LDS Membership Numbers

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Well, my experience with most of those who are currently leaving, has been that it's been over issues regarding church history (polygamy, BofA, Book of Mormon translation, and so on...) which has caused a complete loss of faith in their leaders.  I personally have seen no one in our ward who was formerly active and faithful, leave to sin or because they have a desire to live an immoral life.

And do you go out on ministering visits to ask why they left? Or get reports from those who did? Are you talking about all those who are leaving or just those you know? Do they talk about these concerns to you? I am genuinely curious. 

[JulieM]

31 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And do you go out on ministering visits to ask why they left? Or get reports from those who did? Are you talking about all those who are leaving or just those you know? Do they talk about these concerns to you? I am genuinely curious. 

Isn’t he in the Bishopric still?  If so, I’d think he’s in a position to know and he’s also posted about some members coming in with questions.   

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Isn’t he in the Bishopric still?  If so, I’d think he’s in a position to know and he’s also posted about some members coming in with questions.   

No idea. It is why I asked. Maybe it is an area thing. I have almost never seen where I am.

[changed]

23 hours ago, Teancum said:

Or it might be that people are using critical thinking and also checking into all that is available about the questionable truth claims and history of the LDS Church.  I think this is more likely.

 

Yes - I guess you can believe in a small god who only saves a small little privileged group.... or you can believe in a big God who saves all mankind...  the majority of the people will not be led astray, and if you look at the majority of the people in this world - well - the important part is everyone is learning how to be more inclusive, how to be more loving and understanding.  The information age has brought so many lessons, bringing people together like never before - some view this as an era of enlightenment - more people can read and write, fewer people in the world are starving to death, "by the people, for the people" - individuals have been given a platform and voice like never before, tearing down unjust rulers, giving power to unite and increase understanding as never before.  

You either jump on that beautiful big band wagon - see God as guiding the majority of those on earth, trust research and grow - progress from the increase in information or.... well, I guess some people just do not like change, and will do anything to rationalize their judgement of "everyone else" (who are feeding the poor, and taking care of the needy, and standing up against persecution) ... 

 

Reminds me of a story about a kid who kept being fired from work - they went on and on about how each place of employment was unjust, unfair, wrong, cruel... claiming "Everyone else" is wrong, they alone were "right"....  the story was cuter than my retelling of it, but someone finally got it through their heads, that perhaps, just perhaps... it was not "everyone else" that had the problem.  

but I am sure... in the case of the little Mormon church, it is "everyone else" who is wrong and has the problem  

Edited July 7, 2019 by changed

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Yes - I guess you can believe in a small god who only saves a small little privileged group.... or you can believe in a big God who saves all mankind...  the majority of the people will not be led astray, and if you look at the majority of the people in this world - well - the important part is everyone is learning how to be more inclusive, how to be more loving and understanding.  The information age has brought so many lessons, bringing people together like never before - some view this as an era of enlightenment - more people can read and write, fewer people in the world are starving to death, "by the people, for the people" - individuals have been given a platform and voice like never before, tearing down unjust rulers, giving power to unite and increase understanding as never before.  

You either jump on that beautiful big band wagon - see God as guiding the majority of those on earth, trust research and grow - progress from the increase in information or.... well, I guess some people just do not like change, and will do anything to rationalize their judgement of "everyone else" (who are feeding the poor, and taking care of the needy, and standing up against persecution) ... 

 

Reminds me of a story about a kid who kept being fired from work - they went on and on about how each place of employment was unjust, unfair, wrong, cruel... claiming "Everyone else" is wrong, they alone were "right"....  the story was cuter than my retelling of it, but someone finally got it through their heads, that perhaps, just perhaps... it was not "everyone else" that had the problem.  

but I am sure... in the case of the little Mormon church, it is "everyone else" who is wrong and has the problem  

Inclusion, love, and understanding are increasing worldwide?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahha! Okay thanks, I needed a good laugh.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

which has caused a complete loss of faith in their leaders

Which could be at times a sin of pride, believing they know better than others and judging them inappropriately.

