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The Nehor

The Seer Stone Cover Up Finally Exposed and You Will Never Believe Who Did It

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Posted (edited)

Oliver Cowdery under the guidance of Joseph Smith (D&C 9:4) - the Lord called Oliver Cowdery to be scribe for Joseph Smith, the gift of Aaron mentioned in D&C 8, just as Aaron was a spokesman for Moses who was slow of speech, Oliver Cowdery was a scribe for Joseph Smith who was slow at writing, at that period of his life....

Oliver Cowdery wrote eight letters in 1834 in response to “Mormonism Unvailed” as noted in Joseph Smith Papers:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48

Cowdery composed the letters to inform the Latter-day Saints of the history of their church, but he also wrote for the non-Mormon public...”  “Throughout the series of letters, he defended JS’s character and that of the Smith family, and his explicitly apologetic statements include apparent allusions to both 

Alexander Campbell’s Delusions(1832) and 

Eber Howe’s Mormonism Unvailed (1834)

(Sidney Rigdon and others left Campell’s flock near Kirtland and joined the Church, thus Campbell’s hostility, apparently.)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/50

“...write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites should have said, [“]Interpreter..”

Thus the Stone in a Hat was an anti-mormon lie and defended against as far back as 1834, yet here it’s claimed to be the truth in a Church video, a video created by BookofMormonCentral, the same organization that claims the Hill Cumorah is in Mexico which was contrived by the RLDS Church. Ha ha ha!

Edited by Burnside

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32 minutes ago, Burnside said:

Thus the Stone in a Hat was an anti-mormon lie and defended against as far back as 1834, yet here it’s claimed to be the truth in a Church video, a video created by BookofMormonCentral, the same organization that claims the Hill Cumorah is in Mexico which was contrived by the RLDS Church. Ha ha ha!

As far as I know, Book of Mormon Central had nothing to do with the creation of the video.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Burnside said:

Thus BookofMormonCentral is promoting an anti-mormon claim!! Ha ha ha! 😄

I think you mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (church produced video). Only logo on it is the Church’s. 

Edited by Calm

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11 hours ago, Burnside said:

Totally bogus.

This contradicts the D&C and JSH in the PofGP that the plates were translated by the Urim and Thummim.

Joseph Smith stated the title page was the last leaf on the plates, but how would he have known that if he only read words from a rock, which isn’t translation, but dictation? In addition, in D&C 8 and 9, he was to work it out in the translation process, thus those off quoted Sections.

The low IQ BookofMormonCentral, obviously made this video due to the Know Why phrase, then some numbskull employee in the Church put it up on its youtube channel.

But it’s the argument used by Howe in his anti-mormon “Mormonism Unvailed” when the Church was in Kirtland, OH.

https://archive.org/details/mormonismunvaile00howe/page/76

pages 77-78 bottom paragraph then on to page 78

Thus BookofMormonCentral is promoting an anti-mormon claim!! Ha ha ha! 😄

The obvious story is, since Joseph Smith was commanded by the Angel Moroni not to show the gold plates and the Urim and Thummim to anyone, when approached by curiosity seekers, Joseph Smith may have used a rock in a hat as an example, not that he actually translated that way. Thus the false claims and current silly Church scholars promoting it.

You really think the church outsources its videos for general public consumpton to a textual analysis group instead of, you know, a digital media company? And that random employees can put videos on the church’s channel without having them vetted? Never mind the legal dangers of just grabbing someone else’s video and posting it with the church’s intro. Even if they did they would be quickly caught and fired and the video taken down.....yet it is still there.

You would have to be an idiot to believe that.

And if you are really going to claim a simple similarity in phrasing is proof of authorship the.....

11 hours ago, Burnside said:

The low IQ BookofMormonCentral,

......using that same logic I can now conclusively say that you are Donald Trump.

I will allow that this similarity in milquetoast and lazy insults supports my “idiot” theory about you.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/2/2019 at 9:12 AM, The Nehor said:

One of the seerstones is in the First Presidency vault. I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith who took it out and showed it to the apostles. In there with unpublished revelations and other neat stuff that nosy me would love to dig through.

The Urim and Thummim, along with the breastplate and spectacles, was returned to Moroni after the translation was finished.

The seer stone is not in the First Presidency vault anymore. I’ve seen the vault during a private tour of the Church Administration Building in connection with a Church News article I wrote on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the construction of the building. 

