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LDS church in the news

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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

What part of that article is it that proves to you that the church isn't led by God?

Trek - How many died in the original trek?  unprepared, unprotected...  starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc.  does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?)  

Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped?  case after case... 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Changed, if you are looking for an group that does not involve majorly flawed humans, then... well you're out of luck because all humans are messed up.  

LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others.

Ex-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others (including that group you yourself are celebrating in currently).

Never-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others.

 

Trying to look for a  people that does not involve these peoples means that you are looking for a group that is not human- and hence yourself would be disqualified.  Because each of us is a messed up human being.

 

The LDS church is unique in that it claims to be "led by God" though, church leaders are not supposed to "lead people astray" and all that ;) ... church leaders are not supposed to ask you to endanger your children by taking care of their pedophile son... 

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3 minutes ago, changed said:

 

The LDS church is unique in that it claims to be "led by God" though, church leaders are not supposed to "lead people astray" and all that ;) ... church leaders are not supposed to ask you to endanger your children by taking care of their pedophile son... 

And that ex-mormon group you love so much: what do you say about all the pedophile predators laying there?  Shall you likewise decry the entirety of that group to be evil?

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Posted (edited)

All pedophiles and predators should be shamed.  But if churches/schools and people can just be observing...no one should get away with pedophilia.  The very fact that it is obvious in church settings should ring a bell...access...access....to children!  But lets face it...eventually churches will have to do something.  I believe and hope the catholics are on board....but to hide and even promote those who have confessed and/or have been accused...should no longer be a part of the problem.  Wake up an smell the damn coffee people!!  Sorry but not.  So sick of excusing and making excuses for bishops..and others that ignore or even part of the problem.  No PR in the world is worth the trauma...all  the "yeah buts" and priesthood in the world isn't going to change the history of lives damaged.
"

Edited by Jeanne
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3 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

All pedophiles and predators should be shamed.  But if churches/schools and people can just be observing...no one should get away with pedophilia.  The very fact that it is obvious in church settings should ring a bell...access...access....to children!  But lets face it...eventually churches will have to do something.  I believe and hope the catholics are on board....but to hide and even promote those who have confessed and/or have been accused...should no longer be a part of the problem.  Wake up an smell the damn coffee people!!  Sorry but not.  So sick of excusing and making excuses for bishops..and others that ignore or even part of the problem.  No PR in the world is worth the trauma...all  the "yeah buts" and priesthood in the world isn't going to change the history of lives damaged.
"

No one is making excuses for pedophiles.

But we also need to see the WHOLE picture and not pretend that this is something isolated to churches, cause it's not.  

If you want to do your best to protect your kids from pedophiles, then educated them and build communication bridges.  So that way if their grandpa is crocked, or the neighborhood babysitter, or your best friend's husband, or a school teacher, or the neighborhood kid, etc -- that way your kids know the words to express things and get help.  

 Don't depend on any system to protect your kids for you.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said:

And that ex-mormon group you love so much: what do you say about all the pedophile predators laying there?  Shall you likewise decry the entirety of that group to be evil?

 

Who?  Sam Young is in that ex-Mo group, I have not seen anyone fight against pedophiles more than Sam...     Show me osmeone in the church who fights against, pedophiles, and protects youth like Sam does?  

 

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Like I said, I don't think you are seeing things very clearly, because of the trauma that you and your family have experienced.  Trauma and anger make it more difficult to see things clearly, not easier.

The tragedy of the Martin and Willey handcart companies is not celebrated.  The people who survived, and the Heavenly help that came despite the poor choices of those involved is what it celebrated.  And youth trek is more a celebration of the thousands of saints (approximately 3,000) that made the 1300 mile walk safely (about 639 of the 3,000 died on the trip.  Infant mortality was actually lower for babies on the trail than it was for babies in the general U.S. population).  That is nothing to be embarrassed about.  

What are the cases where church leaders knew that abuse was happening and they perpetuated it?

Watch the news story in the OP - the relief society's president's son had been in trouble after trouble - had been molesting their other kids in the house - so in order to "protect their own children" they pawned their son off on another family where he abused other children.  The guy had a criminal record - child after child after child - and he kept being promoted, and placed into the homes of unsuspecting families who trusted those in leadership positions in the church.  That RS president should be in jail with her sick son.  

Same thing with my case - the abuser was given leadership callings after (a) his pedophile problems ended his first temple marriage (b) attending addiction recovery groups  → and he was called to work with the youth, and served in the bishopric.  year after year after year, child after child after child - and the church protected him.  He is now in jail because his employer turned him in.  

Called by God?  Trust your leadership?  I think not.  

 

 

639 of the 3,000...  21.3% died... not faith promoting.  This is an example of horrible leadership.  

Edited by changed

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I can think of a lot more serious problems that indicate this church isn’t led by God. 

But I honestly think these stories “proving” that the entire church is false is a big stretch.

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1 hour ago, changed said:

Watch the news story in the OP - the relief society's president's son had been in trouble after trouble - had been molesting their other kids in the house - so in order to "protect their own children" they pawned their son off on another family where he abused other children.  The guy had a criminal record - child after child after child - and he kept being promoted, and placed into the homes of unsuspecting families who trusted those in leadership positions in the church.  That RS president should be in jail with her sick son.  

Same thing with my case - the abuser was given leadership callings after (a) his pedophile problems ended his first temple marriage (b) attending addiction recovery groups  → and he was called to work with the youth, and served in the bishopric.  year after year after year, child after child after child - and the church protected him.  He is now in jail because his employer turned him in.  

