Church series on P*** use, 70 videos

[changed]

37 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

OK. 

 

Look up the number of support groups for abusers in your area, and then look at the number of groups for victims.  It is about 3 to 1, 3 groups for abusers to only 1 group for victims.  Why is this?  

[webbles]

16 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Look up the number of support groups for abusers in your area, and then look at the number of groups for victims.  It is about 3 to 1, 3 groups for abusers to only 1 group for victims.  Why is this?  

Probably because the spouses don't see the need for going spousal support groups.  I understand that a lot of times, the spouse believes the problem is with their addict spouse and so the addict needs to go to the group to be fixed.  There just isn't a demand for more support groups.  As I mentioned earlier, the church is advertising them through the stakes.  We had both an addict and his wife tell us about both groups and invited anyone to attend that wanted to.

Also, they are not "support groups for abusers".  They are "addiction recovery groups".  They are meant to ensure that the addict stops hiding the fact that they have an addiction and to make sure that they follow the 12 steps to heal.  When I hear "support groups", I think of people trying to improve your moral and pat your back.  That isn't the purpose of those meetings.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Spouses of porn users are my main concern - it feels the same as adultery does, and they should be proactively sought after to provide help to.  

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  

I saw a study of committed couples among faculty and staff at a university. The mean relationship length was 9 years with couples scoring a 6.2 out of 7 on a relationship commitment scale. Of those surveyed, 98% of the men and 78% of the women had fantasies about someone other than their partner in the past two months (and those were just the ones who admitted it). I think you are making too many “victims” of adultery here. 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/3813261?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Edited June 27, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[SeekingUnderstanding]

duplicate

Edited June 27, 2019 by SeekingUnderstanding

[BlueDreams]

23 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Could the problem be the church? Their way of handling the porn issue, since there are so many in the church with the issue? Is it a dumb suggestion to say to the church to back off of these videos about porn? Back off of these constant talks? Is there the possibility that some that weren't interested or young enough not to know what porn means, to look it up and then it gets started? Or the question in bishop's interviews about the M word and the porn word, causing young youth to look into it and then try it and the next interview they confess and then it starts the shame game and it evolves into these addictions. 

“The” problem can’t be narrowed to one entity. High religiousity is tied to greater shame toward p-viewing. That much is true. And there are ways that people in the church (and the general leaders, especially back in the day) have put heavy shame messages that have made it worse. There are things that we still do that I think at this point are becoming more cultural than procedural that gives the false impression that viewing p*rn is more of a problem than say lying or any other sin (sans murder and denying the HG). Far from being quiet about it, i think it’s better to talk about it, just in a way that’s more productive and less shaming. I view the site i linked to a positive step in that direction. 

Though there may be things that the church or it’s members do that don’t help or can exacerbate a problem, they didn’t cause the problem. It is very rare that i hear of someone who heard the term P*rn or m*sturbation from a leader and got curious. More often they were introduced well before then and when they did finally connect it with the terms they then felt terrible, if they didn’t already. Introduction to porn is happening at younger and younger ages and with easier access than ever before. There’s serious concerns about this outside of a religious context. For example one concern is that there’s evidence it’s shifting s*xual behavior of youth to more extreme sexual behaviors. There’s also a concern that p*rn often functions as teens only s*x ed. This isn’t solely a church concern and it’s hard to measure the effect porn has on our societies because it’s so prevalent at this point and a number of other cultural trends are intertwined or running parallel with the development of p*rn. 

13 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

People are quick to shut you down, and yet I have wondered the same thing. 

We apparently have not succeeded in the church regarding curbing porn use. So whether it’s the churches fault per se or not, we aren’t doing things right yet. 

My bishop is a friend first and he was telling me of a guy who had life long porn behaviors and since he was not allowed to participate in the gospel he left, and when he left, the porn went away.  ******Anecdotal to be sure but it got me thinking, and I’m still thinking. 

I have seen more of the trend that Calm referred to in the research than i have this. It does happen...usually when their p*rn use is almost entirely shame-induced and their religious voices are the main or only source for shame towards p. But that condition is rare. It’s more common to see people distance themselves from church to mitigate feeling bad about something they can’t seem to get rid of. They can’t remove the p*rn so they begin to remove the religion. Most the time I don’t think its a conscious decision to do so though.

 

with luv,

Bd

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, changed said:

 

Spouses of porn users are my main concern - it feels the same as adultery does, and they should be proactively sought after to provide help to.  

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  

 

As for younger users, date rape - and assaults are way high in college and HS - so yes, there are quite a few young victims.  ~25% of women are sexually assaulted, that is how large the problem is.  

