Definition of gaslighting

[MustardSeed]

Gaslighting is a term often misused when the term “manipulating” would be more applicable. 

The term Gaslight means to attempt to convince someone that their reality is not real. 

For example, you put your keys on the counter.  I hide the keys, you can’t find them, I tell you that you must be going crazy. 

It’s an intentional effort to make you think you’ve lost your marbles.  

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[provoman]

Seems an over used term

Edited June 27, 2019 by provoman

[HappyJackWagon]

28 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Gaslighting is a term often misused when the term “manipulating” would be more applicable. 

The term Gaslight means to attempt to convince someone that their reality is not real. 

For example, you put your keys on the counter.  I hide the keys, you can’t find them, I tell you that you must be going crazy. 

It’s an intentional effort to make you think you’ve lost your marbles.  

 

You're right that calling something a manipulation may often be more accurate. But I don't have to tell you you're going crazy to gaslight. I can simply tell you that what you know to be true, never really happened.

For example- If I know I was taught X my entire life, but then someone tells me I wasn't taught X, but rather Y, then I might start to doubt myself and think I'm going crazy. I doubt my own experience because someone who knows better is telling my I was never taught X. So if I believe X, it is my fault. I think that is legit gaslighting.  IOW- ALL gaslighting is a manipulation, but not all manipulations are gaslighting.

 

 

[Calm]

Quote

manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.

If the intent isn't to drive the person to doubt their sanity, it isn't gaslighting.

It may be rewriting history, but trying to convince someone something false is true is not the same thing as trying to get them to doubt theirselves themselves.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Calm

[Storm Rider]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You're right that calling something a manipulation may often be more accurate. But I don't have to tell you you're going crazy to gaslight. I can simply tell you that what you know to be true, never really happened.

For example- If I know I was taught X my entire life, but then someone tells me I wasn't taught X, but rather Y, then I might start to doubt myself and think I'm going crazy. I doubt my own experience because someone who knows better is telling my I was never taught X. So if I believe X, it is my fault. I think that is legit gaslighting.  IOW- ALL gaslighting is a manipulation, but not all manipulations are gaslighting.

Your definition of gaslighting is significantly different than the defined term, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."  The intent of gaslighting is to make you think you are have lost your mind and cannot trust yourself. What you are defining does not match the definition. 

[SettingDogStar]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Your definition of gaslighting is significantly different than the defined term, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."  The intent of gaslighting is to make you think you are have lost your mind and cannot trust yourself. What you are defining does not match the definition. 

I mean what he explained sounds like you’re subtly manipulating someone to question their sanity. It’s just more subtle and sneaky.

By convincing someone they never were really taught X but were really taught Y they would probably start questioning what was true and their own sanity and understanding.

Edited June 27, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

y convincing someone they never were really taught X but were really taught Y they would probably start questioning what was true and their own sanity and understanding.

perhaps provide an example of what you think is gaslighting so we can see how the gaslighter is served by having the individual doubt their own sanity.

[SettingDogStar]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

perhaps provide an example of what you think is gaslighting so we can see how the gaslighter is served by having the individual doubt their own sanity.

The definition doesn’t require the gaslighter to be served. It just says it’s manipulation by psychological means to make someone question their sanity. It doesn’t have to benefit or serve anyone.

A good example would be trying to convince a victim of sexual abuse that it’s their fault they were abused, not the abusers. Eventually you could convince someone that the way they dressed, acted, or talked was the reason they were attacked and thus get them to question or change their own reality, even though they originally blamed their abuser.

Edited June 27, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[Calm]

So someone will gaslight with no purpose to gaslight?  Why gaslight then?

[SettingDogStar]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So someone will gaslight with no purpose to gaslight?  Why gaslight then?

I doubt anyone would actually gaslight with no purpose, it just seems silly unless it was accidental or a misunderstanding. All I pointed out was that the official definition does not require the gaslighter to be benefited in anyway.

[HappyJackWagon]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the intent isn't to drive the person to doubt their sanity, it isn't gaslighting.

It may be rewriting history, but trying to convince someone something false is true is not the same things as trying to get them to doubt theirselves.

I suppose it would be important to define "sanity".