Called by God?  Trust your leadership?  I think not.  

 

 

639 of the 3,000...  21.3% died... not faith promoting.  This is an example of horrible leadership.  

Sorry if my math was wonky.  The death rate was 4.7%.  Which is not an example of horrible leadership (the death rate for the general population of the U.S. at the time was 2.9%) but I know that that's not something you want to face right now because it does not fit in with your narrative.

I'm very sorry for the harm that was done to you and harm that has happened to others.  It's horrible.  Truly horrible.  But in the examples that you have presented, did church leadership KNOW the person was sexually abusing people?

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2 hours ago, changed said:

Trek - How many died in the original trek?  unprepared, unprotected...  starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc.  does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?)  

How many Israelites died in the desert fleeing from Egypt?  Couldn't Moses have foreseen this and prevented it?  How many babies were murdered at Bethlehem after Herod decided that one of them might overthrow him when it grew up?  Who was there to stop it?  Nobody.   How many Christians were jailed and died in prison at Saul of Tarsus's behest in obedience to the Sanhedrin's order to cleanse Israel?  The then-First Presidency (Peter, James and John) didn't seem to be able to do anything about it. How many Christians were burnt alive as torches in the Roman Colosseum in order to illuminate the nightime gladiatorial games?  Paul was in Rome, as was Peter.  Why didn't they foresee this and prevent it?

 

2 hours ago, changed said:

Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped?  case after case... 

That's right, nothing at all has ever been done to deal with the problem.  Except for all that has been done, which you refuse to acknowledge.

The Church never claimed that the Prophet Seer and Revelator is omniscient.  Yet this is what you expect.

You're getting as predictable in your disdain and bitterness as Exiled.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, changed said:

Trek - How many died in the original trek?  unprepared, unprotected...  starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc.  does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?)  

Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped?  case after case... 

 

 

 

Do you believe in Christ? Because if a positive, challenge free outcome is required to prove inspiration, we have a problem. 

Also, factually, the pioneer migration of the Saints was very successful by any measure. The death rate was only slightly higher than the overall death rate at the time.

The tragic handcart history had an overall death rate of 16 percent compared to 3 1/2 percent overall for the pioneers. 

While, personally, I don’t really love the idea of trek reenactments. In my opinion, I don’t think it proves a lack of inspiration on the part of church leaders when a few suffer from dehydration in hot weather.

I share your concern about ecclesiastical abuse and have seen the church enact policies to counter. I am grateful they have done so and also believe more safety measures could be taken. I am really horrified that this happened to your family. 

https://www.kuer.org/post/new-pioneer-mortality-rates-put-trek-deaths-perspective#stream/0

Added link to statistics on death rates. Also, I learned that the Willie and Martin Handcart companies did not have the highest death rate. Two companies left without realizing members had cholera and had a 20 percent death rate. 

Edited by bsjkki
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3 hours ago, changed said:

I do not see the logic in your thinking. A church can be led by God even if some of the members, maybe even a lot of them choose not to follow the tenets, commandments, etc. which God gives them through the church leaders. The Children of Israel is one example that comes to mind. A people that had been miraculously saved from an Egyptian army and were led by Jehovah by day and by night with instructions coming daily via Moses, a prophet, yet many, many of them rebelled in different ways.

Glenn

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I do not see the logic in your thinking. A church can be led by God even if some of the members, maybe even a lot of them choose not to follow the tenets, commandments, etc. which God gives them through the church leaders. The Children of Israel is one example that comes to mind. A people that had been miraculously saved from an Egyptian army and were led by Jehovah by day and by night with instructions coming daily via Moses, a prophet, yet many, many of them rebelled in different ways.

Glenn

This is not about followers, it is about fallen leaders.  

The leaders - not followers - are to blame.

Edited by changed

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59 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Do you believe in God or the Bible?

My new beliefs are not founded within the Bible or Christianity, but in what currently exists.  I do believe in a higher power which directs Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians alike - and leaves all religious groups with enough good to teach community, and enough evil to promote individual self-reliance.  

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2 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

I can think of a lot more serious problems that indicate this church isn’t led by God. 

I agree.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

@changed, you're not helping your cause with your tactics. Your arguments are illogical, your thinking not clear, and thus people will dismiss your claims. You find a boogyman under every LDS bed. You tend to hijack threads to repeat your talking points, points which are again illogical and unclear.

If you want to effect change, then you must have effective tactics. The way you act will not change LDS minds., so at this point I don't think your purpose is to have them change. I think you just want wallow in how evil the LDS church and so you bring it up every chance you get. I know you have a personal backstory, and that can help us understand your behavior, but it doesn't excuse it. If you are unable to think somewhat rationally on the issues surrounding your backstory, I might recommend therapy to help you get to a point where you are not lashing out irrationally and spending your time living in negativity, at least how you present yourself here.

The point is to warn others not to trust church leadership.  False beliefs are one thing, abuse is another.

I think those who raise their hands to sustain abusers are the ones needing therapy... I wash my hands of enabling abuse with silence.  

Edited by changed

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5 minutes ago, changed said:

This is not about followers, it is about fallen leaders.  

The leaders - not followers - are to blame.

Sometimes the leaders are to be blamed, but they are all we have to work with right now. 
Once again we have an example of church critics claiming we believe the leaders are infallible, but that has never been taught.
We are taught to follow them but, I have never expected them to be perfect.
Since they are all we have to work with, we will follow them because there is nothing better in this world right now. 
Unless you know of some other source to God that the world can follow and know it is God's will for all people of the world?

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