The Seer Stone Cover Up Finally Exposed and You Will Never Believe Who Did It

[clarkgoble]

16 hours ago, JAHS said:

So when Joseph returned the plates for the last time to the cave in the Hill Cumorah did he also return the Urim and Thumim at that time?

I don't think we know for sure. Also the cave in Cumorah was likely not in Cumorah I believe. Most of the accounts of the cave are pretty late and problematic. (IMO) Brigham's statement was 1877 and he was apparently recounting what Oliver Cowdery had said. There were a few earlier accounts -1855 for vague Horne account that is recounting a story told by Phelps that was told from Hyrum Smith and a year later in Heber Kimball although the source there isn't clear. The rest are in the late 1860's or thereafter and are all tale of a tale type reports. You can find a full discussion of all the accounts in "Cumorah’s Cave." Given the distance from the first hearing and the fact that most are third hand we should be careful with them.

The problem with taking in literally is that the hill in New York is made by a glacier and thus not apt to have caves. (There was one cave discovered there about a decade or two ago but most think it was man made from the prohibition era) So either the cave was really somewhere else or was purely visionary. (Which is what critics are apt to say) Since Moroni had taken the plates and spectacles away a few times, it's not hard to presume he could taken them to somewhere else. If you're going to buy into angels appearing in a room then clearly you have to have a technology of a wormhole like transportation. In which case all bets are off for where the cave was.

Getting back to the spectacles, as I said there's not even agreement over whether Joseph got them back after the 116 pages led to Moroni taking the plates. I think he did, but the accounts of Cowdery's scribal works don't make it clear. Charles Anthon indicates Martin Harris had told him that Joseph had stopped using the spectacles because of their size. While Cowdery says the translation was done with the spectacles most other accounts of his period in the translation say only a seer stone was used. Although there's some suggestion that Joseph might have popped one of the stones out of its holder and used it as he did his seer stone. There are indirect accounts of Joseph putting the spectacles in his hat, but of course that's impossible given their size if the stones were still in their eye glass like device.

It's difficult since fairly early on members ceased differentiating the seer stones and the spectacles. By 1833 we have the spectacles being called the Urim and Thummim. More recent work by Don Bradley suggests that association may have been in the 116 pages narrative as well. Fairly soon thereafter the seer stones were also called Urim and Thummim. Certainly by the time of the relevant passages in the D&C where seer stones and the Urim and Thummim have come to have a more cosmic sense that identification is solidified. Again Don Bradley has discovered that many elements of this go back to the 116 pages in a temple context. So the expansion of say D&C 130 into the endowment actually is set before the origin of the Church in some ways. (D&C 130 is 1843 although the endowment starts in 1842)

None of the cave narratives mention the spectacles which is interesting on its own.

Edited July 3, 2019 by clarkgoble

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, Exiled said:

There are a lot of religious fanatics out there that make some outrageous claims.  These supposed biased and prejudiced people, whoever they are, are probably equating seers stones and plates that no-one can see today to the outrageous religious claims made by the less respectable.

Probably.  

[Robert F. Smith]

41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if CB had in mind the cave described by Brigham Young (in an anecdote which he attributes to Oliver Cowdery).  See https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Is_there_a_cave_in_the_Hill_Cumorah_containing_the_Nephite_records%3F ................

Rumors upon rumors, visions upon visions, ....  

[Robert F. Smith]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

While I agree Robert generally about location it is possible and even likely the other records or at least some of them were moved. After Moroni finished the Book of Mormon (the sub book, not the whole thing) he then was led to summarize Ether’s account so he would have had to have access to it and he also recorded the visions of the Brother of Jared so he would need that too. In truth if we had the whole of the sealed portion the whole text should probably be called the Book of Moroni as he wrote more of it then Mormon did. Moroni would also have needed access to other records for his contributions at the end (his father’s letters and his father’s sermon). So there was a chance he went back to get more or took some of the records with him elsewhere.

I have no problem with any of that, but all tales about a cave or caves with plates and such should be relegated to the original Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite home country.

