybe this will serve as a cautionary tale, a warning that victory over abortion and gay marriage were not worth sacrificing virtue and endorsing sin to achieve. Some people make out the LDS effort in California as the worst thing done but current events show otherwise. We participated and fought and eventually lost and took our loss graciously for the most part and did not play dirty politics, try to cheat, or endorse horrible sinners as God’s Chosen to seek victory at any cost.

Edited by The Nehor
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I would add that there is another reason Christianity may find itself ignored as a political force. Stuff like this which I am crossposting from the Social Hall:

Quote

“On Thursday, the official Twitter account for Netflix U.K. and Ireland responded to a Guardian article about the Return to Order, “a special campaign” of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property, which has launched the “Tell Netflix: Cancel Blasphemous ‘Good Omens’ Series” petition.

“ok we promise not to make any more,” the streaming service — you know, the one that doesn’t stream the show — tweeted.

Neil Gaiman, the creator of the series and co-author of the book that it’s based on, quote-tweeted Netflix’s response, calling it the “best reply ever.” 

On Wednesday, Gaiman shared that same article about the petition — which had garnered more than 20,000 signatures as of Thursday morning — tweeting, “I love that they are going to write to Netflix to try and get #GoodOmenscancelled. Says it all really.”

By the way, Prime Video tweeted it will cancel “Stranger Things” if Netflix cancels “Good Omens,” so now they might need to uphold that deal.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewrap.com/netflix-wont-make-more-good-omens-christian-petition-amazon-prime-video-neil-gaiman/amp/

 

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, the hypocrisy will make it harder for others to accept Christianity. I hope it will be limited to just those portions of Christianity but I doubt it. When the Boomer generation starts to lose power I expect major political swings in both parties and Christianity to be edged out from both parties as a political force. I am not sure who will come out on top but the continuing erosion of civility in politics and the expectation that participants will stick to strong customs of decorum this is accelerating will mean that if we get another tyrant willing to break all custom and law to promote, a more popular one with a real lust for power and change (our current one is more milquetoast and is more interested in gratifying his own vanity), it could spell the end of the American Experiment. At that point it will not matter much which ideals that tyrant espouses.

Religiously it will have social effects. I expect these days will be used in the future to show how Christianity failed. A sense of shame about faith in general could develop. More optimistically maybe this will serve as a cautionary tale, a warning that victory over abortion and gay marriage were not worth sacrificing virtue and endorsing sin to achieve. Some people make out the LDS effort in California as the worst thing done but current events show otherwise. We participated and fought and eventually lost and took our loss graciously for the most part and did not play dirty politics, try to cheat, or endorse horrible sinners as God’s Chosen to seek victory at any cost.

Sometimes you give the most insightful posts. Thanks for this.

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3 hours ago, ALarson said:

They are not leaving over those items you listed, IMO.  They are leaving because they have lost their trust or faith in our church leaders.  They feel (and rightly so, IMO) that some of the leaders who knew the true narratives long ago allowed the innacurate ones to continue being taught.  I'm hopeful this will happen less and less now with some of our current leaders stepping up and making attempts to correct this.  But it may take a few years to ebb the flow of those leaving over this.

IMO the issues are much deeper than a loss of trust in the church leaders. The issues are with the foundational events and doctrines. Even if the current leaders get out in front of the flow of information, they can't change what happened from 1820 to 1844.

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