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Duncan

Church series on P*** use, 70 videos

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I disagree. The best way to help an addict is for the addict to want out. Putting the burden on their family members to get educated and “help them” is unfair and rarely works. It could even be argued that the best way to help an unrepentant addict is to let them hit “rock bottom” faster. 

 

Allowing them to hit rock bottom is supporting the spouse - a wife who has never worked, cannot support her children, and cannot therefore kick him out?  I've seen it.  People who cannot establish boundaries for themselves?  enable it?  seen that too.  

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Just now, changed said:

 

I know someone who went to jail for it, then under house arrest with no internet - years and years, and yes.  They still have problems, even after being physically separated from it for years.  They were suicidal, starved themselves half to death - you would not believe the treatments they have gone through - old and grey - and it is still very much there.  

The reality is, it does not go away.  

For some this may be true but it is not true of all or even most. Sounds as well like you are talking about someone guilty of child pornography or something else particularly deviant. Based on behavior I would also suspect other comorbid mental illnesses. This is not the average porn addict/alcoholic/drug abuser.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

For some this may be true but it is not true of all or even most. Sounds as well like you are talking about someone guilty of child pornography or something else particularly deviant. Based on behavior I would also suspect other comorbid mental illnesses. This is not the average porn addict/alcoholic/drug abuser.

so you are going to disagree with the video in the OP?  cuz... he was all "it's there or it isn't, black and white" kind of a thing - haha...

Edited by changed

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1 minute ago, changed said:

 

Allowing them to hit rock bottom is supporting the spouse - a wife who has never worked, cannot support her children, and cannot therefore kick him out?  I've seen it.  People who cannot establish boundaries for themselves?  enable it?  seen that too.  

Some times. Too often thought the spouse supporting the addict means covering up for them, trying to be both parents, financially supporting the addiction, etc. We do have that kind of support but many are afraid to run to a shelter.

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Just now, The Nehor said:

Some times. Too often thought the spouse supporting the addict means covering up for them, trying to be both parents, financially supporting the addiction, etc. We do have that kind of support but many are afraid to run to a shelter.

They should not be the ones running to a shelter - send the damn addict to the shelter - kick them out of the house.  

Yep - the wife and kids think they are supposed to leave???? wrong - they stay - he leaves.  Enable them to kick the guy out of the house.  

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Young women. 

We have discussed this in our stake as well. This is not primarily a gendered issue, even though many Western cultural assumptions prime people to assume it is.

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3 minutes ago, changed said:

so you are going to disagree with the video in the OP?  cuz... he was all "it's there or it isn't, black and white" kind of a thing - haha...

No, he was cautioning against the idea that casual use is not sinful. Whether you are an addict or not it drives away the Spirit. I was discussing methods of treatment and those depend on the circumstances that led to it and how it is being consumed now. Both kinds need repenting and he is right: for the sin the antidote is the same. To prevent recidivism or to stop the methods and strategies used will differ based on the more tactical “whys”  and “hows” of consumption.

6 minutes ago, changed said:

They should not be the ones running to a shelter - send the damn addict to the shelter - kick them out of the house.  

Yep - the wife and kids think they are supposed to leave???? wrong - they stay - he leaves.  Enable them to kick the guy out of the house.  

It would be very difficult to craft a law not vulnerable to severe abuse that would enable this process to work. That being said this would be more ideal if it could be correctly and fairly implemented but I doubt it can be. The United States (and many other nations) have laws prohibiting expelling residents from a residence outside of criminal matters and many addicts do not perform criminal acts. These laws are there for a good reason but I do dislike them in this instance.

6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

We have discussed this in our stake as well. This is not primarily a gendered issue, even though many Western cultural assumptions prime people to assume it is.

This is also true.

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6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If they got super creative they could pay to have those 70 videos pop up when people search the top 100 p**** search words. That would be something :) 

If Ammon can bring people to Christ by disarming his foes, I'm sure we can bring people to Christ when they search for porn

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20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It would be very difficult to craft a law not vulnerable to severe abuse that would enable this process to work. That being said this would be more ideal if it could be correctly and fairly implemented but I doubt it can be. The United States (and many other nations) have laws prohibiting expelling residents from a residence outside of criminal matters and many addicts do not perform criminal acts. These laws are there for a good reason but I do dislike them in this instance.

