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18 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I guess I had special permission.  My dying wife insisted that I get remarried because she was afraid that I would not do well as a single man.

Do you have health issues where you need someone to care for you?

My grandmother spent so much time with grampy - 75 years - that she never had time for herself.  Her time alone allowed her to define and find herself as an individual.  I think this applies to many widows, as women tend to live longer than men - I think God allows this because caretakers need time off - time to care for and find themselves too. 

I would hope that marriage is not a dependent relationship - where one or the other is not ok on their own, not able to take care of themselves, not able to be single... we should be able to take care of not only ourselves, but take care of children and others who legitimately need help.  

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16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My ward is my family, and my closest and most emotionally intimate relationships are all with fellow Church members. We spend time together and live in each other's hearts and lives and homes.

Regarding current conversion data, I don't like them. But I also fully expect the trend to shift. As I read from a historian yesterday, by 1750, Christianity in England was in its death throes. London had about 10,000 prostitutes, and attendance at St Paul's on Easter that year numbered 16 people. That didn't last, and even now, it hasn't been replicated. People love to look at trends and project them forward, but reality -- as the Book of Mormon makes abundantly clear -- is far more like a sine wave.

Yeah, the Book of Mormon has shifts......huge ones. Mass defections from righteousness in less then a decade and at other times conversion rates so high that the church leaders are all shocked.

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8 minutes ago, changed said:

Do you have health issues where you need someone to care for you?

My grandmother spent so much time with grampy - 75 years - that she never had time for herself.  Her time alone allowed her to define and find herself as an individual.  I think this applies to many widows, as women tend to live longer than men - I think God allows this because caretakers need time off - time to care for and find themselves too. 

I would hope that marriage is not a dependent relationship - where one or the other is not ok on their own, not able to take care of themselves, not able to be single... we should be able to take care of not only ourselves, but take care of children and others who legitimately need help.  

Some older couples have the opposite problem where they have lived in separate spheres (often work for him and kids for her) for so long that they are not really connected. My Mission President once told me the biggest surprise for him in the field was how much marriage counseling he had to give to some of the senior couples who basically lived parallel but separate lives and then are suddenly together 24/7 having to work together and start having serious problems.

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One of the young couples who left were offended by my expressed belief that social change is better left to Congress and state legislatures—using as an example the fact that the NM legislature abolished the death penalty in the state with no controversy whatsoever (whereas if the courts had done it, we’d still be arguing about it). The fellow said, “Well, the Mormons probably would have liked a little help from the courts in Missouri in the 1830s.” And my reply—that there’s a huge difference between asking a court to enforce or vindicate rights that already exist in law or under the Constitution and asking a court to create rights that have previously been unrecognized (and which probably have been specifically unaddressed by the legislative branch)—only made things worse. The Mormons obviously would have liked the US Supreme Court to invalidate Congress’s anti-polygamy statutes in the 1870s (instead of creating the constitutional maxim that the First Amendment protects only religious belief, not necessarily religious practice); however, the Court paid great deference to Congress, as I feel was appropriate in the circumstances.  (Nowadays, not only would Congress probably not take up polygamy, but the federal courts wouldn’t be the least bit reticent to invalidate anything Congress had done that the judges believed to be bad policy.) That such strong philosophical differences exist between church members highlights how politics has overwhelmed any social (or even religious) bond we used to have.

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9 minutes ago, esodije said:

One of the young couples who left were offended by my expressed belief that social change is better left to Congress and state legislatures—using as an example the fact that the NM legislature abolished the death penalty in the state with no controversy whatsoever (whereas if the courts had done it, we’d still be arguing about it). The fellow said, “Well, the Mormons probably would have liked a little help from the courts in Missouri in the 1830s.” And my reply—that there’s a huge difference between asking a court to enforce or vindicate rights that already exist in law or under the Constitution and asking a court to create rights that have previously been unrecognized (and which probably have been specifically unaddressed by the legislative branch)—only made things worse. The Mormons obviously would have liked the US Supreme Court to invalidate Congress’s anti-polygamy statutes in the 1870s (instead of creating the constitutional maxim that the First Amendment protects only religious belief, not necessarily religious practice); however, the Court paid great deference to Congress, as I feel was appropriate in the circumstances.  (Nowadays, not only would Congress probably not take up polygamy, but the federal courts wouldn’t be the least bit reticent to invalidate anything Congress had done that the judges believed to be bad policy.) That such strong philosophical differences exist between church members highlights how politics has overwhelmed any social (or even religious) bond we used to have.