In fact there’s nothing to speak of in the vault anymore. It’s all been catalogued and, as I recall, transferred to the archives of the Church. This would include the Council of Fifty minutes, which have now been published as part of the Joseph Smith Papers. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Posted (edited)
On 7/2/2019 at 8:12 AM, The Nehor said:

One of the seerstones is in the First Presidency vault. I believe it was Joseph Fielding Smith who took it out and showed it to the apostles.

That's interesting, do you have a source for that?  I'd love to read more about it.

Here's a statement by Joseph Fielding Smith acknowledging the church was in possession of one (and also confirming that it was referred to as "the Urim and Thummim"):

Quote

'The statement has been made that the Urim and Thummim was on the altar in the Manti Temple when that building was dedicated. The Urim and Thummim so spoken of, however, was the seer stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days. This seer stone is now in the possession of the Church.'"

 

On 7/2/2019 at 8:12 AM, The Nehor said:

The Urim and Thummim, along with the breastplate and spectacles, was returned to Moroni after the translation was finished

There's confusion regarding that.  Some stated they were never returned after the lost 116 pages incident.  Most witnesses state he only used the stone in the hat method to translate the Book of Mormon that was published.

Edited by ALarson

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9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

n fact there’s nothing to speak of in the vault anymore. It’s all been catalogued and, as I recall, transferred to the archives of the Church

The what’s in there? Seems kinda silly to have a vault at all haha

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2 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

The what’s in there? Seems kinda silly to have a vault at all haha

I am not sure now.  Way back when I was a kid, we took a field trip to Little Cottonwood Canyon to see the vault.  There was a huge amount of microfilm records of genealogical data.  Plus a large pool of pristine water filled with drippings filtering through the granite rock.  The giant vault door covering the cave opening was pretty impressive.

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9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

The seer stone is not in the First Presidency vault anymore. I’ve seen the vault during a private tour of the Church Administration Building in connection with a Church News article I wrote on the occasion of the 100th anniversary of the construction of the building. 

In fact there’s nothing to speak of in the vault anymore. It’s all been catalogued and, as I recall, transferred to the archives of the Church. This would include the Council of Fifty minutes, which have now been published as part of the Joseph Smith Papers. 

What about the top secret revelations? The rod of Aaron?

I guess I am cancelling my heist. :( 

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45 minutes ago, longview said:

I am not sure now.  Way back when I was a kid, we took a field trip to Little Cottonwood Canyon to see the vault.  There was a huge amount of microfilm records of genealogical data.  Plus a large pool of pristine water filled with drippings filtering through the granite rock.  The giant vault door covering the cave opening was pretty impressive.

I meant the first presidency vault, as far as I’m aware very few people are allowed in that peticular vault and it isn’t very big at all. Maybe walk in closet sized, it’s mostly a locked door within the bigger vault. 

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4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I meant the first presidency vault, as far as I’m aware very few people are allowed in that peticular vault and it isn’t very big at all. Maybe walk in closet sized, it’s mostly a locked door within the bigger vault. 

From Bro Godfrey's description, it was a vault directly off of the Church President's office.

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1 minute ago, SettingDogStar said:

I meant the first presidency vault, as far as I’m aware very few people are allowed in that peticular vault and it isn’t very big at all. Maybe walk in closet sized, it’s mostly a locked door within the bigger vault. 

I recommend reading this book Reflections of a Mormon Historian: Leonard J. Arrington on the New Mormon History.  He described how the church relics and historical documents were stashed in a private home across the street from the president's office building.

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2 minutes ago, longview said:

I recommend reading this book Reflections of a Mormon Historian: Leonard J. Arrington on the New Mormon History.  He described how the church relics and historical documents were stashed in a private home across the street from the president's office building.

“Church relics” 

Always makes me think they have some kind of Indiana Jones artifacts in there. Maybe the other seer stones?

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What about the top secret revelations? The rod of Aaron?

I guess I am cancelling my heist. :( 

😂 

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4 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I meant the first presidency vault, as far as I’m aware very few people are allowed in that peticular vault and it isn’t very big at all. Maybe walk in closet sized, it’s mostly a locked door within the bigger vault. 

I’ve been inside it. Looks like any garden-variety bank vault. In fact, that’s what it is. It was initially used to store cash. 

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4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

From Bro Godfrey's description, it was a vault directly off of the Church President's office.

It’s still there. I was in it less than two years ago. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

The what’s in there? Seems kinda silly to have a vault at all haha

It has outlived its usefulness, I suppose. 

