Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
The Nehor

The Seer Stone Cover Up Finally Exposed and You Will Never Believe Who Did It

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, snowflake said:

Any idea where Joseph's seer stones are now, or the spectacles and breastplate?

The stone is in the LDS Archives or Historical Dept.  The Nephite interpreters (spectacles) and breastplate were taken back by the Angel Moroni.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, snowflake said:

Any idea where Joseph's seer stones are now, or the spectacles and breastplate?

The Gold Plates were taken back to a cave in the Hill Comorah by Joseph Smith. Maybe that is where the Urim and Thummim, breastplate and spectacles are.  In the cave there were many other records (plates), a couple of wagon load of them.  The sword of Laban was there also. In fact, the first time Joseph and Oliver  Cowdery went there the sword of Laban hung upon the wall; but when they went again it had been taken down and laid upon the table across the gold plates; it was unsheathed, and on it was written these words: "This sword will never be sheathed again until the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of our God and his Christ." 

I think it is a good thing the Church bought the hill Comorah and the surrounding property.  It wouldn't be good if non-believers stumbled upon that cave.

http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/rel341/Hill Comorah Cave.html

http://www.moronisamerica.com/cumorahs-cave/

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1360&context=jbms

https://archive.bookofmormoncentral.org/content/cumorah’s-cave

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

.........................................

The Urim and Thummim, along with the breastplate and spectacles, was returned to Moroni after the translation was finished.

The Nephite interpreters (spectacles) have sometimes been incorrectly termed "Urim & Thummim."

Share this post


Link to post
38 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Ah, I was confused about which color came from where. Man, with all the stones Joseph was just running across as a kid you'd think I could find one pretty easy haha

Believe me, I tried.

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, sunstoned said:

I think it is a good thing the Church bought the hill Comorah and the surrounding property.  It wouldn't be good if non-believers stumbled upon that cave.

I've always joked I wanted to drive up to the property with a backhoe and just start digging fast as I could before someone stopped me. Maybe have one or two guys do it so that we can't all be stopped at once haha

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, The Nehor said:

Believe me, I tried.

Like prayed for one? Or just grabbed rocks hoping to find one?

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, SettingDogStar said:

I've always joked I wanted to drive up to the property with a backhoe and just start digging fast as I could before someone stopped me. Maybe have one or two guys do it so that we can't all be stopped at once haha

I suspect the cave is elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, SettingDogStar said:

Like prayed for one? Or just grabbed rocks hoping to find one?

Both.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

.................................

I think it is a good thing the Church bought the hill Comorah and the surrounding property.  It wouldn't be good if non-believers stumbled upon that cave.

..........................

I don't agree at all.  It would be much better if non-believers stumbled upon that imaginary cave.  Because no one would believe it if a believer said it.  Nibley used to speak of such facts as having "Gentile respectability."  The bias and prejudice against Latter-day Saints is so strong that only when non-LDS discover a fact is it taken seriously.

Edited by Robert F. Smith

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect the cave is elsewhere.

Probably, but we'll never know till we check! 

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't agree at all.  It would be much better in non-believers stumbled upon that imaginary cave.  Because no one would believe it if a believer said it.  Nibley used to speak of such facts as having "Gentile respectability."  The bias and prejudice against Latter-day Saints is so strong that only when non-LDS discover a fact is it taken seriously.

Why do you think the cave is imaginary?

I expect based on Book of Mormon prophecy that documents will be found validating much of the New Testament and possibly the Book of Mormon. That will be a sign the end is near.

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It would be much better if non-believers stumbled upon that imaginary cave.  Because no one would believe it if a believer said it.

I mean if it's an actual cave in the Cumorah here in New York it doesn't really matter who runs upon it. If the gold plates are there along with others then anyone and their dog could go check and see them. Since it's actual physical evidence (and at that point no longer parallel-mania) then it wouldn't matter much who found it as long as they were probably tested as authentic.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The stone is in the LDS Archives or Historical Dept.  The Nephite interpreters (spectacles) and breastplate were taken back by the Angel Moroni.

Any thoughts as to if the current "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" uses the stone and if not.....why?

Share this post


Link to post
15 hours ago, JAHS said:

So when Joseph returned the plates for the last time to the cave in the Hill Cumorah did he also return the Urim and Thumim at that time?