[changed]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Inclusion, love, and understanding are increasing worldwide?

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahha! Okay thanks, I needed a good laugh.

It's the 60's all over again - women are working, gender neutral bathrooms, Blacks getting the priesthood - you know, things are looking up

[Calm]

I also believe simple ignorance is a transgression, an error based on imperfection.  Everyone is ignorant in some fashion as part of our mortal existence.  Willful ignorance, otoh, I believe is a sin, but whether ignorance is due to simple lacks or actual sin, I don't believe I have the ability to know in most cases as even rejecting truth when clearly presented might be a result of mortal limitations and not conscious choice.

So those who leave on principle arrived at through willful ignorance (choosing to reject truths) would be, imo, sinning.  But as I said, not something I am capable of judging.  I believe that type of sin is judged by the self when it is recognized through the Spirit as well as God.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, changed said:

It's the 60's all over again - women are working, gender neutral bathrooms, Blacks getting the priesthood - you know, things are looking up

Increase in human trafficking...

https://news.un.org/en/story/2019/01/1029912

[JAHS]

One factor could be that church members are having fewer children now who would have become members.

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, changed said:

It's the 60's all over again - women are working, gender neutral bathrooms, Blacks getting the priesthood - you know, things are looking up

Racial tensions are on the rise, politics worldwide are polarizing, the wealth gap is the highest it has ever been in the history of the planet, fascism is peeking out again, dictators are taking control of regional powers, the Arab Spring was a dud, flying death robots prowl the skies, the changing climate threatens famine and mass displacement, human trafficking reduces human lives to their economic value, families are unstable, and increasing automation means that we will have to rework our entire economic system with no will to fix it.

By comparison transgender people getting a few bathrooms seems insignificant and the end of the Priesthood Ban, while important, affected a relative few on the planet.

The 60s were more a time of speaking about love and unity and all that. There is less evidence it was being lived.

[changed]

54 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Racial tensions are on the rise, politics worldwide are polarizing, the wealth gap is the highest it has ever been in the history of the planet, fascism is peeking out again, dictators are taking control of regional powers, the Arab Spring was a dud, flying death robots prowl the skies, the changing climate threatens famine and mass displacement, human trafficking reduces human lives to their economic value, families are unstable, and increasing automation means that we will have to rework our entire economic system with no will to fix it.

By comparison transgender people getting a few bathrooms seems insignificant and the end of the Priesthood Ban, while important, affected a relative few on the planet.

The 60s were more a time of speaking about love and unity and all that. There is less evidence it was being lived.

 

[kimpearson]

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on what role Church leadership has on these numbers.  It seems to me like our leadership has focused almost exclusively on families made up of husbands and wives in strong relationships that are temple worthy and raising children to repeat the same process or in other words "multi generational members" to quote a church presentation I attended a number of years ago.  The families focused on are also middle class with the resources to have children participate in youth programs and provide adult supervision to such programs.  Anyone not in this situation seems to be strongly encouraged to move to that situation such as young single or single adults and the current self reliance programs.  No real programs or guidance seems to be given to any other type of life situation.  My theory is that as more and more members have a different life experience or have loved ones with a different life experience, they struggle with the current leadership of the Church.  I also believe that the multi generational member approach seems to have a very strong initial appeal in new proselytizing areas such as Africa but with time loses its appeal as once again more and more members either personally experience or have loved ones who experience different life situations.  The different life situations I am referring to are divorced members, families with family members who have left the Church, poorer families that spend much of life just putting food on the table with little time left over for full participation is Church activities, single members, LGTBQ members and members with chronic mental and physical issues.  My understanding is that over 50% of current Church members are in these different life situations as well as a larger percentage of the worlds population.  It seems to me in other words that the current type of person our current Church leadership has chosen to focus on is become a smaller percentage of the actual Church membership and world population.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, changed said:

 

Yes - I guess you can believe in a small god who only saves a small little privileged group.... or you can believe in a big God who saves all mankind...  the majority of the people will not be led astray, and if you look at the majority of the people in this world - well - the important part is everyone is learning how to be more inclusive, how to be more loving and understanding.  The information age has brought so many lessons, bringing people together like never before - some view this as an era of enlightenment - more people can read and write, fewer people in the world are starving to death, "by the people, for the people" - individuals have been given a platform and voice like never before, tearing down unjust rulers, giving power to unite and increase understanding as never before.  