I’ll never forget the moment when the secretary to the First Presidency, with an ever-so-subtle gleam in his eye, asked us, “Would you like to see the vault?” 

Not quite fathoming whether he was serious, and trying hard not to appear over eager, I swallowed hard and replied, “Um, yeah.”

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, longview said:

I am not sure now.  Way back when I was a kid, we took a field trip to Little Cottonwood Canyon to see the vault.  There was a huge amount of microfilm records of genealogical data.  Plus a large pool of pristine water filled with drippings filtering through the granite rock.  The giant vault door covering the cave opening was pretty impressive.

Not at all the same thing. What you have in mind is a huge complex hollowed out of solid granite in a mountain in Little Cottonwood Canyon (not far from my house, by the way). It is used to store microfilmed genealogical records and, more recently, digital files. 

The First Presidency vault was/is a bank-type vault in the Church Administration Building that, in times past, was used to secure confidential items but, as I have indicated, does not contain much of anything now. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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40 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It has outlived its usefulness, I suppose. 

I’ll never forget the moment when the secretary to the First Presidency, with an ever-so-subtle gleam in his eye, asked us, “Would you like to see the vault?” 

Not quite fathoming whether he was serious, and trying hard not to appear over eager, I swallowed hard and replied, “Um, yeah.”

I remember hearing this story from

my friend. He was in the Manti temple I believe and a temple worker asked him if he wanted to see something really special so of course he and his friend said yes! The worker took them down a long slew of hallways and inside a room with a cupboard or a drawer. All of a sudden he pulls out this long blade with a golden handle and shows the boys. Of course he offered no explanation but just said it used to have a special use.

He said he always grew up thinking it was a nephite blade or even the sword of Laban. However years later he’s pretty sure it was just the retired sword they used in the legacy endowments. 

I suppose the vault could be compared to that, filled with awe and mysteriousness but they’re really just mundane. 

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On 7/6/2019 at 5:00 PM, Burnside said:

Oliver Cowdery under the guidance of Joseph Smith (D&C 9:4) - the Lord called Oliver Cowdery to be scribe for Joseph Smith, the gift of Aaron mentioned in D&C 8, just as Aaron was a spokesman for Moses who was slow of speech, Oliver Cowdery was a scribe for Joseph Smith who was slow at writing, at that period of his life....

Oliver Cowdery wrote eight letters in 1834 in response to “Mormonism Unvailed” as noted in Joseph Smith Papers:

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48

Cowdery composed the letters to inform the Latter-day Saints of the history of their church, but he also wrote for the non-Mormon public...”  “Throughout the series of letters, he defended JS’s character and that of the Smith family, and his explicitly apologetic statements include apparent allusions to both 

Alexander Campbell’s Delusions(1832) and 

Eber Howe’s Mormonism Unvailed (1834)

(Sidney Rigdon and others left Campell’s flock near Kirtland and joined the Church, thus Campbell’s hostility, apparently.)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/50

“...write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites should have said, [“]Interpreter..”

Thus the Stone in a Hat was an anti-mormon lie and defended against as far back as 1834, yet here it’s claimed to be the truth in a Church video, a video created by BookofMormonCentral, the same organization that claims the Hill Cumorah is in Mexico which was contrived by the RLDS Church. Ha ha ha!

Thanks for those links.  I'd never read those eight letters (at least that I remember....maybe I've read excerpts from them).  Do you think this explains why his narrative seems to be different from all other eyewitness accounts regarding the use of the stone in the hat translation method?

Here are some of the statements that I've collected:

From Emma:

  Quote
“Now the first that my husband translated, was translated by use of the Urim and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he [my husband] used a small stone, not exactly black, but was rather a dark color.”

 

If the above is true, then the Book of Mormon we have today was translated entirely from the seer stone (later referred to as the Urim and Thummim).  Are there any statements from eyewitnesses that saw Joseph Smith using the spectacles and breast plate after he translated the lost 116 pages?

 

Here are some statements by eyewitnesses:

Emma:

  Quote
"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."

 

 

David Whitmer:

  Quote
"By fervent prayer and by otherwise humbling himself, the prophet, however, again found favor, and was presented with a strange, oval-shaped, chocolate-colored stone, about the size of an egg, only more flat, which, it was promised should serve the same purpose as the missing urim and thummim. ... With this stone all the present Book of Mormon was translated."

 

 

David Whitmer again:

  Quote
"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."

 

 

Martin Harris:

  Quote
"By aid of the Seer Stone, sentences would appear and were read by the prophet and written by martin, and when finished he would say 'written' and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."