If you doubt yourself enough to think that what you experienced, you really didn't experience, is there a loss of sanity. I don't think this definition of gaslighting is limited to making someone think they are insane. But I do think that doubting the experiences of your reality is in essence doubting ones sanity.

ETA-

Quote

san·i·ty

NOUN

1. the ability to think and behave in a normal and rational manner; sound mental health.

   "I began to doubt my own sanity"

   synonyms:

   soundness of mind · mental health · mental faculties · balance · balance of mind · stability · reason · rationality · saneness · lucidity · lucidness · sense · senses · wits ·

   [more]

   normality · right-mindedness

   antonyms:

   insanity

   • reasonable and rational behavior.

Think of it this way. If I have the experience of learning something and then act on that believing it is right, doing that thing would be a sane thing. It would be rational and normal.

Now if I did that rational and normal thing, based on my learning, but was later told by the person who taught me that they never really taught me that, I would question the rationality and normalcy of my actions based on what I had been taught to do. In that way, I would be doubting my sanity.

Edited June 27, 2019 by HappyJackWagon

[MiserereNobis]

Isn’t it when as kids we’d fart at a lighter? I’m looking at you, @The Nehor

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I doubt anyone would actually gaslight with no purpose, it just seems silly unless it was accidental or a misunderstanding. All I pointed out was that the official definition does not require the gaslighter to be benefited in anyway.

They could be rewarded by just the sense of power over others.  When .I said "served", I am not talking about merely material gain as was the goal in the movie the term comes from (jewels iirc).

Edited June 27, 2019 by Calm

[SettingDogStar]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

They could be rewarded by just the sense of power over others.  When .I said "served", I am not talking about merely material gain as was the goal in the movie the term comes from (jewels iirc).

I agree, no one purposefully gaslights for zero benefits. It could be as simple as they enjoy playing with someones mind.

Edited June 27, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[Raskolnikov]

8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I agree, no one purposefully gaslights for zero benefits. It could be as simple as they enjoy playing with someones mind.

or that they or the institution they are representing continue to control the narrative and what is or isn't viewed as "true."

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Raskolnikov said:

or that they or the institution they are representing continue to control the narrative and what is or isn't viewed as "true."

But in that case the institution's purpose isn't to make the person doubt themselves.  All they are focused on is belief.  They don't care how someone gets to belief.

[Raskolnikov]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

But in that case the institution's purpose isn't to make the person doubt themselves.  All they are focused on is belief.  They don't care how someone gets to belief.

I was trying to articulate another reason why gas lighting may occur. The term gaslighting focuses on the results of the action, not the purpose. 

[The Nehor]

Gas lighting is not exclusively used to convince people they are outright crazy though it can be used that way, particularly with those with mental disorders or low self-confidence. It is also used to undermine your confidence in your own judgement and make you skeptical of your own conclusions and judgments to the point where you need the other person to validate everything or you are just perpetually paralyzed in indecision and unsurety. The main feature is to make someone doubt themself.

Giving someone reason to doubt themself is not inherently bad. Sometimes it is done to persuade or to convince someone not to do something dangerous or to do something good. The difference is hazy but I would put it whether you are trying to help or hurt them. Of course we are good at self-deception.

Gas lighting is most commonly used in a romantic relationship to cover up something that was done or to make their partner more dependent on them. If John attacks Susie and the next day he tries to explain that it never happened, was a dream, or you are exaggerating and we were just play-fighting or you attacked me and I just restrained you to make you stop or something like that. Or she tells a shared story and he tells her key events were different. The goal is to convince them that they have to filter their reality and confirm it through you so you can correct anything that might be detrimental to them. Once this is established it is easier to use many of the other methods.

Another method is the parent/child relationship. This is more usually (but not always) done by the mother. Mom loses it or behaves badly. If the child mentions it mom denies it ever happened and possibly even punishes the child for telling lies. This is sometimes also used in child abuse to try to convince the child it never happened.