Please tell me this was not in a church meeting or lesson. Please!

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Some older couples have the opposite problem where they have lived in separate spheres (often work for him and kids for her) for so long that they are not really connected. My Mission President once told me the biggest surprise for him in the field was how much marriage counseling he had to give to some of the senior couples who basically lived parallel but separate lives and then are suddenly together 24/7 having to work together and start having serious problems.

 

Now that I am working full time, my marriage has improved greatly.  It's true - if roles are not equally shared (providing, and nurturing) it is easy to grow apart.  If both parents work, and both parents share the responsibility of taking care of the kids, there is more to connect one another, more to share, greater understanding - we can both talk about work with one another (something we did not really do when I was not working), we both talk about and are aware of all the kids activities (another thing that previously I just did on my own)  - we're not off in separate spheres anymore now that we are both sharing responsibility for everything... gender defined roles can create parallel, separate, isolated spheres...

 

Edit to add that set of grandparents - 75 years of marriage - were very close to one another.  Not LDS, both worked, they raised quite a few more kids than their own, were very close - neither of them would have ever considered getting married again to anyone else.  They were also really strong people - great depression, WW2 vet (granny on her own through ww2)  .. dependent to independent to interdependent back to independent.  It really is a higher bond I think if people are "equally yoked" - both working, both caring for kids, both protecting, not separate roles  with one role forcing the nurturer into a dependent sphere...

Edited by changed
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On 7/9/2019 at 4:24 PM, Calm said:

A lion pair resting in the middle of all that meat?  That is idealistic silliness.

Too a point maybe, but during the reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth, we are told in scripture it will be the case. On another level, lions whose bellies are full, often just look at other animals, while waiting for the 20 mins it takes to get hungry again. Kind of like humans checking out the meat section while planning their next meal. 🤣

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1 hour ago, esodije said:

One of the young couples who left were offended by my expressed belief that social change is better left to Congress and state legislatures—using as an example the fact that the NM legislature abolished the death penalty in the state with no controversy whatsoever (whereas if the courts had done it, we’d still be arguing about it). The fellow said, “Well, the Mormons probably would have liked a little help from the courts in Missouri in the 1830s.” And my reply—that there’s a huge difference between asking a court to enforce or vindicate rights that already exist in law or under the Constitution and asking a court to create rights that have previously been unrecognized (and which probably have been specifically unaddressed by the legislative branch)—only made things worse. The Mormons obviously would have liked the US Supreme Court to invalidate Congress’s anti-polygamy statutes in the 1870s (instead of creating the constitutional maxim that the First Amendment protects only religious belief, not necessarily religious practice); however, the Court paid great deference to Congress, as I feel was appropriate in the circumstances.  (Nowadays, not only would Congress probably not take up polygamy, but the federal courts wouldn’t be the least bit reticent to invalidate anything Congress had done that the judges believed to be bad policy.) That such strong philosophical differences exist between church members highlights how politics has overwhelmed any social (or even religious) bond we used to have.

Polygammy, burning the press and trying to restrict freedom of speech, Danites looting and...   

Yes, the courts - not a religious group - should direct social change....

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Just now, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Too a point maybe, but during the reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth, we are told in scripture it will be the case.

The description is without humans around though.

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Just now, Calm said:

The description is without humans around though.

True, but to reply I could not include the oversimplification depicted in the pictures you were addressing. As humans, we will certainly be around, as the earth with be restored to it’s paradisiacal glory, with us in it.  

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, the Book of Mormon has shifts......huge ones. Mass defections from righteousness in less then a decade and at other times conversion rates so high that the church leaders are all shocked.