You either jump on that beautiful big band wagon - see God as guiding the majority of those on earth, trust research and grow - progress from the increase in information or.... well, I guess some people just do not like change, and will do anything to rationalize their judgement of "everyone else" (who are feeding the poor, and taking care of the needy, and standing up against persecution) ... 

 

Reminds me of a story about a kid who kept being fired from work - they went on and on about how each place of employment was unjust, unfair, wrong, cruel... claiming "Everyone else" is wrong, they alone were "right"....  the story was cuter than my retelling of it, but someone finally got it through their heads, that perhaps, just perhaps... it was not "everyone else" that had the problem.  

but I am sure... in the case of the little Mormon church, it is "everyone else" who is wrong and has the problem  

You're kidding right? We just had a 7.1 earthquake here in Southern California and I suggest you go read the comments on Yahoo News where over 50% of the people wish we had fallen off into the ocean because we vote Democrat.

[changed]

1 minute ago, rodheadlee said:

You're kidding right? We just had a 7.1 earthquake here in Southern California and I suggest you go read the comments on Yahoo News where over 50% of the people wish we had fallen off into the ocean because we vote Democrat.

 

Gotta love conservatives   It's true, there are those who are unkind, but majority rules, there are 7.7 billion people alive and well because more people are making love than war   Hope you are doing ok after the earthquake - looked crazy!

[changed]

52 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I would be interested in hearing thoughts on what role Church leadership has on these numbers.  It seems to me like our leadership has focused almost exclusively on families made up of husbands and wives in strong relationships that are temple worthy and raising children to repeat the same process or in other words "multi generational members" to quote a church presentation I attended a number of years ago.  The families focused on are also middle class with the resources to have children participate in youth programs and provide adult supervision to such programs.  Anyone not in this situation seems to be strongly encouraged to move to that situation such as young single or single adults and the current self reliance programs.  No real programs or guidance seems to be given to any other type of life situation.  My theory is that as more and more members have a different life experience or have loved ones with a different life experience, they struggle with the current leadership of the Church.  I also believe that the multi generational member approach seems to have a very strong initial appeal in new proselytizing areas such as Africa but with time loses its appeal as once again more and more members either personally experience or have loved ones who experience different life situations.  The different life situations I am referring to are divorced members, families with family members who have left the Church, poorer families that spend much of life just putting food on the table with little time left over for full participation is Church activities, single members, LGTBQ members and members with chronic mental and physical issues.  My understanding is that over 50% of current Church members are in these different life situations as well as a larger percentage of the worlds population.  It seems to me in other words that the current type of person our current Church leadership has chosen to focus on is become a smaller percentage of the actual Church membership and world population.

 

Very good observation - perhaps Wendy, who chose to stay single the majority of her life, would be a good influence? ... or perhaps not (did she not get married because she felt she was too good for anyone else?  I don't know... Nelson sure remarried quickly after wife #1 passed away though... )  

I think a really good thing would be to form support groups for those in similar circumstances - groups for single moms, groups for part-member families, groups for divorced members - at least I think the best way to help people is pairing them with mentors who have been there done that.  .... just wishful thinking though... 

all this talk of missionary work - I think service is better than proselyting, and ... leaving the 99 to go after the 1?  ... everyone I know who left was not asked by anyone why they left - were ignored, and avoided ...

Those who need the most help are not getting it imo... just my experience though.  

Edited July 8, 2019 by changed

[Calm]

2 hours ago, changed said:

did she not get married because she felt she was too good for anyone else

How would you know this?  And why does that kind of gossip even need to be part of the conversation?

