changed Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) Nightline - ABC, last night: https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/prominent-lds-mom-recommended-babysitter-preyed-church-children-64035089?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/day-saints-member-convicted-sexual-abuse-minors-part-64035171?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... Edited June 29, 2019 by changed Link to comment
Popular Post bluebell Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 20 minutes ago, changed said: Nightline - ABC, last night: https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/prominent-lds-mom-recommended-babysitter-preyed-church-children-64035089?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/day-saints-member-convicted-sexual-abuse-minors-part-64035171?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... I don't think your thinking is very clear on this issue Changed. That's probably why other's don't form the same conclusions that you do. That members of the church do evil things, or don't see into the future to make sure that their lives are never impacted by evil people does not at all convince me the church couldn't be led by God. I don't personally believe that that conclusion is reasonable. As for the trek thing, that's just a non-issue to me. The latest on the trek situation: "SALT LAKE CITY, Utah – Several members of a Latter-day Saint group participating in a pioneer trek suffered dehydration symptoms Friday, authorities said. According to Salt Lake City Fire Department Capt. Adam Archuleta, search and rescue crews responded to the This Is The Place Monument area to provide aid. The group consists of approximately 360 youth ages 14 – 18 accompanied by adults, Archuleta said. “They’re more than half way through their trek,” he said. “They’re just experiencing some heat-related issues. They’re still a ways off the trail head.” “We’ve gone up and we’re re-hydrating some of them,” he added. “We’re providing shade. If there are any that have any significant heat-related issues, we’re bringing them down to treat them here.” No injuries were reported." What part of that article is it that proves to you that the church isn't led by God? 13 Link to comment
Popular Post Jane_Doe Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, changed said: Nightline - ABC, last night: https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/prominent-lds-mom-recommended-babysitter-preyed-church-children-64035089?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/day-saints-member-convicted-sexual-abuse-minors-part-64035171?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... Changed, if you are looking for an group that does not involve majorly flawed humans, then... well you're out of luck because all humans are messed up. LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others. Ex-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others (including that group you yourself are celebrating in currently). Never-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others. Trying to look for a people that does not involve these peoples means that you are looking for a group that is not human- and hence yourself would be disqualified. Because each of us is a messed up human being. Edited June 29, 2019 by Jane_Doe 7 Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, bluebell said: What part of that article is it that proves to you that the church isn't led by God? Trek - How many died in the original trek? unprepared, unprotected... starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc. does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?) Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped? case after case... 2 Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Changed, if you are looking for an group that does not involve majorly flawed humans, then... well you're out of luck because all humans are messed up. LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others. Ex-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others (including that group you yourself are celebrating in currently). Never-LDS Christians have people that make mistakes innocently and people that are purposefully hurting others. Trying to look for a people that does not involve these peoples means that you are looking for a group that is not human- and hence yourself would be disqualified. Because each of us is a messed up human being. The LDS church is unique in that it claims to be "led by God" though, church leaders are not supposed to "lead people astray" and all that ... church leaders are not supposed to ask you to endanger your children by taking care of their pedophile son... 1 Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, changed said: The LDS church is unique in that it claims to be "led by God" though, church leaders are not supposed to "lead people astray" and all that ... church leaders are not supposed to ask you to endanger your children by taking care of their pedophile son... And that ex-mormon group you love so much: what do you say about all the pedophile predators laying there? Shall you likewise decry the entirety of that group to be evil? 4 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) All pedophiles and predators should be shamed. But if churches/schools and people can just be observing...no one should get away with pedophilia. The very fact that it is obvious in church settings should ring a bell...access...access....to children! But lets face it...eventually churches will have to do something. I believe and hope the catholics are on board....but to hide and even promote those who have confessed and/or have been accused...should no longer be a part of the problem. Wake up an smell the damn coffee people!! Sorry but not. So sick of excusing and making excuses for bishops..and others that ignore or even part of the problem. No PR in the world is worth the trauma...all the "yeah buts" and priesthood in the world isn't going to change the history of lives damaged. " Edited June 29, 2019 by Jeanne 1 Link to comment