Exactly. Watching America from afar (and online),  it almost looks like one of those periods where many of the Nephites fell into corruption whilst the Lamanites flourished. No doubt many apostates in the Zarahemla heartland were predicting doom and gloom during those periods. But God knows how to accomplish His grand designs, and I’ve been told by an apostle that we’ve only just finished laying the foundation of the Restoration. I unreservedly believe that. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 1:42 AM, Thinking said:

Since 2008 I have been tracking 20 selected areas of the Church. I have attached the pdf.

Some noteworthy facts:

  • The membership increase from 2014 to 2015 was 261,862 (1.70%)
  • The membership increase from 2015 to 2016 was 248,218 (1.59%)
  • The membership increase from 2016 to 2017 was 235,752 (1.48%)
  • The membership increase from 2017 to 2018 was 195,566 (1.21%)

LDS Church Membership 2008-2018.pdf 118.35 kB · 8 downloads

 

The number of congregation is a lot more valid of a count as opposed to the number of members.   Consistency in tabulating membership as people die, migrate for employment, go off to school, the army or prison, or just drop out to one degree or another and disappear- when should they be subtracted?    Getting everyone on the same page with tabulating procedures in a large, worldwide organization where a hundred languages are spoken-  almost impossible

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2 hours ago, changed said:

Polygammy, burning the press and trying to restrict freedom of speech, Danites looting and...   

Yes, the courts - not a religious group - should direct social change....

Thank you for your off topic and irrelevant tangent bashing the church.

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4 hours ago, Calm said:

The description is without humans around though.

Second reply, I was pointing out sort of tongue in cheek that the pictures you referred to, by another poster, were an oversimplification, not your comment. Hope that was not lost in translation?

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On 7/8/2019 at 10:05 PM, changed said:

When I look back, I see progress - cured diseases, increased ability to communicate with others, increased education.  100 years ago 95% of the population worked as a farmer - no one had a choice in career, short life expectancy, people lived and died within 10 miles of where they were born - now so many travel the world, choose where to work, reads more books, talks to people from all over the world - I see God in this progress.  I think God is anti-slavery, I think God embraces unity and inclusion, connecting people - 

thousands of years of stagnation - of illiterate, trapped, isolated communities to... cell phones, and internet, and airplanes - it is amazing, and wonderful - barriers are being broken.

 

in 20 yrs.jpg

Too bad that Rapinoe can't speak on national TV without throwing out F bombs. I don't think that's a very good example to set for children.

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On 7/8/2019 at 8:26 AM, Analytics said:

Regarding the various comments about whether the world is getting better or worse, I highly recommend the book Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress by Steve Pinker. With wide open eyes, he looks at the state of the world from history. He argues,

"Life before the Enlightenment was darkened by starvation, plagues, superstitions, maternal and infant mortality, marauding knight-warlords, sadistic torture-executions, slavery, witch hunts, and genocidal crusades, conquests, and wars of religion. Good riddance. The arcs in figures 5-1 through 18-4 show that as ingenuity and sympathy have been applied to the human condition, life has gotten longer, healthier, richer, safer, happier, freer, smarter, deeper, and more interesting. Problems remain, but problems are inevitable."

Pinker, Steven. Enlightenment Now (p. 364). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. 

The problem with this is it could all come tumbling down in a week or two period. 

All It will take is for the u.s. to go to war with Iran and for Russia and China to jump in on the side of Iran. India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, the UK would would jump in on our side.WW III. I guess I subscribe to Nehor's  view of the future. 

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On 7/7/2019 at 9:21 AM, ALarson said:

I have not seen more people leave the church because they want to live an immoral life vs. how many are discovering facts about church history they previously were unaware of (for whatever reason).  This is what is shaking most member's faith who are leaving from what I have seen in our ward and stake.  Most I've known who have left still have the same desire to live a moral life.

The OP was not about numbers of people leaving the Church. It was about a slowdown in the rate of membership increase. The general influence of Satan in the world (as prophesied in the scripture that was quoted) is a plausible explanation as said influence blinds the eyes of many people to things of the Spirit, resulting in their being less apt to recognize truth when it is presented to them. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The OP was not about numbers of people leaving the Church. It was about a slowdown in the rate of membership increase. The general influence of Satan in the world (as prophesied in the scripture that was quoted) is a plausible explanation as said influence blinds the eyes of many people to things of the Spirit, resulting in their being less apt to recognize truth when it is presented to them. 