[The Nehor]

26 minutes ago, Exiled said:

There are a lot of religious fanatics out there that make some outrageous claims.  These supposed biased and prejudiced people, whoever they are, are probably equating seers stones and plates that no-one can see today to the outrageous religious claims made by the less respectable.

And to be fair we have our own fanatics who make absurd archaeological and scientific claims.

[smac97]

15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rumors upon rumors, visions upon visions, ....  

Indeed.  I have never heard this story taught in Church.  I encountered it years ago when I asked my father what had happened to the Sword of Laban.  He responded by pulling this story from his "Infobase" CD and sending it to me.  I found it interesting, but only in a I-can-take-it-or-leave-it way.

Thanks,

-Smac

[longview]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The Nephite interpreters (spectacles) have sometimes been incorrectly termed "Urim & Thummim."

That anachronism thing again?  Did not the Lord give several usage/definitions for the term?  Should it not be considered a general category describing different devices that provide revelation, directions, exalted abodes (see below), power to translate, power to access information about higher kingdoms, etc?

D&C 130:
7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

D&C 17:  <the heading to Section 17 states that JS received this revelation in answer to their questions in July 1829 thru through the Urim and Thummim [most likely the spectacles given to the brother of Jared]>
1 Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness <the Liahona>, on the borders of the Red Sea.

D&C 10:1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have no problem with any of that, but all tales about a cave or caves with plates and such should be relegated to the original Jaredite-Nephite-Lamanite home country.

Probably, unless Moroni took a lot of trips.

[SettingDogStar]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Indeed.  I have never heard this story taught in Church.  I encountered it years ago when I asked my father what had happened to the Sword of Laban.  He responded by pulling this story from his "Infobase" CD and sending it to me.  I found it interesting, but only in a I-can-take-it-or-leave-it way.

Thanks,

-Smac

I like the idea but all the sources I have seen are second hand and so perhaps they’re more a church history folklore then anything else.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Was there ever a cave in that hill near Manchester, which people now call "Cumorah"?  There was always only one Cumorah, and that was the final place of battle for the Nephites & Lamanites, also the final place of battle for the Jaredites (but called by them Ramah), and it has nothing to do with that moraine near Manchester.

The Book of Mormon plates and other paraphernalia were placed by Moroni in a stone box in that hill near Manchester.  Moroni had over twenty years to get to that place and prepare the site.  Maybe there was a cave or caves back in his home country, from which he had to flee.  That very distant Hill Cumorah was the repository of the bulk of the records kept by Mormon as he did his editorial work (Mormon 6:6, Ether 15:11), but Mormon gave the final product, the Book of Mormon plates, to his son Moroni.  He did not leave them in the Hill Cumorah, in the likely cave complex, with the other records.

Mormon 6:6 "I...hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."

Ether 15:11 "the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred."

John L. Sorenson identifies Ramah-Cumorah as likely Cerro el Vigía, an outlier in the Tuxtlas range of mountains in coastal Veracruz, Mexico.[1]  Archeologists might want to search for a cave complex in that vicinity.

[1] Sorenson, Mormon’s Codex, 142-143, fig. 7.2.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if CB had in mind the cave described by Brigham Young (in an anecdote which he attributes to Oliver Cowdery).  See https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Question:_Is_there_a_cave_in_the_Hill_Cumorah_containing_the_Nephite_records%3F

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks to both of you for answering my question.  I thought that at one time there was a claim that the Hill Cumorah in NY was the location for the cave.  Both answered shed light on what I wanted to know.

[JAHS]

26 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I don't think we know for sure. Also the cave in Cumorah was likely not in Cumorah I believe. Most of the accounts of the cave are pretty late and problematic. (IMO) Brigham's statement was 1877 and he was apparently recounting what Oliver Cowdery had said. There were a few earlier accounts -1855 for vague Horne account that is recounting a story told by Phelps that was told from Hyrum Smith and a year later in Heber Kimball although the source there isn't clear. The rest are in the late 1860's or thereafter and are all tale of a tale type reports. You can find a full discussion of all the accounts in "Cumorah’s Cave." Given the distance from the first hearing and the fact that most are third hand we should be careful with them.