 That is not always true. The effect p*rn has on a relationship is heavily dependent on how the couple view and interact with the p*rn. Some spouses do not feel betrayed at all. Some do initially experience it as a marital betrayal. Most are somewhere in the middle.

 

and assault rates are not equivalent to porn use. 

 

With luv, 

BD

 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

Look up the number of support groups for abusers in your area, and then look at the number of groups for victims.  It is about 3 to 1, 3 groups for abusers to only 1 group for victims.  Why is this?  

You just cannot stop calling all addicts abusers can you?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, changed said:

there are quite a few young victims.

So every last addict in your view must also be an abuser?  It is not possible for an addict not to have victims?

Edited June 27, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, changed said:

 

Spouses of porn users are my main concern - it feels the same as adultery does, and they should be proactively sought after to provide help to.  

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.  

 

As for younger users, date rape - and assaults are way high in college and HS - so yes, there are quite a few young victims.  ~25% of women are sexually assaulted, that is how large the problem is.  

Our support group invites loved ones of people with compulsive sexual behaviors such as porn. Not many come, but those who do find a safe and helpful place. We cannot force them to come. 

[MustardSeed]

I don’t think it’s helpful to refer to peripheral family members as victims when another family member watches porn. 

It’s really the porn persons issue, and has nothing to do with the other people. 

 

The real betrayal is in the lies and dishonesty.

Bust the shame and poof- no more need for lies. The issue becomes one individuals struggle. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Our support group invites loved ones of people with compulsive sexual behaviors such as porn. Not many come, but those who do find a safe and helpful place. We cannot force them to come. 

Beautiful! 

Shame runs deep in our culture *****IMO*****.  I don’t blame God or the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  It’s our humanness that is responsible imo.

If we can shrink shame, more people would attend. Imo. 

Secrecy fuels shame,  shame fuels acting out, acting out fuels secrecy in a shame based society, vicious cycle. 

People leave the church so not to feel shame.  What can be done to provide an alternative? 

Edited June 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

16 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t think it’s helpful to refer to peripheral family members as victims when another family member watches porn. 

It’s really the porn persons issue, and has nothing to do with the other people. 

 

The real betrayal is in the lies and dishonesty.

Bust the shame and poof- no more need for lies. The issue becomes one individuals struggle. 

Love your post!

In my mind I imagined a scenario that just might do the trick. Treat it lightly with the loved one, such as in a loving teasing way. "What's the latest porn flick today, hon? Then a kiss on the cheek. Just treat it like no big deal, instead of acting as if that loved one's spirit is gone, or their light. 

People need to back off and not mention that someone is addicted, it only adds fuel to the addiction. I'm no expert, but wonder if a light hearted approach is best. 

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Love your post!

In my mind I imagined a scenario that just might do the trick. Treat it lightly with the loved one, such as in a loving teasing way. "What's the latest porn flick today, hon? Then a kiss on the cheek. Just treat it like no big deal, instead of acting as if that loved one's spirit is gone, or their light. 

People need to back off and not mention that someone is addicted, it only adds fuel to the addiction. I'm no expert, but wonder if a light hearted approach is best. 

I love your creativity- keep thinking

i think you’re on the right path, with demonstrating non punitive love. 

Its a balance IMO to maintain clarity that porn is not good.  Porn is self serving, immediate, absolute variety... all the things that can rob connection. 

To be as playful as you suggest can send messages to everyone that porn is no big deal.  It’s a really big deal....but how to maintain that clarity and still not be punitive.?

[Kenngo1969]

40 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t think it’s helpful to refer to peripheral family members as victims when another family member watches porn. 

It’s really the porn persons issue, and has nothing to do with the other people. ...

In some ways, perhaps, you're correct.  For one thing, not everyone who views p*rn*graphy is addicted to it.  For another, yes, ultimately, whatever the problem is (and whether the person is "addicted" or not), it is that person's issue.  And whatever behavior anyone else engages in, whether I'm a "victim" of that behavior or not, at least in some ways, is up to me.  And the cloak of "victim" is awfully fashionable and comfortable these days: So many people seem to want to wear it that perhaps it is losing its emotional impact.  Sometimes, it seems as though we live in a society in which many are perfectly willing to try to find psychological, sociological, and other justifications even for the most horribly aberrant, abhorrent behavior, on the one hand, while being perfectly willing to make someone a complete social outcast (e.g., expelling the person from school, firing him from his job, harassing him anytime he appears in public, et cetera) simply for using the wrong word or for having the wrong opinion, on the other hand.