Does the church still teach that there is a cave in the Hill Cumorah?  Is it still there with all the other gold plates or did it disappear?

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Any thoughts as to if the current "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" uses the stone and if not.....why?

Very interesting question, but I haven' a clue . . .  :pirate:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, california boy said:

Does the church still teach that there is a cave in the Hill Cumorah?  Is it still there with all the other gold plates or did it disappear?

It is not a common teaching. The account we have of the vision are (I believe) all second hand. Geologically a cave in Cumorah would probably require a miracle not to collapse on itself. I, speaking only for myself, believe the cave exists and that the visions were real but am not convinced it is in Cumorah. If you buy the Mesoamerican model of the Book of Mormon it would probably be where the Book of Mormon took place. If you believe it happened in the United States it could be much closer.

I suspect it will be revealed in good time.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
53 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Any thoughts as to if the current "Prophet, Seer and Revelator" uses the stone and if not.....why?

Because they do not need it. It is not magic. It can be used as an aid to revelation but Joseph Smith outgrew it. Joseph Smith started with heavenly visitor, moved on to seerstones and Urim and Thummim, and finally could just dictate revelation. While Joseph Smith was a spiritual prodigy, one of those souls that comes about once a millennia, the later prophets had a much more rigorous training program before assuming office. It is unlikely they will need them as much.

That being said if I was the Prophet I would like to keep it on my desk as a paperweight and probably glance or concentrate on it when I need revelation just to see if it worked/helped. I think other prophets have used objects to help. President Hinckley self-reported that he would sometimes look into Brigham’s face when facing a problem (can’t remember if he had a bust or a painting or a photo) and ask what he should do. Of course he said President Young would tell him it is no longer his day so maybe it did not work that well. ;) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I mean if it's an actual cave in the Cumorah here in New York it doesn't really matter who runs upon it. If the gold plates are there along with others then anyone and their dog could go check and see them. Since it's actual physical evidence (and at that point no longer parallel-mania) then it wouldn't matter much who found it as long as they were probably tested as authentic.

 

34 minutes ago, california boy said:

Does the church still teach that there is a cave in the Hill Cumorah?  Is it still there with all the other gold plates or did it disappear?

Was there ever a cave in that hill near Manchester, which people now call "Cumorah"?  There was always only one Cumorah, and that was the final place of battle for the Nephites & Lamanites, also the final place of battle for the Jaredites (but called by them Ramah), and it has nothing to do with that moraine near Manchester.

The Book of Mormon plates and other paraphernalia were placed by Moroni in a stone box in that hill near Manchester.  Moroni had over twenty years to get to that place and prepare the site.  Maybe there was a cave or caves back in his home country, from which he had to flee.  That very distant Hill Cumorah was the repository of the bulk of the records kept by Mormon as he did his editorial work (Mormon 6:6, Ether 15:11), but Mormon gave the final product, the Book of Mormon plates, to his son Moroni.  He did not leave them in the Hill Cumorah, in the likely cave complex, with the other records.

Mormon 6:6 "I...hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

Ether 15:11 "the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred."

John L. Sorenson identifies Ramah-Cumorah as likely Cerro el Vigía, an outlier in the Tuxtlas range of mountains in coastal Veracruz, Mexico.[1]  Archeologists might want to search for a cave complex in that vicinity.

[1] Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 142-143, fig. 7.2.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Was there ever a cave in that hill near Manchester, which people now call "Cumorah"?  There was always only one Cumorah, and that was the final place of battle for the Nephites & Lamanites, also the final place of battle for the Jaredites (but called by them Ramah), and it has nothing to do with that moraine near Manchester.

The Book of Mormon plates and other paraphernalia were placed by Moroni in a stone box in that hill near Manchester.  Moroni had over twenty years to get to that place and prepare the site.  Maybe there was a cave or caves back in his home country, from which he had to flee.  That very distant Hill Cumorah was the repository of the bulk of the records kept by Mormon as he did his editorial work (Mormon 6:6, Ether 15:11), but Mormon gave the final product, the Book of Mormon plates, to his son Moroni.  He did not leave them in the Hill Cumorah, in the likely cave complex, with the other records.

Mormon 6:6 "I...hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

Ether 15:11 "the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred."