The problem with taking in literally is that the hill in New York is made by a glacier and thus not apt to have caves. (There was one cave discovered there about a decade or two ago but most think it was man made from the prohibition era) So either the cave was really somewhere else or was purely visionary. (Which is what critics are apt to say) Since Moroni had taken the plates and spectacles away a few times, it's not hard to presume he could taken them to somewhere else. If you're going to buy into angels appearing in a room then clearly you have to have a technology of a wormhole like transportation. In which case all bets are off for where the cave was.

Getting back to the spectacles, as I said there's not even agreement over whether Joseph got them back after the 116 pages led to Moroni taking the plates. I think he did, but the accounts of Cowdery's scribal works don't make it clear. Charles Anthon indicates Martin Harris had told him that Joseph had stopped using the spectacles because of their size. While Cowdery says the translation was done with the spectacles most other accounts of his period in the translation say only a seer stone was used. Although there's some suggestion that Joseph might have popped one of the stones out of its holder and used it as he did his seer stone. There are indirect accounts of Joseph putting the spectacles in his hat, but of course that's impossible given their size if the stones were still in their eye glass like device.

It's difficult since fairly early on members ceased differentiating the seer stones and the spectacles. By 1833 we have the spectacles being called the Urim and Thummim. More recent work by Don Bradley suggests that association may have been in the 116 pages narrative as well. Fairly soon thereafter the seer stones were also called Urim and Thummim. Certainly by the time of the relevant passages in the D&C where seer stones and the Urim and Thummim have come to have a more cosmic sense that identification is solidified. Again Don Bradley has discovered that many elements of this go back to the 116 pages in a temple context. So the expansion of say D&C 130 into the endowment actually is set before the origin of the Church in some ways. (D&C 130 is 1843 although the endowment starts in 1842)

None of the cave narratives mention the spectacles which is interesting on its own.

I am thinking that the early saints and we as well might improperly call the hill in New York, Cumorah.  Moroni  buried the "few plates" (Mormon 6:6) his father Mormon gave him in a hill somewhere. In the scriptures, Moroni never specified the name of the hill where he buried the "few plates" that he had. He only said that he hid them up in the earth.(Ether 4:3). Maybe it was the hill in New York but not the actual hill Cumorah/Ramah which could be somewhere else.
I have always had a hard time believing the cave story actually happened, unless it was in a vision as you suggested.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I am thinking that the early saints and we as well might improperly call the hill in New York, Cumorah.  Moroni  buried the "few plates" (Mormon 6:6) his father Mormon gave him in a hill somewhere. In the scriptures, Moroni never specified the name of the hill where he buried the "few plates" that he had. He only said that he hid them up in the earth.(Ether 4:3). Maybe it was the hill in New York but not the actual hill Cumorah/Ramah which could be somewhere else.
I have always had a hard time believing the cave story actually happened, unless it was in a vision as you suggested.

I thought in all the accounts it was a vision.....or teleportation. I do not remember an account where they walked to a hill and went into a cave.

[mrmarklin]

I had heard about the cave story in the past and was inclined to believe it.  But having read the wonderful article by Mr Cameron Packer in the link provided, I think it is apocryphal.  At best, it's a recounting of a vision or even a dream.

Edited July 3, 2019 by mrmarklin

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 7/1/2019 at 10:08 PM, The Nehor said:

 

Please look at my post on page two, it was meant to be here on the OP.  But my fumbling fingers posted it elsewhere. If you have the time, or which to see it. 

Edited July 3, 2019 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[clarkgoble]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Regarding Joseph's seer stones, I've shared on this forum before Kenneth Godfrey's experience in the First Presidency vault with Pres Harold B. Lee. When he asked Pres Lee what was in a paper shopping bag, Pres Lee said it was a seer stone; this was so that he could carry it to and from home easier. Bro Godfrey said he didn't know which possibility amused him more: 1) that Pres Lee transported a seer stone in a shopping bag or 2) that Pres Lee was willing to have him on in that way and without any indication of making a joke.