I'm guessing the slowdown in growth as more to do with access to information and fact checking that the internet has provided.  The rise in internet connectivity in the first word corresponds with the decrease in membership numbers in the first world.  Right now the church's main grown is coming from Africa and other areas that have yet to experience significant internet connectivity.  Knowledge is power.  The WWW is a game changer for sure.   I guess time will tell,  

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1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I'm guessing the slowdown in growth as more to do with access to information and fact checking that the internet has provided.  The rise in internet connectivity in the first word corresponds with the decrease in membership numbers in the first world.  Right now the church's main grown is coming from Africa and other areas that have yet to experience significant internet connectivity.  Knowledge is power.  The WWW is a game changer for sure.   I guess time will tell,  

Perhaps. I agree time will tell. 

I don’t have documentation at the ready, but I understand there is a general and growing antipathy, among younger people especially, toward faith and religion in general and that the Church of Jesus Christ is doing comparatively better when viewed against this background. This antipathy could be seen as the influence of Satan, particularly in more developed societies where wealth and access to education works against humility such as one might see more of in the third world (#pridecycle). 

Furthermore, access to information does not always yield positive fruits. Those who have been engaged in defending the Church in the internet age know only too well that there is a great deal of bad information on the internet pertaining to the Church: pure falsehood and/or error, partial truths blended with falsehood, opinion passed off as fact, slanted presentation of facts, etc. From a faith perspective, this too could be seen as the influence of Satan as foreseen in Nephi’s vision. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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On 7/9/2019 at 6:04 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

My ward is my family, and my closest and most emotionally intimate relationships are all with fellow Church members. We spend time together and live in each other's hearts and lives and homes.

Regarding current conversion data, I don't like them. But I also fully expect the trend to shift. As I read from a historian yesterday, by 1750, Christianity in England was in its death throes. London had about 10,000 prostitutes, and attendance at St Paul's on Easter that year numbered 16 people. That didn't last, and even now, it hasn't been replicated. People love to look at trends and project them forward, but reality -- as the Book of Mormon makes abundantly clear -- is far more like a sine wave.

I hope you’re right, of course. But it will not shake my faith if present trends (consistent with what was foreseen in Nephi’s vision and consistent with the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees) continue on toward the dawn of the Millennium. 

Those, both believers and unbelievers, who see the prophecy of Daniel regarding the stone cut out of the mountain without hands as indicative of numerical dominance of Church members in the world prior to the Second Coming of Christ have a misconception, I believe. I see the principal fulfillment of that prophecy as occurring during the Millennium, after Christ has come to reign personally on the earth. It will be then that the government of God, like the stone rolling forth, will swallow up all earthly kingdoms and the Kingdom of God will fill the earth. 

Meanwhile, it is our duty to prepare the world for the coming of Christ in glory. We are to set up the infrastructure, as it were, by establishing a Church presence all over the world (as foreseen in Nephi’s vision) so that those who do hear and accept the restored gospel can unite themselves with a nearby stake of Zion and join in the latter-day work. 

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51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Perhaps. I agree time will tell. 

I don’t have documentation at the ready, but I understand there is a general and growing antipathy, among younger people especially, toward faith and religion in general and that the Church of Jesus Christ is doing comparatively better when viewed against this background. This antipathy could be seen as the influence of Satan, particularly in more developed societies where wealth and access to education works against humility such as one might see more of in the third world (#pridecycle). 

As I referenced earlier in this thread, Christianity doesn't seem to be able to see their role in this accelerated movie away from organized religion.  We currently  have most of the Christian Right not only. supporting a sexual predator who has been caught bribing hookers while on his third marriage all three of which he committed adultery while married, and two times married the person who he was cheating with

From the article in the Atlantic

Quote

The rallygoers, he said, told him that Trump’s era “is spiritually driven.” When I asked whether he meant by this that Trump’s supporters believe God’s hand is on Trump, this moment and at the election—that Donald Trump is God’s man, in effect—he told me, “Yes—a number of people said they believe there is no other way to explain his victories. Starting with the election and continuing with the conclusion of the Mueller report. Many said God has chosen him and is protecting him.”