John L. Sorenson identifies Ramah-Cumorah as likely Cerro el Vigía, an outlier in the Tuxtlas range of mountains in coastal Veracruz, Mexico.[1]  Archeologists might want to search for a cave complex in that vicinity.

[1] Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 142-143, fig. 7.2.

I wonder if CB had in mind the cave described by Brigham Young (in an anecdote which he attributes to Oliver Cowdery).  See https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Is_there_a_cave_in_the_Hill_Cumorah_containing_the_Nephite_records%3F

Thanks,

-Smac

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

While I agree Robert generally about location it is possible and even likely the other records or at least some of them were moved. After Moroni finished the Book of Mormon (the sub book, not the whole thing) he then was led to summarize Ether’s account so he would have had to have access to it and he also recorded the visions of the Brother of Jared so he would need that too. In truth if we had the whole of the sealed portion the whole text should probably be called the Book of Moroni as he wrote more of it then Mormon did. Moroni would also have needed access to other records for his contributions at the end (his father’s letters and his father’s sermon). So there was a chance he went back to get more or took some of the records with him elsewhere.

Edited by The Nehor
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, JAHS said:

Most people assume the Urim and Thumim was returned to the angel with the plates, but I can't find a contemporary source for this fact. 

 

The Brown seer stoned is talked about in the October 2015 Ensign with a photo. It's interesting that the only other mentioning of it for a long time was in a 1974 Children's Friend article.
Otherwise you have to dig into the Journals and Church history volumes to read about it. 
 

I was not speaking of the “Seer Stone”, but the  U&T described in the Old Testament. Not explained in the video, Joseph had it in Nauvoo, not long before his death, as described it in detail by his Mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and many others. While in Nauvoo, Hyrum asked Joseph to put down on paper, D&C 132, Joseph was uneasy about doing so. But Hyrum wanted on paper, saying he would take it to Emma himself, and told Joesph he would go get the U&T, but Joseph said that there was no need, as he had it via his memory, because he received in in the 1830’’s, maybe as far back to 1833, as I pointed out already, he was afaid that he would be killed. As described in the video, the U&T was described in the OT, as an item, or “Instrument”, what was worn around the next. The U&T, had a form of glasses, who the Prophets looked thought though is also depicted the video. But more interesting, are “Seer Stones”, on the “breastplate,  as all Prophets, forever are, “Seers”.I had to make an edit, because the way I must type, makes it easy to hit the wrong button, which sometimes can shorten my comments, or erase them all together. Here is hoping this post is all there. 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I was not speaking of the “Seer but the U&T described in the Old Testament, as  to what Joseph have in Nauvoo, not long before his death, and described in detail by his Mother, Lucy Mack Smith, and many others. 

He didn’t seem to possess the Urim and Thummin as described in the OT. The High priest in that temple had a two rocks that would be placed in little “pockets” on the breast plate. There’s some evidence that they were used in casting lots, to divine yes or no answers from the Lord. 

The U&T that Joseph had were the stones given to the Brother of Jared. They were fastened into spectacles and attached to a breastplate. They worked differently then the ones Aaron had, but we aren’t sure exactly how the operated. Though the common narrative was they disappeared or were given to an angel after translation. After the Book of Mormon is published you don’t hear any members of the church describing Joseph using the spectacles again.

Edited by SettingDogStar

Share this post


Link to post
24 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Archeologists might want to search for a cave complex in that vicinity.

 

That’s what I always say! If someone really thinks they’ve identified Cumorah or Ramah just dig! No plates and you’ve likely not found the right hill. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, SettingDogStar said:

That’s what I always say! If someone really thinks they’ve identified Cumorah or Ramah just dig! No plates and you’ve likely not found the right hill. 

You cannot just dig up hills.

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't agree at all.  It would be much better if non-believers stumbled upon that imaginary cave.  Because no one would believe it if a believer said it.  Nibley used to speak of such facts as having "Gentile respectability."  The bias and prejudice against Latter-day Saints is so strong that only when non-LDS discover a fact is it taken seriously.

There are a lot of religious fanatics out there that make some outrageous claims.  These supposed biased and prejudiced people, whoever they are, are probably equating seers stones and plates that no-one can see today to the outrageous religious claims made by the less respectable.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...