I've had a few people indicate seer stone use by the brethren. However since it was always third hand, despite them being in a place to know, I've never taken it too seriously. (One Stake President said he was in a solemn assembly when it was mentioned under Hinckley) Given that Joseph's use tapered off it's hard to see them as essential. Joseph gave his white stone to Wilford Woodruff as I recall. (Don't have time to double check but I think that's right) While the brown stone remains more significant its use definitely peters out. In early Utah you have a seer stone revival mainly due to folk magic practices making a comeback. First with the first generation of immigrants and then later with Spiritualism in the second wave of immigrants particularly from England. (And the rise of the Godbeites) With the first wave you have strong pushback by Brigham primarily due to competing authority. Some see this in gender framing due to it being a way where women lacking formal authority could have power. There's a paper in Women and Authority on seerstones but I've had several people tell me it's problematic historically for various reasons. I've not gone through the primary sources so I don't really know that much about seerstone use in early Utah beyond that paper.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I thought in all the accounts it was a vision.....or teleportation. I do not remember an account where they walked to a hill and went into a cave.

There's also the tradition that the spirit world is all around us but on a different "plane." Without commenting on that folk doctrine I'd just say it would account for many of these sorts of phenomena.

Edited July 3, 2019 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

11 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I've had a few people indicate seer stone use by the brethren. However since it was always third hand, despite them being in a place to know, I've never taken it too seriously. (One Stake President said he was in a solemn assembly when it was mentioned under Hinckley) Given that Joseph's use tapered off it's hard to see them as essential. Joseph gave his white stone to Wilford Woodruff as I recall. (Don't have time to double check but I think that's right) While the brown stone remains more significant its use definitely peters out. In early Utah you have a seer stone revival mainly due to folk magic practices making a comeback. First with the first generation of immigrants and then later with Spiritualism in the second wave of immigrants particularly from England. (And the rise of the Godbeites) With the first wave you have strong pushback by Brigham primarily due to competing authority. Some see this in gender framing due to it being a way where women lacking formal authority could have power. There's a paper in Women and Authority on seerstones but I've had several people tell me it's problematic historically for various reasons. I've not gone through the primary sources so I don't really know that much about seerstone use in early Utah beyond that paper.

There's also the tradition that the spirit world is all around us but on a different "plane." Without commenting on that folk doctrine I'd just say it would account for many of these sorts of phenomena.

Yeah, and I am not sure I would count it as folk doctrine. Brigham Young taught and I believe Wilford Woodruff did too.

[clarkgoble]

Just now, The Nehor said:

Yeah, and I am not sure I would count it as folk doctrine. Brigham Young taught and I believe Wilford Woodruff did too.

Well by folk doctrine I include comments by general authorities not backed up with revelation. To say something is folk doctrine isn't to say it is wrong. It's just to say it's not coming along formal lines. GA statements blur that somewhat since you could argue they are authority but their authority for new doctrine is actually fairly constrained. So you have all sorts of crazy 19th century teachings that either are weird interpretations of scripture or picking up broader American folk doctrine. Some are more problematic such as Adam/God given that it was quasi-authoritative yet pretty quickly rejected and thus typically seen as pushed back into folk doctrine.

[Exiled]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Probably.  

Robert, do you think most if not all who don't believe in mormonism don't because of bias and/or prejudice?  For those who don't believe because they haven't been exposed to it yet, is it possible in your mind for a rational person, with as little bias and prejudice as you seemingly have, to be presented with mormonism, study it through and through, and still not believe?  It just seems that the sweeping bias and prejudice claim is too much.

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I thought in all the accounts it was a vision.....or teleportation. I do not remember an account where they walked to a hill and went into a cave.

The accounts in this article (below) seem to imply that they actually went to and into a cave in the hill Cumorah.
Cumorah's Cave

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I like the idea but all the sources I have seen are second hand and so perhaps they’re more a church history folklore then anything else.