Jane_Doe Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: All pedophiles and predators should be shamed. But if churches/schools and people can just be observing...no one should get away with pedophilia. The very fact that it is obvious in church settings should ring a bell...access...access....to children! But lets face it...eventually churches will have to do something. I believe and hope the catholics are on board....but to hide and even promote those who have confessed and/or have been accused...should no longer be a part of the problem. Wake up an smell the damn coffee people!! Sorry but not. So sick of excusing and making excuses for bishops..and others that ignore or even part of the problem. No PR in the world is worth the trauma...all the "yeah buts" and priesthood in the world isn't going to change the history of lives damaged. " No one is making excuses for pedophiles. But we also need to see the WHOLE picture and not pretend that this is something isolated to churches, cause it's not. If you want to do your best to protect your kids from pedophiles, then educated them and build communication bridges. So that way if their grandpa is crocked, or the neighborhood babysitter, or your best friend's husband, or a school teacher, or the neighborhood kid, etc -- that way your kids know the words to express things and get help. Don't depend on any system to protect your kids for you. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post bluebell Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 27 minutes ago, changed said: Trek - How many died in the original trek? unprepared, unprotected... starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc. does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?) Like I said, I don't think you are seeing things very clearly, because of the trauma that you and your family have experienced. Trauma and anger make it more difficult to see things clearly, not easier. The tragedy of the Martin and Willey handcart companies is not celebrated. The people who survived, and the Heavenly help that came despite the poor choices of those involved is what it celebrated. And youth trek is more a celebration of the thousands of saints (approximately 3,000) that made the 1300 mile walk safely (about 639 of the 3,000 died on the trip. Infant mortality was actually lower for babies on the trail than it was for babies in the general U.S. population). That is nothing to be embarrassed about. Quote Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped? case after case... What are the cases where church leaders knew that abuse was happening and they perpetuated it? 7 Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jane_Doe said: And that ex-mormon group you love so much: what do you say about all the pedophile predators laying there? Shall you likewise decry the entirety of that group to be evil? Who? Sam Young is in that ex-Mo group, I have not seen anyone fight against pedophiles more than Sam... Show me osmeone in the church who fights against, pedophiles, and protects youth like Sam does? 32 minutes ago, bluebell said: Like I said, I don't think you are seeing things very clearly, because of the trauma that you and your family have experienced. Trauma and anger make it more difficult to see things clearly, not easier. The tragedy of the Martin and Willey handcart companies is not celebrated. The people who survived, and the Heavenly help that came despite the poor choices of those involved is what it celebrated. And youth trek is more a celebration of the thousands of saints (approximately 3,000) that made the 1300 mile walk safely (about 639 of the 3,000 died on the trip. Infant mortality was actually lower for babies on the trail than it was for babies in the general U.S. population). That is nothing to be embarrassed about. What are the cases where church leaders knew that abuse was happening and they perpetuated it? Watch the news story in the OP - the relief society's president's son had been in trouble after trouble - had been molesting their other kids in the house - so in order to "protect their own children" they pawned their son off on another family where he abused other children. The guy had a criminal record - child after child after child - and he kept being promoted, and placed into the homes of unsuspecting families who trusted those in leadership positions in the church. That RS president should be in jail with her sick son. Same thing with my case - the abuser was given leadership callings after (a) his pedophile problems ended his first temple marriage (b) attending addiction recovery groups → and he was called to work with the youth, and served in the bishopric. year after year after year, child after child after child - and the church protected him. He is now in jail because his employer turned him in. Called by God? Trust your leadership? I think not. 639 of the 3,000... 21.3% died... not faith promoting. This is an example of horrible leadership. Edited June 29, 2019 by changed Link to comment
Popular Post Jane_Doe Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, changed said: Who? There are ex-mormon pedophiles. Don't be so naive as to think that being ex-Mormon cures anyone of those crooked desires or that you can instantly trust every ex-mormon. (You shouldn't instantly trust anyone in that regard). I understand that you're traumatized by your experience -- I'm also the product of a pedophile horror story. But if we only think that people in churches can be pedophiles, then that's leaving ourselves and our children woefully ungaurded. Edited June 29, 2019 by Jane_Doe 5 Link to comment
10THAmendment Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 I can think of a lot more serious problems that indicate this church isn’t led by God. But I honestly think these stories “proving” that the entire church is false is a big stretch. 3 Link to comment