That said, for those who are addicted, you're attempting to swim upstream against a swift, decades-old current and paradigm in addiction recovery.  One of the twelve steps (and forgive me: I neither have them memorized nor do I have them in front of me at the moment) is to acknowledge how one's behavior has hurt others and, insofar as possible, to make amends.  If you don't want to label the people hurt by another's behavior as "victims" of the person's behavior, OK, but, largely, that might be a matter of simple semantics.  To-may-to, to-mah-to, po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

So, yes, you're correct that sometimes the "victim" card is vastly overplayed, but other times, it's not.

P.S.: Many times, the only difference between someone who's addicted and someone who's not is the choice of coping mechanism.  "There, but for the grace of God, go I," and so forth.  In any event, none of us can make it halfway through this life, or into the next, without the Savior.

Edited June 27, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I love your creativity- keep thinking

i think you’re on the right path, with demonstrating non punitive love. 

Its a balance IMO to maintain clarity that porn is not good.  Porn is self serving, immediate, absolute variety... all the things that can rob connection. 

To be as playful as you suggest can send messages to everyone that porn is no big deal.  It’s a really big deal....but how to maintain that clarity and still not be punitive.?

Agree, I hate it when a man at my husband's work sends him a porn pic through text just for fun. So I'm not the lady that is in my made up scenario. I get very irate about the man sending them. But in my scenario the discussion has already concluded that porn is bad, even through the lightheatedness. 

I have an addiction to diet dr. pepper, when people come down hard on me for it, like my kids, it doesn't make me want to quit. Or my lack of wanting to get on a treadmill, to my husband's urging, doesn't help when he asks me if I walked on it that day. Maybe if he said it lightheartedly it would grind on me still, so maybe my scenario or idea is dumb, lol. 

I guess everyone is sloshing around to get to the bottom of this epidemic. My grandsons are staying a couple of days with me. They both have phones, I do worry about what they can watch on them. Hopefully naked bodies and sex scenes don't turn them on as much as youtube's for kids or video games!

 

 

[The Nehor]

31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Love your post!

In my mind I imagined a scenario that just might do the trick. Treat it lightly with the loved one, such as in a loving teasing way. "What's the latest porn flick today, hon? Then a kiss on the cheek. Just treat it like no big deal, instead of acting as if that loved one's spirit is gone, or their light. 

People need to back off and not mention that someone is addicted, it only adds fuel to the addiction. I'm no expert, but wonder if a light hearted approach is best. 

A lighter approach is probably better but I think you go too far off the other side of the horse by trivializing it. When they screw up the best response is probably a hug and a show of support as opposed to a solemn conversation (though these need to happen too especially in the beginning).

One of the keys to defeating porn is to try to remove the conception that  the porn user’s use means the spouse is not enough. The impulses for porn and for a healthy marital sex life come from two different places. It is true the former can poison or eclipse the latter (and that is probably doom) but it also poisons a lot of other relationships and the user themself. If the spouse can hold on to their self confidence and not see porn as competition they will be happier, more confident, and more able to help if that is the path they choose to take. Too often the spouse’s response is to shut down, hide, and just hurt and I do not blame them for doing so. If the user is trying to repent and the spouse can hold on to themselves the prognosis is good.

If the user just hides it, only confesses because they were caught and fear the consequences of possible divorce, and tries to justify or normalize it or drag the spouse in......that will not end well.

Whenever I am tempted to trivialize porn use I think of a friend who got married to a guy while I was on my mission. Vivacious, fun, deeply spiritual, and full of life and a very compassionate girl. When I got back she seemed so broken. It took a while before I could figure out what happened but She eventually told me her husband was a clinical addict and would routinely pull up extreme videos and insist they watch them together and act them out. He started slow but kept escalating despite her resistance and pleas. She was not sure whether to feel relieved or rejected when his porn consumption all but completely ended their intimate life. She felt worthless and humiliated. Eventually she did divorce him and moved back to live with her family. I hope she is doing better now. This was an extreme case involving bonafide addiction and not a common case but still, porn can ruin lives and even if it does not ruin them completely, it sucks joy out of life.

As a single guy I can also report that there are a disturbing number of female profiles on LDS dating sites that have a “no porn” proviso. Not hard to guess the history there.

[The Nehor]

35 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Beautiful! 

Shame runs deep in our culture *****IMO*****.  I don’t blame God or the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  It’s our humanness that is responsible imo.

If we can shrink shame, more people would attend. Imo. 

Secrecy fuels shame,  shame fuels acting out, acting out fuels secrecy in a shame based society, vicious cycle. 

People leave the church so not to feel shame.  What can be done to provide an alternative? 

There is a dangerous tightrope to navigate. To bring it out we have to back down on vilifying it too much so people can get help but avoid trivializing or normalizing it to the point that it is “no big deal”.