-----

Studies have shown widowers who were happy in strong marriages tend to get remarried again relatively quickly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/01/fashion/thursdaystyles/01marry.html

Quote

For men whose marriage ends only because of death there is often a desire to repeat the happiness they knew," said Susan Shapiro Barash, who teaches gender studies at Marymount Manhattan College. "These men love being married, and they are good husband material."

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

Very good observation - perhaps Wendy, who chose to stay single the majority of her life, would be a good influence? ... or perhaps not (did she not get married because she felt she was too good for anyone else?  I don't know... Nelson sure remarried quickly after wife #1 passed away though... )  

 

That’s pretty mean. Do you know either of them personally?

Quote

I think a really good thing would be to form support groups for those in similar circumstances - groups for single moms, groups for part-member families, groups for divorced members - at least I think the best way to help people is pairing them with mentors who have been there done that.  .... just wishful thinking though... 

all this talk of missionary work - I think service is better than proselyting, and ... leaving the 99 to go after the 1?  ... everyone I know who left was not asked by anyone why they left - were ignored, and avoided ...

Those who need the most help are not getting it imo... just my experience though.  

Perhaps you could get around more. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Wendy, who chose to stay single the majority of her life, would be a good influence? ... or perhaps not (did she not get married because she felt she was too good for anyone else? 

Not the case.   

She didnt “choose” to be single nor did she think she was too good . 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, changed said:

 

I stand corrected. A propaganda/inspirational video about soccer has made me decide the world is a good and happy place and is going to become more so.

 

 

 

 

[changed]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

How would you know this?  And why does that kind of gossip even need to be part of the conversation?

-----

Studies have shown widowers who were happy in strong marriages tend to get remarried again relatively quickly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/01/fashion/thursdaystyles/01marry.html

 

 

I had one set of grandparents who died within days of one another... another set, that did not get remarried (not LDS).  So.... "one and only", fidelity, loyalty - this is what I grew up with and what is important to me.  I guess those things are really not celebrated in this crowd... That is fine - whatever everyone needs, not my idea of heaven, but then different strokes for different folks. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by changed

[changed]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I stand corrected. A propaganda/inspirational video about soccer has made me decide the world is a good and happy place and is going to become more so.

 

Not a soccer fan?  I'd dare say there are more people in this world who cheered on that video than are members of the LDS church.  

[Calm]

Just now, changed said:

 

Not a soccer fan?  I'd dare say there are more people in this world who cheered on that video than are members of the LDS church.  

And that demonstrates what exactly?

[Calm]

33 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I had one set of grandparents who died within days of one another... another set, that did not get remarried (not LDS).  So.... "one and only", fidelity, loyalty - this is what I grew up with and what is important to me.  I guess those things are really not celebrated in this crowd... That is fine - whatever everyone needs, not my idea of heaven, but then different strokes for different folks. 

And yet you seem so comfortable to condemn or find fault with others who look at things differently than you do.  Maybe if you looked at your own words like you are asking others to use tolerance in theirs your views would be more persuasive.

The same happened with my grandparents, my husband’s grandparents (one was a widow for 60 years, pregnant with her second when he died)and our parents. Is this some sort of competition in your view?  

God is the most faithful being in the Universe, faithful to each of his billions of children.

If fidelity is synonymous with exclusivity, what a sad fate for humanity imo. Only one child per family, children who have lost a parent never being able to have another to comfort them, single parents left on their own to raise children in loneliness,etc.

If widow/erhood is their choice and they are content in it and do not resent it, I celebrate it. If widows and widowers felt so grateful for the marriage they experienced they want to do it again, I celebrate that as well. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by Calm

[The Nehor]

3 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Not a soccer fan?  I'd dare say there are more people in this world who cheered on that video than are members of the LDS church.  

I was in Manchester when they won the treble cup in 1999 and follow the World Cup today as a casual fan.

More people heard speeches by Hitler then watched that video. I am not sure that means much but you seem to think quantity is important.