bluebell Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 1 hour ago, changed said: Watch the news story in the OP - the relief society's president's son had been in trouble after trouble - had been molesting their other kids in the house - so in order to "protect their own children" they pawned their son off on another family where he abused other children. The guy had a criminal record - child after child after child - and he kept being promoted, and placed into the homes of unsuspecting families who trusted those in leadership positions in the church. That RS president should be in jail with her sick son. Same thing with my case - the abuser was given leadership callings after (a) his pedophile problems ended his first temple marriage (b) attending addiction recovery groups → and he was called to work with the youth, and served in the bishopric. year after year after year, child after child after child - and the church protected him. He is now in jail because his employer turned him in. Called by God? Trust your leadership? I think not. 639 of the 3,000... 21.3% died... not faith promoting. This is an example of horrible leadership. Sorry if my math was wonky. The death rate was 4.7%. Which is not an example of horrible leadership (the death rate for the general population of the U.S. at the time was 2.9%) but I know that that's not something you want to face right now because it does not fit in with your narrative. I'm very sorry for the harm that was done to you and harm that has happened to others. It's horrible. Truly horrible. But in the examples that you have presented, did church leadership KNOW the person was sexually abusing people? 3 Link to comment
SteveO Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: Nightline - ABC, last night: https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/prominent-lds-mom-recommended-babysitter-preyed-church-children-64035089?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/day-saints-member-convicted-sexual-abuse-minors-part-64035171?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... Do you believe in God or the Bible? Link to comment
Stargazer Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: Trek - How many died in the original trek? unprepared, unprotected... starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc. does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?) How many Israelites died in the desert fleeing from Egypt? Couldn't Moses have foreseen this and prevented it? How many babies were murdered at Bethlehem after Herod decided that one of them might overthrow him when it grew up? Who was there to stop it? Nobody. How many Christians were jailed and died in prison at Saul of Tarsus's behest in obedience to the Sanhedrin's order to cleanse Israel? The then-First Presidency (Peter, James and John) didn't seem to be able to do anything about it. How many Christians were burnt alive as torches in the Roman Colosseum in order to illuminate the nightime gladiatorial games? Paul was in Rome, as was Peter. Why didn't they foresee this and prevent it? 2 hours ago, changed said: Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped? case after case... That's right, nothing at all has ever been done to deal with the problem. Except for all that has been done, which you refuse to acknowledge. The Church never claimed that the Prophet Seer and Revelator is omniscient. Yet this is what you expect. You're getting as predictable in your disdain and bitterness as Exiled. 4 Link to comment
bsjkki Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, changed said: Trek - How many died in the original trek? unprepared, unprotected... starvation, froze to death rather than wait and travel in the summer etc. etc. does not appear inspired... and yet this trajedy is celebrated as something to be proud of (rather than embarrassed of?) Abuse at the hands of church leaders which is perpetuated rather than stopped? case after case... Do you believe in Christ? Because if a positive, challenge free outcome is required to prove inspiration, we have a problem. Also, factually, the pioneer migration of the Saints was very successful by any measure. The death rate was only slightly higher than the overall death rate at the time. The tragic handcart history had an overall death rate of 16 percent compared to 3 1/2 percent overall for the pioneers. While, personally, I don’t really love the idea of trek reenactments. In my opinion, I don’t think it proves a lack of inspiration on the part of church leaders when a few suffer from dehydration in hot weather. I share your concern about ecclesiastical abuse and have seen the church enact policies to counter. I am grateful they have done so and also believe more safety measures could be taken. I am really horrified that this happened to your family. https://www.kuer.org/post/new-pioneer-mortality-rates-put-trek-deaths-perspective#stream/0 Added link to statistics on death rates. Also, I learned that the Willie and Martin Handcart companies did not have the highest death rate. Two companies left without realizing members had cholera and had a 20 percent death rate. Edited June 29, 2019 by bsjkki 4 Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 3 hours ago, changed said: Nightline - ABC, last night: https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/prominent-lds-mom-recommended-babysitter-preyed-church-children-64035089?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image https://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/day-saints-member-convicted-sexual-abuse-minors-part-64035171?cid=clicksource_574_null_card_image And.... in other news... https://www.abc4.com/news/top-stories/hundreds-suffer-from-heat-exhaustion-during-youth-pioneer-trek-activity/?fbclid=IwAR0TAA-DDmLPgYrMzMp6I_4kprggi0U41acm2uKZHIEwyY2KmT4ki72OOQU Just wondering how some can justify the claim "the church is led by God" in light of things like this... I do not see the logic in your thinking. A church can be led by God even if some of the members, maybe even a lot of them choose not to follow the tenets, commandments, etc. which God gives them through the church leaders. The Children of Israel is one example that comes to mind. A people that had been miraculously saved from an Egyptian army and were led by Jehovah by day and by night with instructions coming daily via Moses, a prophet, yet many, many of them rebelled in different ways. Glenn 2 Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: I do not see the logic in your thinking. A church can be led by God even if some of the members, maybe even a lot of them choose not to follow the tenets, commandments, etc. which God gives them through the church leaders. The Children of Israel is one example that comes to mind. A people that had been miraculously saved from an Egyptian army