To use an analogy I think the scarlet letter is a little extreme as punishment for adultery and cheating but I also distrust the modern trend where cheating and adultery do not carry any public scorn at all and you can just carry on as before. If I were to cheat on my wife and a friend thought it was “no big deal” I think I would lose respect for the friend and probably pity their spouse.

Proviso: I do not want to compare adultery and porn use as if they are equal in severity. I consider adultery to be much more serious.

[MustardSeed]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is a dangerous tightrope to navigate. To bring it out we have to back down on vilifying it too much so people can get help but avoid trivializing or normalizing it to the point that it is “no big deal”.

To use an analogy I think the scarlet letter is a little extreme as punishment for adultery and cheating but I also distrust the modern trend where cheating and adultery do not carry any public scorn at all and you can just carry on as before. If I were to cheat on my wife and a friend thought it was “no big deal” I think I would lose respect for the friend and probably pity their spouse.

Proviso: I do not want to compare adultery and porn use as if they are equal in severity. I consider adultery to be much more serious.

Shame is not required in knowing that something is dangerous.Shame and guilt can be two different things.

 

Edited June 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Shame is not required in knowing that something is dangerous.Shame and guilt can be two different things.

 

I did not use either word. Not sure I follow.

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I did not use either word. Not sure I follow.

Often on this site , responding to a quote by referencing the quote suggests argument.  

Not the case here, I was simply expanding the conversation. I agree with everything you said.  

Edited June 27, 2019 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A lighter approach is probably better but I think you go too far off the other side of the horse by trivializing it. When they screw up the best response is probably a hug and a show of support as opposed to a solemn conversation (though these need to happen too especially in the beginning).

One of the keys to defeating porn is to try to remove the conception that  the porn user’s use means the spouse is not enough. The impulses for porn and for a healthy marital sex life come from two different places. It is true the former can poison or eclipse the latter (and that is probably doom) but it also poisons a lot of other relationships and the user themself. If the spouse can hold on to their self confidence and not see porn as competition they will be happier, more confident, and more able to help if that is the path they choose to take. Too often the spouse’s response is to shut down, hide, and just hurt and I do not blame them for doing so. If the user is trying to repent and the spouse can hold on to themselves the prognosis is good.

If the user just hides it, only confesses because they were caught and fear the consequences of possible divorce, and tries to justify or normalize it or drag the spouse in......that will not end well.

Whenever I am tempted to trivialize porn use I think of a friend who got married to a guy while I was on my mission. Vivacious, fun, deeply spiritual, and full of life and a very compassionate girl. When I got back she seemed so broken. It took a while before I could figure out what happened but She eventually told me her husband was a clinical addict and would routinely pull up extreme videos and insist they watch them together and act them out. He started slow but kept escalating despite her resistance and pleas. She was not sure whether to feel relieved or rejected when his porn consumption all but completely ended their intimate life. She felt worthless and humiliated. Eventually she did divorce him and moved back to live with her family. I hope she is doing better now. This was an extreme case involving bonafide addiction and not a common case but still, porn can ruin lives and even if it does not ruin them completely, it sucks joy out of life.

As a single guy I can also report that there are a disturbing number of female profiles on LDS dating sites that have a “no porn” proviso. Not hard to guess the history there.

Opinion here.  The primary problem with your friends husband appears to be his controlling behavior.  Pornography was the vehicle.  His pornography obsession may have perpetuated his control issues but she would do well to focus on that- unfortunately many women obsess about the pornography aspect of the story and see themselves as porn victims.  It’s my opinion that this reduces women. 

[changed]

13 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Our support group invites loved ones of people with compulsive sexual behaviors such as porn. Not many come, but those who do find a safe and helpful place. We cannot force them to come. 

 

It is a support group where both addicts and family members are supposed to come?  I would feel very uncomfortable in a mixed group like that.

Wish I had a support group where I am.

Edited June 27, 2019 by changed

[changed]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

So every last addict in your view must also be an abuser?  It is not possible for an addict not to have victims?

The two tend to go hand -in - hand.  Define victim - unless the addict is a hermit with no family ties, their actions will hurt those around them.  

[changed]

14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You just cannot stop calling all addicts abusers can you?

 

"I'm not hurting anyone" is the lie that so very many abusers hang on to... 

 

... NCMO??? really??? or did what came up while googling not fit?

[changed]

15 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 That is not always true. The effect p*rn has on a relationship is heavily dependent on how the couple view and interact with the p*rn. Some spouses do not feel betrayed at all. Some do initially experience it as a marital betrayal. Most are somewhere in the middle.

and assault rates are not equivalent to porn use. 

With luv, 

BD

 

 

For couples where both use porn it is not a big deal.  For most in the church who want a different type of relationship, yes, it is a big deal for those who value loyalty.  

Assault is very much tied to porn - porn is like a gateway drug.