God ceasing to be God

[SettingDogStar]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. The richness of virtue allows for many avenues and choices for the exalted. Not all choices are between good and evil. I am not challenging Lehi and his thoughts on agency and being enticed by both sides and thus able to choose is very accurate in this life. I doubt it is the same amongst the exalted.

I don’t think Gods are tempted either. I think the things that God could choose to “fail” would be things like violating the agency of men, violating the laws of Justice, or not keeping His word or something like that. Not that any of these WILL EVER happen but if God can choose to go up then in theory he could choose to go down. Does that make sense? I don’t think God could really even “sin” in the sense of indulging in like the pleasures of the flesh haha

[SettingDogStar]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Again, maybe.  I became an adult but there is no theory where it is possible to undo that.  It is a change that cannot be unchanged.  My fundamental nature was altered in such a way that there is literally no going back.    

I suppose it depends on what becoming a God consists of. If it’s a fundamental change, like you mentioned a kid becoming an adult, then maybe it’s not really all that possible. However if it’s more on the line of acquisition of knowledge and putting that knowledge to use then the possibility becomes more fathomable.

Of course no one has really any clue 😂

[The Nehor]

44 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I don’t think Gods are tempted either. I think the things that God could choose to “fail” would be things like violating the agency of men, violating the laws of Justice, or not keeping His word or something like that. Not that any of these WILL EVER happen but if God can choose to go up then in theory he could choose to go down. Does that make sense? I don’t think God could really even “sin” in the sense of indulging in like the pleasures of the flesh haha

What is wrong with the pleasures of the flesh? Unless you just mean violations of the law of chastity? Flesh brings so much more pleasure then just sex: the feel of an ocean wave crashing down on you, the altitude of a conquered mountain, the thrill of freefall, the reassurance of a hug.

[SettingDogStar]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

What is wrong with the pleasures of the flesh? Unless you just mean violations of the law of chastity? Flesh brings so much more pleasure then just sex: the feel of an ocean wave crashing down on you, the altitude of a conquered mountain, the thrill of freefall, the reassurance of a hug.

Yeah I was more referring to Law of chastity and indulging in “worldly” things. I’m totally on the side that God still has new vistas and experiences to have, else He must get very bored haha

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Again, maybe.  I became an adult but there is no theory where it is possible to undo that.  It is a change that cannot be unchanged.  My fundamental nature was altered in such a way that there is literally no going back.    

But is God the same kind of category of child to adult or is it more good successful adult vs not so all together loser adult. 

After all, Satan has apparently lost his ability to become like God as Christ has, but he had the potential. 

So did God once have the potential to become the Father, but also a Satan type individual?

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

But is God the same kind of category of child to adult or is it more good successful adult vs not so all together loser adult. 

After all, Satan has apparently lost his ability to become like God as Christ has, but he had the potential. 

So did God once have the potential to become the Father, but also a Satan type individual?

Quite possibly. The metaphor is strained because there is no choice in aging. There is on the path to progression. Some have posited that some of God’s spirit children may have chosen to stay in their current state and not risk mortality without rebelling against God. Not sure I agree but it makes sense. Some days I envy them if they exist.

Edited July 2, 2019 by The Nehor

[SettingDogStar]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The metaphor is strained because there is no choice in aging. There is on the path to progression

Thank you for wording it that way, this is my thought but I couldn't think of a way to word it. If the child-to-adult analogy was true then everybody would eventually "grow up" into becoming a God, which isn't true. 

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Can you stop being a man?

God isn't a separate species.  God is an exalted man.  In fact it's an office. Like Bishop or Apostle.

Edited July 3, 2019 by JLHPROF

[Calm]

I prefer God chooses not to sin rather than can’t help it due to his nature as I don’t find it particularly admirable to act in a programmed way. A lion isn’t admirable for being a lion even if magnificent. We don’t admire stars for being good stars. 

God is good because he has no choice...not because he actually chooses good, but I might get judged as evil because I make a poor choice?

[SettingDogStar]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

I prefer God chooses not to sin rather than can’t help it due to his nature as I don’t find it particularly admirable to act in a programmed way. A lion isn’t admirable for being a lion even if magnificent. We don’t admire stars for being good stars. 

God is good because he has no choice...not because he actually chooses good, but I might get judged as evil because I make a poor choice?

I agree with this. The fact that He is so knowledge that He chooses not to sin is much more admirable to me then His nature forcing Him to act certain ways, it makes me feel like He really is a Father choosing to do the best for His children.

[SettingDogStar]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

God isn't a separate species.  God is an exalted man.  In fact it's an office. Like Bishop or Apostle.