and were led by Jehovah by day and by night with instructions coming daily via Moses, a prophet, yet many, many of them rebelled in different ways. Glenn This is not about followers, it is about fallen leaders. The leaders - not followers - are to blame. Edited June 29, 2019 by changed Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 @changed, you're not helping your cause with your tactics. Your arguments are illogical, your thinking not clear, and thus people will dismiss your claims. You find a boogyman under every LDS bed. You tend to hijack threads to repeat your talking points, points which are again illogical and unclear. If you want to effect change, then you must have effective tactics. The way you act will not change LDS minds., so at this point I don't think your purpose is to have them change. I think you just want wallow in how evil the LDS church and so you bring it up every chance you get. I know you have a personal backstory, and that can help us understand your behavior, but it doesn't excuse it. If you are unable to think somewhat rationally on the issues surrounding your backstory, I might recommend therapy to help you get to a point where you are not lashing out irrationally and spending your time living in negativity, at least how you present yourself here. 10 Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 59 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Do you believe in God or the Bible? My new beliefs are not founded within the Bible or Christianity, but in what currently exists. I do believe in a higher power which directs Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, and Christians alike - and leaves all religious groups with enough good to teach community, and enough evil to promote individual self-reliance. Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 2 hours ago, 10THAmendment said: I can think of a lot more serious problems that indicate this church isn’t led by God. I agree. Link to comment
changed Posted June 29, 2019 Author Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: @changed, you're not helping your cause with your tactics. Your arguments are illogical, your thinking not clear, and thus people will dismiss your claims. You find a boogyman under every LDS bed. You tend to hijack threads to repeat your talking points, points which are again illogical and unclear. If you want to effect change, then you must have effective tactics. The way you act will not change LDS minds., so at this point I don't think your purpose is to have them change. I think you just want wallow in how evil the LDS church and so you bring it up every chance you get. I know you have a personal backstory, and that can help us understand your behavior, but it doesn't excuse it. If you are unable to think somewhat rationally on the issues surrounding your backstory, I might recommend therapy to help you get to a point where you are not lashing out irrationally and spending your time living in negativity, at least how you present yourself here. The point is to warn others not to trust church leadership. False beliefs are one thing, abuse is another. I think those who raise their hands to sustain abusers are the ones needing therapy... I wash my hands of enabling abuse with silence. Edited June 29, 2019 by changed Link to comment
JAHS Posted June 29, 2019 Share Posted June 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, changed said: This is not about followers, it is about fallen leaders. The leaders - not followers - are to blame. Sometimes the leaders are to be blamed, but they are all we have to work with right now. Once again we have an example of church critics claiming we believe the leaders are infallible, but that has never been taught. We are taught to follow them but, I have never expected them to be perfect. Since they are all we have to work with, we will follow them because there is nothing better in this world right now. Unless you know of some other source to God that the world can follow and know it is God's will for all people of the world? 2 Link to comment
Popular Post MiserereNobis Posted June 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 29, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, changed said: The point is to warn others not to trust church leadership. False beliefs are one thing, abuse is another. I think those who raise their hands to sustain abusers are the needing therapy... I wash my hands of enabling abuse with silence. Ok, then you should consider that your tactics are not working. You are not going to accomplish your point of warning others by acting the way you are acting. In fact, it is probably going to have the opposite effect. People are going to dismiss you and then, because of association with you, dismiss others who might be trying to warn. Think about that... the way you are acting here, the way you are posting here, has a good chance of doing the opposite of what you intend, which (from your point-of-view) means you might be actually causing more harm. You might be increasing the problem. So, instead of your current tactics, why don't you figure out how to reach LDS without turning them off? This is very reminiscent of a discussion I had with, lostindc I think it was. It is basic rhetoric. In order to convince someone, you have to be seen as trustworthy by them. Your behavior here has wiped out most or all trustworthiness, from an LDS point-of-view. You make outrageous claims against the LDS church which are patently false. You beat your one drum every chance you get. I'd recommend reading a book on rhetoric, coming back with a new screen name (the ethos of changes is ruined by your behavior), and begin your warning again, but this time in a way that will actually work. If you just keep doing what you are doing, you are not really warning anyone and your purpose, especially after I've explained this to you, is clearly then not to warn. In fact, if you keep doing what you are doing, then you are not washing your hands of enabling abuse, you are actually enabling it, because no one is going to listen to you and that will be your fault because of the way you present your information. Edited June 29, 2019 by MiserereNobis 9 Link to comment
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