Speaking of folklore here's a couple interesting ones regarding the stone box the plates were in.  

Martin Harris described a money digging incident that took place after Joseph found the plates. Harris is quoted as saying:

"Three of us took some tools to go to the hill and hunt for more boxes of gold or something, and indeed we found a stone box. We got quite excited about it and dug carefully around it, and by some unseen power it slipped back into the hill. We stood there and looked at it and one of us took a crow-bar and tried to drive it through the lid and hold it, but the bar glanced off and broke off one of the corners of the box. Sometime that box will be found and you will see the corner broken off, and then you will know I have told you the truth" ("The Last Testimony of Martin Harris," by E. Cecil McGavin in The Instructor, October, 1930, Vol. 65, No. 10, pp. 587-589).

In a series of interviews a Mormon writer named Edward Stevenson, who was acquainted with Joseph Smith relates what he was told by an old man living near the Hill Cumorah:

"Questioning him closely he stated that he had seen some good-sized flat stones that had rolled down and lay near the bottom of the hill. This had occurred after the contents of the box had been removed and these stones were doubtless the ones that formerly composed the box. I felt a strong desire to see these ancient relics and told him I would be much pleased to have him inform me where they were to be found. He stated that they had long since been taken away."
(REMINISCENCES OF JOSEPH THE PROPHET, And the Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon by Elder Edward Stevenson, 1893 Salt Lake City, Utah)

[Robert F. Smith]

47 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Robert, do you think most if not all who don't believe in mormonism don't because of bias and/or prejudice?  For those who don't believe because they haven't been exposed to it yet, is it possible in your mind for a rational person, with as little bias and prejudice as you seemingly have, to be presented with mormonism, study it through and through, and still not believe?  It just seems that the sweeping bias and prejudice claim is too much.

Seems to me that everyone has biases and prejudices to some extent or other, even if they don't realize it, and I have spent my life among people who are not LDS, and who are quite happy with where they are.  I have no problem with that and love the diversity.  Moreover, I have had ex-Mormon friends who were funny and gracious, who sometimes gave me a hard time, but most of whom were not overbearing.  Of course, I could always hold my own in a frank discussion.  Not everyone can.

Take Sandra Tanner, for example.  We always had nice discussions with never a harsh word, even though we completely disagree on certain matters of faith.  This was not true of everyone.  Some ex-Mormons were so angry that it was nearly impossible to carry on any sort of reasonable discussion.  The invective was considerable and very sad.  We have seen such people banned from this board.  It wasn't that they disagreed with someone, but that their incivility and nastiness got in the way.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, longview said:

That anachronism thing again?  Did not the Lord give several usage/definitions for the term?  Should it not be considered a general category describing different devices that provide revelation, directions, exalted abodes (see below), power to translate, power to access information about higher kingdoms, etc?

That's fine as long as we don't confuse the biblical Urim & Thummim with the Nephite interpreters.  One is strictly Israelite-biblical, the other is strictly Jaredie-Nephite.  They need not even look alike.  Making them interchangeable can only lead to confusion.

4 hours ago, longview said:

D&C 130:
7 But they reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things for their glory are manifest, past, present, and future, and are continually before the Lord.
8 The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim.
9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.

Rev 4:6.  Astrophysicists know of just such diamond-like crystalline stars -- and even planets like diamonds:

Malvin A. Ruderman, “Solid Stars,” Scientific American , 224/2 (February, 1971):24-31.

George Musser, “Frozen Stars,” Scientific American, July 7, 2003, online at http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=frozen-stars .

Ben Hirschler, “Astronomers discover planet made of diamond,” Reuters, Aug 25, 2011, online at http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/25/us-planet-diamond-idUSTRE77O69A20110825  , 

4 hours ago, longview said:

10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;
11 And a white stone is given to each of those who come into the celestial kingdom, whereon is a new name written, which no man knoweth save he that receiveth it. The new name is the key word.