Another method is rare but it is just blatantly lying. This can be done in a cult environment and sometimes in a political one and in family and social relationships, a situation where you want to be loyal. The person (often in authority) blatantly lies. It is obvious they are lying but they don't stop when caught or called out. They just keep going. The lies are often pointless but since you spend so much time listening to them you begin to lose touch with reality and start to believe it a little even while you imagine you are skeptical. A similar phenomenon is just denying repeatedly that which the other person should know for sure is true or for which there is overwhelming evidence. These techniques are used to weaken someone wanting to leave a cult or relationship or sometimes to become President of the United States. A variant is just trying to convince the person that everyone else is always lying.

One insidious form is to undermine all your support structures. Turn you against your family, your friends, your children, your faith, your convictions, whatever. It is done most often by playing Iago and trying to convince them their lover is unfaithful, their friends secretly despise them, their convictions are entirely from self-interest or "brainwashing", and the like.

Some class the abuser building you up with flattery and then tearing you down in a neverending cycle as gaslighting. It makes you dependent and you do not leave because sometimes it will be all right and the abuser is usually sincere when flattering and trying to build you up but Hyde will come out again.

Most of these behaviors occur normally in a very limited sense especially in children but for most guilt does not let it last long. A child denying something you watched them do. A spouse telling you you are nuts for doing something. A friend with a crush speaking badly about your SO in the hopes it will break you up (a good example of pretending you are building them up when you are crushing them). Things like that. These methods do not involve master planning of Machiavellian genius. They are naturally learned because they work. Some become addicted to them. Some kill their sense of empathy and some are just narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths.

Edited June 27, 2019 by The Nehor

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, Raskolnikov said:

I was trying to articulate another reason why gas lighting may occur. The term gaslighting focuses on the results of the action, not the purpose. 

The result which is to render the person unsure of themselves.

[SettingDogStar]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

or to become President of the United States

I spit out my water when I read that. I agree as well. There's a reason people call us "mormons" out for being a cult. We often just believe anything that is said at the "top" even if it isn't totally true or historically inaccurate, even if it was by accident or just poor wording. Gas lighting and successfully changing someones perception of reality eventually leads to cognitive dissonance and a whole bunch of other fun stuff..

[The Nehor]

Just now, SettingDogStar said:

I spit out my water when I read that. I agree as well. There's a reason people call us "mormons" out for being a cult. We often just believe anything that is said at the "top" even if it isn't totally true or historically inaccurate, even if it was by accident or just poor wording. Gas lighting and successfully changing someones perception of reality eventually leads to cognitive dissonance and a whole bunch of other fun stuff..

The best antidote to that danger in the church in general (and mistakes are made) and sometimes life in general is the Holy Ghost. That and watch for the kind of person you are dealing with. I don't worry about it much in the church because I have seen no evidence that the leadership has an agenda to control or break me.

The most common area to watch for it is relationships, particularly romantic ones. It also works in some families, particularly the families who loudly and vociferously teach each other and especially the children that they have to stick together at all costs no matter what anyone does.

[The Nehor]

Oh, I forgot another common one, particularly in romantic relationships. Accusing the other person repeatedly of doing the things you are actually doing (cheating, stealing, flirting). It keeps the other person on the defensive so if they catch something suspicious about you the whole discussion has been normalized and they can throw their own suspicions right back. Many of my non-LDS friends have a rule. If your SO starts accusing you of cheating with no reason for suspicion it almost always means they are cheating. If they are not, they are insecure. End the relationship either way.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

............................. Many of my non-LDS friends have a rule. If your SO starts accusing you of cheating with no reason for suspicion it almost always means they are cheating. If they are not, they are insecure. End the relationship either way.

Just extrapolating:  Does that mean that, if I doubt my own faith (am insecure), that I am gaslit?  Then should I end my relationship with that faith?  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Just extrapolating:  Does that mean that, if I doubt my own faith (am insecure), that I am gaslit?  Then should I end my relationship with that faith?  

Gaslighting generally needs an active person doing the undermining or sowing the self-doubt so only if your faith or god is actively and directly confusing and undermining your confidence. If that is happening it is probably Loki and you should probably just gear up for Ragnarok.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Your definition of gaslighting is significantly different than the defined term, "manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity."  The intent of gaslighting is to make you think you are have lost your mind and cannot trust yourself. What you are defining does not match the definition. 

Then some on this thread are gaslighting, lol!