 

I have kicked a "resident" out.  He knew he was guilty, and went willingly without calling the cops.  If it was an established cultural norm - if family of addicts knew it was an option, if it would be a supported option (bishop would also use their authority to 'suggest' the abuser leave etc.)  that would be a good step in the right direction.  

In any event, the #1 priority for all of this should not be the health and well-being of the addict - it should be the health and well-being of the family and spouse of that addict.  The #1 priority should be evident on how many resources are provided to each - addicts are called in for interviews once a week or so?  how about calling family members in once a week to ask how they are doing?  Souses and family members are largely ignored - the addict gets attention and everyone loves attention so.... 

 

...NCMO?

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30 minutes ago, changed said:

 

I have kicked a "resident" out.  He knew he was guilty, and went willingly without calling the cops.  If it was an established cultural norm - if family of addicts knew it was an option, if it would be a supported option (bishop would also use their authority to 'suggest' the abuser leave etc.)  that would be a good step in the right direction.  

In any event, the #1 priority for all of this should not be the health and well-being of the addict - it should be the health and well-being of the family and spouse of that addict.  The #1 priority should be evident on how many resources are provided to each - addicts are called in for interviews once a week or so?  how about calling family members in once a week to ask how they are doing?  Souses and family members are largely ignored - the addict gets attention and everyone loves attention so.... 

 

...NCMO?

I am glad it worked out in that case. If you can come up with a way to change western cultural norms let me know. There is a lot of good things we can change.

Weekly interviews with victims? Do they want that much attention? Addicts do not generally love attention about their addiction.

 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am glad it worked out in that case. If you can come up with a way to change western cultural norms let me know. There is a lot of good things we can change.

Weekly interviews with victims? Do they want that much attention? Addicts do not generally love attention about their addiction.

 

 

For every interview and "checking in" and support group that is provided for addicts - the same, and more should be provided to family members.  The greatest amount of pain and heartache - the greatest amount of support needed - is for family members, not addicts.  

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not believe this. It is bad medicine. The idea that every form of habitual problem and addiction will somehow last forever and must be actively fought forever is morbid and comes from the 12 step program which encourages perpetual “recovery” which is something of an oxymoron since recovery is supposedly never achieved. Since the program was based on religion it seems to imagine a God who wants to keep you over the barrel for the rest of your life paranoid you are perpetually one missed prayer or support meeting from rock bottom. 20 years after your last drink, hit, or porn clip you need to attend weekly meetings to make sure you stay clean? Really? It seems designed to make sure you never move on.

There is no "once saved, always saved" in Mormonism.  Recovery is like repentance.  You always need to repent, but it is not "forever."  Just in this life.

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Of course falling into an addiction again is always possible but the same is true of people who have never been addicted.

People who have thankfully never used drugs, alcohol, etc., are seldom tempted as strongly as the addict or former-addict.  The triggers aren't there.

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, that can't be. Here in Davis County??

No just Davis county has been isolated from the world  and designated as Zion, and has already been translated.

Perhaps you just didn't notice.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Cfr that regular porn use is an irreparable  behavior

I agree that it’s not. While we might repent of things all our life, we don’t truly repent of something until it is cast out and the Savior heals us. If that has not occurred, repentance has not been finished. If the atonement is actually infinite then to say any sin is irreparable (with one exception) is blasphemy really 💁‍♂️

Edited by SettingDogStar
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36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No just Davis county has been isolated from the world  and designated as Zion, and has already been translated.

Perhaps you just didn't notice.

It must suck to have been 'left behind' ...

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4 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

 If the atonement is actually infinite then to say any sin is irreparable (with one exception) is blasphemy really 💁‍♂️

And that one exception is, in reality, just a stubborn refusal to accept the Atonement or the offer of forgiveness.

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1 hour ago, changed said:

For every interview and "checking in" and support group that is provided for addicts - the same, and more should be provided to family members.  The greatest amount of pain and heartache - the greatest amount of support needed - is for family members, not addicts.  