Would it better be explained as a state of being? A bishop or an Apostle can be filled with people of varying gifts, powers, and sometimes people will limited spiritual access. Whereas, I think, Gods possess all the same gifts, powers, spiritual aptitude, and knowledge.

Or maybe I'm not thinking through some stuff.

[carbon dioxide]

I guess its possible that God could use his agency and do something that would cause him to cease being God but overall if God is perfect,  then he has no flaws at any level.  Any chance of him making a mistake at this point is not possible. 

[Bernard Gui]

1 Nephi 10:19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I prefer God chooses not to sin rather than can’t help it due to his nature as I don’t find it particularly admirable to act in a programmed way. A lion isn’t admirable for being a lion even if magnificent. We don’t admire stars for being good stars. 

God is good because he has no choice...not because he actually chooses good, but I might get judged as evil because I make a poor choice?

Would it make it more palatable to say that God has chosen righteousness for so long that the impulse to sin is dead in him? He chose to be the way He is and continues to be that way forever.

[SettingDogStar]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Would it make it more palatable to say that God has chosen righteousness for so long that the impulse to sin is dead in him? He chose to be the way He is and continues to be that way forever.

I'd agree with that too. His knowledge and experience essentially prevents Him from failing. I don't think God is ever tempted AT ALL to do things like sin or avoid His duties as our Father. However, the thought experiment is simply that He does have the ability built into His agency. He obviously doesn't sit around wondering or wanting to walk away from it all.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Would it make it more palatable to say that God has chosen righteousness for so long that the impulse to sin is dead in him? He chose to be the way He is and continues to be that way forever.

That would work for me.

[Storm Rider]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

God isn't a separate species.  God is an exalted man.  In fact it's an office. Like Bishop or Apostle.

Yeah, I don't really buy into that idea of an office. An office is not the Alpha and Omega, whereas an individual being is. 

The Exalted man concept attempts to answer the question of First Cause and fails. It presents far more questions than it answers. I agree that God is not a separate species, but I do disagree with the presentation. We are his children; we are his species. There is a reverence needed when addressing or talking about God. We do not bring God down to an anthropomorphic entity, but he exalts us to enter into his presence. 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Yeah, I don't really buy into that idea of an office. An office is not the Alpha and Omega, whereas an individual being is. 

The Exalted man concept attempts to answer the question of First Cause and fails. It presents far more questions than it answers. I agree that God is not a separate species, but I do disagree with the presentation. We are his children; we are his species. There is a reverence needed when addressing or talking about God. We do not bring God down to an anthropomorphic entity, but he exalts us to enter into his presence. 

I do not think it is best described as an office either though the analogy might be useful in some cases. More a state of being. God is a whole human. To be fully human is to be a God. So I guess we can agree with the Catholics and others that follow the creeds that Jesus is fully God and fully human.  

The Church has not presented an answer to the “First Cause” question. The closest we come to is definitions of eternity and the Kolob hymn but many find those answers or hints at answers unsatisfying. I am not sure we know enough to understand it if God tried to teach it to us. Then again there are many who know the mysteries of God so maybe some do know. I need to become one of those people.

And yeah, bringing God down to our level is never smart. He (and His Son) are exemplars of a different caliber. There is also some mystery about Jesus I keep wanting to figure out. While He is in a sense our brother it is not equal. When he speaks of God to the Apostles he talks about “your father” and “my father” and “your God” and “My God” separately. While I do not believe Jesus is referring to different entities there is something different about the relationship. One of those itches I have that kind of whispers “more here” like I get with the passages used to support the Adam-God thing. Gotta love the gospel. So much left to explore.

Edited July 3, 2019 by The Nehor

[longview]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Yeah, I don't really buy into that idea of an office. An office is not the Alpha and Omega, whereas an individual being is. 

The Exalted man concept attempts to answer the question of First Cause and fails. It presents far more questions than it answers. I agree that God is not a separate species, but I do disagree with the presentation. We are his children; we are his species. There is a reverence needed when addressing or talking about God. We do not bring God down to an anthropomorphic entity, but he exalts us to enter into his presence. 

God operates by the power of the Priesthood.  He ascended to His Position by the Authority of the Priesthood.  Intelligences became spirit children of God only by Covenants.  The Godhead is organized by the Power of the Priesthood.  The implementation of the Plan of Happiness and creative works are are done by Covenants.  God's House is a House of Order.  All sanctioned and energized by the Priesthood.  Why is it so farfetched for you to believe in the concept of offices in the Eternal Realms?  The Priesthood is Forever.