 

 

Michael Morse (Emma's brother-in-law):

  Quote
"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon, he, (Morse), had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes - Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."

 

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Posted (edited)

I know the other thread on this topic is now locked, but did anyone answer the questions:

When did the inaccurate narrative begin being told with no mention of Joseph putting a stone in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon?  Anyone know?

And:

Do the current missionary discussions teach about this method of translation?

Edited by JulieM
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17 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I know the other thread on this topic is now locked, but did anyone answer the questions:

When did the inaccurate narrative begin being told with no mention of Joseph putting a stone in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon?  Anyone know?

And:

Do the current missionary discussions teach about this method of translation?

In Preach My Gospel in the first discussion under The Book of Mormon it says "Joseph Smith was directed by a heavenly messenger named Moroni to a hill where gold plates had lain hidden for centuries. These gold plates contained the writings of prophets giving an account of God’s dealings with some of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Joseph Smith translated the contents of these plates by the power of God."

Not very detailed and they just use a variation of the quote by Joseph when he wouldn't exactly say how he accomplished the translation. No other specifics are found in the book to my knowledge. However directly next to this quote is this classic photo (it actually appears twice in PMG).

Image result for scripture joseph translating the plate

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16 minutes ago, JulieM said:

I know the other thread on this topic is now locked, but did anyone answer the questions:

When did the inaccurate narrative begin being told with no mention of Joseph putting a stone in his hat to translate the Book of Mormon?  Anyone know?

I wonder if it actually began with Oliver Cowdery?  He's the only eye witness that I can find who avoids mentioning the seer stone in Joseph's hat method (iirc).

It appears that even the editorial notes add some insight into his more apologetic versions of church history:

Quote

 

In the first letter, Oliver Cowdery recounted his experiences with JS beginning when the two first met in April 1829. The letter includes an account of the vision he and JS had of John the Baptist, who gave them the authority to baptize. After composing this letter, but before its publication, Cowdery developed a new history-writing plan: he decided that in subsequent letters he would relate the “full history of the rise of the church,” beginning with JS’s early life and visions. As editor of the Messenger and Advocate, Cowdery prefaced the published version of the first letter with an explanation (also transcribed into the history) of the new plan. Although he had no firsthand knowledge of church history prior to April 1829, Cowdery assured his readers that “our brother J. Smith Jr. has offered to assist us. Indeed, there are many items connected with the fore part of this subject that render his labor indispensible.” Some passages in the ensuing narrative seem to have been related to Cowdery by JS, since Cowdery recounts events in which only JS participated.

Cowdery composed the letters to inform the Latter-day Saints of the history of their church, but he also wrote for the non-Mormon public. Employing florid romantic language, frequent scriptural allusions, and much dramatic detail, he clearly intended to present a rhetorically impressive account of early Mormon history.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/48

 

 

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1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

In Preach My Gospel in the first discussion under The Book of Mormon it says "Joseph Smith was directed by a heavenly messenger named Moroni to a hill where gold plates had lain hidden for centuries. These gold plates contained the writings of prophets giving an account of God’s dealings with some of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Joseph Smith translated the contents of these plates by the power of God."

Not very detailed and they just use a variation of the quote by Joseph when he wouldn't exactly say how he accomplished the translation. No other specifics are found in the book to my knowledge. However directly next to this quote is this classic photo (it actually appears twice in PMG).

Image result for scripture joseph translating the plate

Well, that’s a bit disappointing, but let’s hope they make some changes (at least in the artwork!).  As someone posted earlier though: “Baby steps”.

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Well, that’s a bit disappointing, but let’s hope they make some changes (at least in the artwork!).  As someone posted earlier though: “Baby steps”.

The basic description works but I think they should probably include some footnotes on questions posed by investigators. Nearly every person we taught had some form of “anti Mormon” ideas and asked honest questions. Usually it was about treasure hunting/polygamy/endowment stuff and it would have been nice to have a good resource to explain. We did a pretty good job but the internet has given everyone the ability to google Mormons and find out all the interesting stuff really fast. Missionaries should be prepped a little better I think, or maybe not.

Then again saying “I know Joseph was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true” again and again without actual answering questions seems to work sometimes (guilty) 😂

Edit: the essays are a good member resource but can sometimes be a bit much for an investigator looking for a quick answer. Plus someone not familiar with any Mormon history could quickly get a little lost with names, places, and timelines. 

Edited by SettingDogStar
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