I believe that the pain and heartache are intense on all sides. I would argue that often the addict is more responsible for the pain and heartache but they usually suffer as much as those they hurt.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no "once saved, always saved" in Mormonism.  Recovery is like repentance.  You always need to repent, but it is not "forever."  Just in this life.

Well, actually there is. It is just not spoken about much and while I would not say anything is impossible I doubt it often comes close to conversion.

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

People who have thankfully never used drugs, alcohol, etc., are seldom tempted as strongly as the addict or former-addict.  The triggers aren't there.

This depends a lot on the individual. I knew a guy with severe ADHD who was, to all appearances, addicted to cocaine and some other stuff. He hated the stuff but cocaine mitigated the symptoms and made him functional. Once he got switched over to prescription medication that could let him function without the high and side effects he was never tempted again. I have seen similar transformations with alcoholics. I do agree though that generally a former addict might be more tempted but then again, they also know the pain that can attend that choice better then someone who has never used. So not sure.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Helping addicts not hurt or to stop hurting others would be considered as a plus, I would think.  Isn't it better to protect from getting hurt  in the first place rather than providing the healing from pain later?

Yes, but in my experience those close to addicts often will not get away. It is often done out of love or sometimes codependence masquerading as love.

24 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I agree that it’s not. While we might repent of things all our life, we don’t truly repent of something until it is cast out and the Savior heals us. If that has not occurred, repentance has not been finished. If the atonement is actually infinite then to say any sin is irreparable (with one exception) is blasphemy really 💁‍♂️

I would argue that all sins are reparable as the atonement is infinite. The reason that denying the Holy Ghost is called irreparable is not that the atonement could not repair it. I believe it could. I believe if Lucifer threw down his arms and repented he would be forgiven but our choices change us and it is possible to choose to kill off the impetus for light/good/virtue completely enough that there is not enough left to induce the person to repent. Or, as one guy put it: "They could repent if they would but they can't so they won't."

20 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And that one exception is, in reality, just a stubborn refusal to accept the Atonement or the offer of forgiveness.

Pretty much. It is to become something less then human (or spirit).

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4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

but in my experience those close to addicts often will not get away

Then it makes even more sense to support the addict in healing so those close do not have to suffer because of them. 

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Then it makes even more sense to support the addict in healing so those close do not have to suffer because of them. 

If you can. A lot depends on the addict. If they voluntarily seek help (through the bishop or through rehab or through a therapist or whatever) then the prognosis is usually pretty good. If they are dragged in reluctantly after they are caught.....prognosis is not so good. Sadly some people imagine a bishop interview will start the cure for anyone and it is not true.

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12 hours ago, changed said:

Do you know what I would like to see?  70 videos for those who have been abused with links to professional therapists, and and legal support for those needing to put abusers in jail.  

Yes.  I’d also like to see 70 videos for family members who have been estranged by their loved ones who suffer with compulsive behaviors.  I would also like to see 70 videos on how to put a family back together who have been shattered by the loss of a loved one through suicide.  There are many tentacles to this problem.  The Church’s approach seems to be to apply the healing balm of the Atonement of Jesus Christ through a number of resources including Family Addiction Support group and many high quality videos and articles.  I am glad the Church is not sitting on its hands doing nothing.  They seem to be carefully replacing old approaches with thoughtful new ones. I haven’t seen any on estrangement or suicide yet, which are sad and real  Those are two I’d love to find and watch.

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Some people in the church tend to call anyone who has master bated more than a handful of times an addict. 

Can we talk about how ridiculous that tendency is? How shaming it is and how much serves to perpetuate repetition? 

The best thing therapy can do for spouses and families is teach them it’s not about them. 

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3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Some people in the church tend to call anyone who has master bated more than a handful of times an addict.

I am curious as to how many people you know who actually do this.  It is not like people go around asking others about their frequency.  And if just speaking in general, got to wonder how the topic comes up at church as I can’t remember if I have ever had that kind of discussion at church. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am curious as to how many people you know who actually do this.  It is not like people go around asking others about their frequency.  And if just speaking in general, got to wonder how the topic comes up at church as I can’t remember if I have ever had that kind of discussion at church. 

Edited to say several. 

 

Edited by MustardSeed

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