Compare "Cephas, which is, by interpretation, a seer, or a stone" (cf. Gen 49:24), with the early Coptic Gnostic Gospel According to Thomas, Logion 19, "If you become disciples to me and hear my words, these stones will minister to you" (Nag Hammadi Codex II Labib, 84:19-21 = II,2, 36:19-21).  H. Nibley pointed out in class that Arabic kifa is a green, transparent stone used for divination (cognate with Aramaic kefa = NT Greek Cephas, "Stone," which of course is the name given by Jesus to Peter/ Simon) 

4 hours ago, longview said:

D&C 17:  <the heading to Section 17 states that JS received this revelation in answer to their questions in July 1829 thru through the Urim and Thummim [most likely the spectacles given to the brother of Jared]>
1 Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness <the Liahona>, on the borders of the Red Sea.

D&C 10:1 Now, behold, I say unto you, that because you delivered up those writings which you had power given unto you to translate by the means of the Urim and Thummim, into the hands of a wicked man, you have lost them.

The originals of D&C 10 & 17 do not have "Urim and Thummim," which is a later insertion, further confusing people.

[longview]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The originals of D&C 10 & 17 do not have "Urim and Thummim," which is a later insertion, further confusing people.

Sure.  But that does not invalidate what God has said about the term Urim and Thummim being applied to many different objects.  It was not uncommon for Joseph Smith to revise several scriptures on an ongoing basis as he received revelation.  Line upon line, precept upon precept.

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Cephas, "Stone," which of course is the name given by Jesus to Peter/ Simon

And Jesus is the Chief Corner Stone.  And He is the source of all light (including photons shooting out of the sun).

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's fine as long as we don't confuse the biblical Urim & Thummim with the Nephite interpreters.  One is strictly Israelite-biblical, the other is strictly Jaredie-Nephite.  They need not even look alike.  Making them interchangeable can only lead to confusion.

Think in term of Set Theory.  Those items are members of the set of Urim and Thummim Devices.  It includes God's Residence, the future exalted state of Earth, all the way down to the Liahona and the Seer Stones.  They are not interchangeable but they do function for the purpose of providing revelation and direction.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

On 7/3/2019 at 12:15 PM, SettingDogStar said:

He didn’t seem to possess the Urim and Thummin as described in the OT. The High priest in that temple had a two rocks that would be placed in little “pockets” on the breast plate. There’s some evidence that they were used in casting lots, to divine yes or no answers from the Lord. 

The U&T that Joseph had were the stones given to the Brother of Jared. They were fastened into spectacles and attached to a breastplate. They worked differently then the ones Aaron had, but we aren’t sure exactly how the operated. Though the common narrative was they disappeared or were given to an angel after translation. After the Book of Mormon is published you don’t hear any members of the church describing Joseph using the spectacles again.

When Hyrum told Joseph he would go get it, so Joseph could us it to write the revelation which is D&C. He did not say, I will go get the “stones”.

[Burnside]

On 7/1/2019 at 7:08 PM, The Nehor said:

 

Totally bogus.

This contradicts the D&C and JSH in the PofGP that the plates were translated by the Urim and Thummim.

Joseph Smith stated the title page was the last leaf on the plates, but how would he have known that if he only read words from a rock, which isn’t translation, but dictation? In addition, in D&C 8 and 9, he was to work it out in the translation process, thus those off quoted Sections.

The low IQ BookofMormonCentral, obviously made this video due to the Know Why phrase, then some numbskull employee in the Church put it up on its youtube channel.

But it’s the argument used by Howe in his anti-mormon “Mormonism Unvailed” when the Church was in Kirtland, OH.

https://archive.org/details/mormonismunvaile00howe/page/76

pages 77-78 bottom paragraph then on to page 78

Thus BookofMormonCentral is promoting an anti-mormon claim!! Ha ha ha! 😄

The obvious story is, since Joseph Smith was commanded by the Angel Moroni not to show the gold plates and the Urim and Thummim to anyone, when approached by curiosity seekers, Joseph Smith may have used a rock in a hat as an example, not that he actually translated that way. Thus the false claims and current silly Church scholars promoting it.