Edited July 3, 2019 by longview

[The Nehor]

Just now, longview said:

God operates by the power of the Priesthood.  He ascended to His Position by the Authority of the Priesthood.  Intelligences became spirit children of only by Covenants.  The Godhead is organized by the Power of the Priesthood.  The implementation of the Plan of Happiness and creative works are are done by Covenants.  God's House is a House of Order.  All sanctioned and energized by the Priesthood.  Why is it so farfetched for you to believe in the concept of offices in the Eternal Realms?

I know this was not directed to me but I have no problem with the concept of offices. I am just not convinced the state of Godhood is one.

While I agree with most of what you say the way you describe it the Priesthood sounds superior to God. Then again we know so little about how it works that I really cannot object on any individual point.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, longview said:

God operates by the power of the Priesthood.  He ascended to His Position by the Authority of the Priesthood.  Intelligences became spirit children of God only by Covenants.  The Godhead is organized by the Power of the Priesthood.  The implementation of the Plan of Happiness and creative works are are done by Covenants.  God's House is a House of Order.  All sanctioned and energized by the Priesthood.  Why is it so farfetched for you to believe in the concept of offices in the Eternal Realms?  The Priesthood is Forever.

Okay, who created the Priesthood? Who created god's house? See, that is the problem about this vein of thought. You cannot answer simple questions - it creates more questions than it answers. It avoids who is the FIrst Cause? More importantly, it conflicts with scripture.

It is not that I don't believe anything you are saying - I have read the same things you have. What it means is that because it is not canonized, because we do not have more information - there are too many things we don't know, I choose to just read what we have as scripture and go from there.  

[longview]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know this was not directed to me but I have no problem with the concept of offices. I am just not convinced the state of Godhood is one.

While I agree with most of what you say the way you describe it the Priesthood sounds superior to God. Then again we know so little about how it works that I really cannot object on any individual point.

 

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Okay, who created the Priesthood? Who created god's house? See, that is the problem about this vein of thought. You cannot answer simple questions - it creates more questions than it answers. It avoids who is the FIrst Cause? More importantly, it conflicts with scripture.

It is not that I don't believe anything you are saying - I have read the same things you have. What it means is that because it is not canonized, because we do not have more information - there are too many things we don't know, I choose to just read what we have as scripture and go from there.  

I have pondered for many years about First Cause and what might have led to beginning frameworks (I made a post a while ago how I was powerfully enthralled as a teenager by the book:  "2001:  A Space Odyssey").  This is something I have to leave on the shelf.

I consider the Priesthood to be real and all encompassing and the embodiment of all the generations of the Gods.  Only those who qualify for the top degree (one of three) in the Celestial Kingdom can be permitted to assume the role of Godhood.  Even while in "office" the candidate still has to counsel with the Gods for obtaining permission to recruit intelligences to become spirit children, acquire a space and materials for new creations (organizations), conduct the Plan of Happiness, etc, etc.  All done by Covenants by the "candidate" and the effected participants.  All safeguarded by the Priesthood.  Justice and Mercy strictly observed and enforced.

President Nelson talked recently about taking the "Covenant Path."  This will continue in the Hereafter, worlds without END.

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, longview said:

 

I have pondered for many years about First Cause and what might have led to beginning frameworks (I made a post a while ago how I was powerfully enthralled as a teenager by the book:  "2001:  A Space Odyssey").  This is something I have to leave on the shelf.

I consider the Priesthood to be real and all encompassing and the embodiment of all the generations of the Gods.  Only those who qualify for the top degree (one of three) in the Celestial Kingdom can be permitted to assume the role of Godhood.  Even while in "office" the candidate still has to counsel with the Gods for obtaining permission to recruit intelligences to become spirit children, acquire a space and materials for new creations (organizations), conduct the Plan of Happiness, etc, etc.  All done by Covenants by the "candidate" and the effected participants.  All safeguarded by the Priesthood.  Justice and Mercy strictly observed and enforced.

President Nelson talked recently about taking the "Covenant Path."  This will continue in the Hereafter, worlds without END.

Obtain permission? Get counsel? Would not knowing all make that irrelevant?

[longview]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Obtain permission? Get counsel? Would not knowing all make that irrelevant?

The ward bishop is among the wisest and most knowledgeable but considers it most beneficial to engage the leaders in council.  Jehovah participated in the Grand Council and made His commitment to becoming the Lamb of God.  Why?  To make possible the implementation of current Plan of Happiness.

[SettingDogStar]

23 minutes ago, longview said:

The ward bishop is among the wisest and most knowledgeable but considers it most beneficial to engage the leaders in council.  Jehovah participated in the Grand Council and made His commitment to becoming the Lamb of God.  Why?  To make possible the implementation of current Plan of Happiness.

We know there was a council, so obviously the council has to DO something haha I agree with you on that point.