Just what does Christianity stand for these days?  What message could they possibly preach on Sunday would have any credibility?

And then you have your own Church first trying to take away the civil rights of gays to marry and when that failed, creating hostile church policies against gay families and even today barring married gay couples from fully participating in your religion.The clear and strong message is for gay couples to not marry, which by default means living together without marriage and if they do get married, stay away from participating in our church.  Then blaming young people for not going along with this scheme.  The Church and these Evangelic Churches may fervently believe that God has his hand in all of this, but the younger generation sees it as a belief system they just can't buy into.  How many stories have we heard where people have tied there departure from the Church directly to the policies directed against gay families.  And religion seems to not have a clue why they don't want to be a part fo that kind of belief. It must be them.  It must be Satan.  Religion hasn't done anything to cause this mass fleeing.

 

51 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Furthermore, access to information does not always yield positive fruits. Those who have been engaged in defending the Church in the internet age know only too well that there is a great deal of bad information on the internet pertaining to the Church: pure falsehood and/or error, partial truths blended with falsehood, opinion passed off as fact, slanted presentation of facts, etc. From a faith perspective, this too could be seen as the influence of Satan as foreseen in Nephi’s vision. 

You do realize that these anti-Mormon propaganda sites got Church history more correct than the Church itself.  Which group would you tend to believe was telling the truth?  I remember when the most anti-Mormon book was Fawn Brodie's "No Man Knows My History".  I read that book when I was in college and was disgusted with the blatant lies told about Joseph Smith.  Turns out, she got most of it correct.  It wasn't this anti Mormon evil propaganda inspired by Satan piece the Church made it out to be, it was a pretty accurate biography on Joseph Smith without the whitewashing.  

Access to information has yielded more truth than lies.  Before you continue to blame Satan, you might want to look at the role the Church played in all of this.And before you pat yourself on the back too much, you might want to acknowledge the army of missionaries the Church has knocking on doors every single day in order to keep those numbers just slightly ahead of other Christian churches.

I know you and others are not going to like this post.  And I am not saying the fleeing from Christianity is all a result of organized religion in the day we live in.  But before you label me as you have labeled others as being some anti-Mormon critic, ask yourself if there is just a small grain of truth in what I point out.  The Church is making great strides in correcting many of it's past errors.  But trust is not going to be given back easily.  As Joseph Smith said to the woman who came to him because she was wronged, that when some of his distractors say something bad about him, he looks carefully at what they are saying and asks himself if there is something he had done to deserve their rebuke.  Often there is, and he went about changing that which was wrong.

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11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The OP was not about numbers of people leaving the Church. It was about a slowdown in the rate of membership increase. 

The number of those leaving the church (resigning) affect the membership numbers (the title of this thread).   Or do you believe those are not reflected (or included) in the numbers posted in the OP?

Edited by ALarson
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1 hour ago, ALarson said:

The number of those leaving the church (resigning) affect the membership numbers (the title of this thread).   Or do you believe those are not reflected (or included) in the numbers posted in the OP?

So you’re saying the successive decline in membership increase year over year is the result of name removal requests more so than a lessening of convert baptisms? I would need to see some documentation on that. For one thing, how would you track that? My intuition is that those who do  become disenchanted or lose interest generally don’t bother going through the formal name-removal procedure. They just quit coming to meetings and don’t bother raising a fuss about it. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So you’re saying the successive decline in membership increase year over year is the result of name removal requests more so than a lessening of convert baptisms? 

No, that's not what I stated.  But both (the numbers of those leaving the church and also the lower number of converts) are a part of this discussion.  

Edited by ALarson
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1 hour ago, ALarson said:

The number of those leaving the church (resigning) affect the membership numbers (the title of this thread).   Or do you believe those are not reflected (or included) in the numbers posted in the OP?

They are but I believe the General Authorities when they say resignations always happen but the numbers doing so have not significantly increased.

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