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USU78

Happy 4th!!

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Cap says: "Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. 

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- "No, YOU move."

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I am uncomfortable with this platitude.

The Founding Fathers knew all human beings have fallen nature.  They wanted to come up with a system that recognized the rights of the people to self government and to protect against tyranny of any kind.  The US Constitution is a miracle inspired by God.  Nothing like it has been done in all of world history.

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- "No, YOU move."

Wasn’t the Constitution itself a document of compromise?

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5 hours ago, Calm said:

Wasn’t the Constitution itself a document of compromise?

Yes.  In the very struggle between large and small states, between powerful central government and minimal, between majorities and minorities, etc, God inspired the debate that lead to many more protections, divisions of powers, preservation of natural laws.  D&C 101:80 And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose, and redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

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1 hour ago, longview said:

redeemed the land by the shedding of blood.

OK , I need someone to explain this. 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, strappinglad said:

OK , I need someone to explain this. 

I don't fully understand the concept.  Need to do more research.  But I think there are several scriptures that touch on this requirement.  My quick answer is to say in order for America to obtain the miracle of a Constitutional Republic the people had to fight the Revolutionary War.  When America went wayward in the following decades and did not overcome contentions (did not respect the rights of the Restored Church) and corruption and failed to resolve the Slavery Issue, another bloody terrifying war was fought in 1860-5.  Interestingly at BYU Education Week (I think about 3 years ago) a presenter claimed that Lincoln had to die as a necessary sacrifice.  The following scriptures explain why:

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

D&C 135:6 Hyrum Smith was forty-four years old in February, 1844, and Joseph Smith was thirty-eight in December, 1843; and henceforward their names will be classed among the martyrs of religion; and the reader in every nation will be reminded that the Book of Mormon, and this book of Doctrine and Covenants of the church, cost the best blood of the nineteenth century to bring them forth for the salvation of a ruined world; and that if the fire can scathe a green tree for the glory of God, how easy it will burn up the dry trees to purify the vineyard of corruption. They lived for glory; they died for glory; and glory is their eternal reward. From age to age shall their names go down to posterity as gems for the sanctified.

Edited by longview
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15 hours ago, USU78 said:

Cap says: "Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. 

This nation was founded on one principle above all else: The requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- "No, YOU move."

There are things this quote applies to. Others it does not. While one should take a stand for truth sometimes an obstinate stand is pointless. If you take this position on a city zoning plan you are probably an idiot. If you do it for someone wrongfully imprisoned or fundamental rights being taken it can make more sense.

 

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11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There are things this quote applies to. Others it does not. While one should take a stand for truth sometimes an obstinate stand is pointless. If you take this position on a city zoning plan you are probably an idiot. If you do it for someone wrongfully imprisoned or fundamental rights being taken it can make more sense.

The quote is a riff off Thomas Jefferson:

Quote

In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.

 

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:58 PM, Calm said:

Wasn’t the Constitution itself a document of compromise?

You're reading too much into it.  It is basically a recapitulation of Jefferson:  "In matters of principle, stand like a rock."

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On 7/4/2019 at 11:53 AM, longview said:

I am uncomfortable with this platitude.

The Founding Fathers knew all human beings have fallen nature.  They wanted to come up with a system that recognized the rights of the people to self government and to protect against tyranny of any kind.  The US Constitution is a miracle inspired by God.  Nothing like it has been done in all of world history.

You dislike Jefferson?

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31 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The quote is a riff off Thomas Jefferson:

 

I wish Jefferson offered a conclusive definition between political issues that hinge definitively on principle and those that do not. The problem is you can find a principle in any issue if you look hard enough and some do.

30 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You dislike Jefferson?

Only his judgement in picking his first Vice President. Well, okay there are a lot of reasons I dislike him a bit but I like him on the whole. It is interesting that he is the spiritual founder of both our current political parties who both claim to be the inheritors of the ideals of his Democratic-Republican party. Rereading that sentence I have decided I like him less now. ;) 

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3 hours ago, USU78 said:

You dislike Jefferson?

I admire him for many reasons.  Although it was very strange that he would redact many parts of his Bible (he was a deist).

Edited by longview

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wish Jefferson offered a conclusive definition between political issues that hinge definitively on principle and those that do not. The problem is you can find a principle in any issue if you look hard enough and some do.

Only his judgement in picking his first Vice President. Well, okay there are a lot of reasons I dislike him a bit but I like him on the whole. It is interesting that he is the spiritual founder of both our current political parties who both claim to be the inheritors of the ideals of his Democratic-Republican party. Rereading that sentence I have decided I like him less now. ;) 

The 12th Amendment made Georgie Clinton the first presidential option Veep in 1804. What was so awful about him?

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

The 12th Amendment made Georgie Clinton the first presidential option Veep in 1804. What was so awful about him?

I was talking about his first VP: Aaron Burr.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was talking about his first VP: Aaron Burr.

That was under the old system, where the person who came in second in the electoral college was the Veep. Not Jefferson's fault. Arguably John Adams', who came in third.

Edited by USU78

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18 hours ago, USU78 said:

That was under the old system, where the person who came in second in the electoral college was the Veep. Not Jefferson's fault. Arguably John Adams', who came in third.

Jefferson and Burr were coordinating their electoral activities to win together and there is circumstantial evidence Burr tried to steal the presidency from Jefferson.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Jefferson and Burr were coordinating their electoral activities to win together and there is circumstantial evidence Burr tried to steal the presidency from Jefferson.

Since we're talking circumstantial evidence, whaddya think of Jefferson's campaign rhetoric, calling Adams a hermaphrodite?

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51 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Since we're talking circumstantial evidence, whaddya think of Jefferson's campaign rhetoric, calling Adams a hermaphrodite?

He did not really do that. He used it as a metaphor claiming Adams did not have the positive attributes of men or women. That being said that election was the first big advent of negative presidential campaigning in our history and the rhetoric and falsehoods were vile.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

He did not really do that. He used it as a metaphor claiming Adams did not have the positive attributes of men or women. That being said that election was the first big advent of negative presidential campaigning in our history and the rhetoric and falsehoods were vile.

Yeah. We made it all the way to the fourth one.

Yay for us!

As for the "metaphor," are we really supposed to believe that a sophisticate like Tommy would buy that the electorate, including the electors, would see it that way?

Edited by USU78

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

A little late, but just came across a very appropriate for the 4th talk by then Elder Hinckley:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/03/in-grateful-remembrance?lang=eng

😢

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15 hours ago, USU78 said:

Yeah. We made it all the way to the fourth one.

Yay for us!

As for the "metaphor," are we really supposed to believe that a sophisticate like Tommy would buy that the electorate, including the electors, would see it that way?

I don’t think the people in general actually believed he was hermaphrodite though they probably snickered about the slur.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t think the people in general actually believed he was hermaphrodite though they probably snickered about the slur.

Another unknowable:  even if we had today's social "science" plant in place then, we'd never know to what extent the rhetorical juxtaposition of physical deformity with the supposed moral/ethical failings of JA affected people's impression of him:  "It's the economy, stupid."

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