Mystery

[3DOP]

A side discussion has developed on another thread that is not related to the topic of the thread. It seemed to me that the subject warrants the interest that seemed to be generated. I am not sure where this thread will go, but intend to begin by attempting to define the importance of the idea of "mystery" to everyone. I have a book before me which I have consulted occasionally but never read completely. It is called the Mysteries of Christianity,  by Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeeben, a German Catholic. There is a short biography about him in the Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13525b.htm

I would like to begin with some quotations from Fr. Scheeben which attempt to describe why mystery is a gift that should be treasured by everyone. This will be from his Introduction called, The Mystery in General, in the Second Revised Edition first published in German in 1888. My English version is from B. Herder Book Company, published in 1946. All quotes and page numbers in this thread will be from that edition unless otherwise noted.

"The greatest charm in knowledge is astonishment, surprise, wonderment." p.5 

"In a word, the charm of truth is proportionate to its abstruseness and mystery. Must not Christianity, too, be especially valuable and dear to us because of the mysteries it involves? And indeed is it not all the more precious the greater are the mysteries which it harbors within itself? Does not Christianity impress us so powerfully just because it is one vast mystery, because it is the greatest of mysteries, the mystery of God?" p. 5

To a question raised by Bernard Gui on the other thread about mystery being beautiful, Fr. Scheeben clarifies:

"Fundamentally, of course, it is not the obscurity engulfing an object that makes the mystery so highly prized and attractive for us. Our souls, born of Light and destined for Light, flee darkness and long for light...Why does the dawn exercise so enchanting an influence over us, why does it charm us more than the full light of day? Not because the light is mixed with darkness, but rather because it disperses the darkness that surrounded us, and brings in its train the light we have yearned for so long and so earnestly, and because our anxious hearts are cheered by the ever-glowing glories of the sun." pp.5 and 6

"What captivates us is the emergence of a light that had been hidden from us. Mysteries must in themselves be lucid, glorious truths." p. 6

"There must be truths that baffle our scrutiny not because of their intrinsic darkness and confusion, but because of their excessive brilliance, sublimity, and beauty, which not even the sturdiest human eye can encounter without going blind." p. 6

(Maybe I should just type out the whole book? Heh. There are only 790 more pages of this kind of reflection on mystery in Christianity, after the introduction about the value of mystery in general. Following the introduction are ten "parts" each dedicated to a particular Christian Mystery. I tried to find a pdf file online, but failed.)

I have one more quote for now.

"...an essential characteristic of the knowledge we have of a thing is an awareness of the imperfection, deficiency, and obscurity of that knowledge; we do not deceive ourselves that the little we perceive is all that can be perceived...All true philosophers have quite rightly considered the consciousness of lack of knowledge as an essential factor of true knowledge." (emphasis mine), p. 8

See you after Mass.

Rory

Edited June 23, 2019 by 3DOP

[JAHS]

 

Rather than use the word "mystery", I just like to say it is something God has not yet revealed.
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is simply beautiful and beautifully simple.” (Mathew Cowley)
 

[rpn]

Might be a mystery to an individual or a family or a culture, but plain and simple from Him.  

(I think the "mystery" analysis was created to explain the distortions or absence of doctrine that developed.   We don't believe that there is anything in the Gospel that is unknowable inherently do we?)

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, rpn said:

Might be a mystery to an individual or a family or a culture, but plain and simple from Him.  

(I think the "mystery" analysis was created to explain the distortions or absence of doctrine that developed.   We don't believe that there is anything in the Gospel that is unknowable inherently do we?)

I suspect that there are truths that are not comprehensible to mortal minds that those in the eternal worlds delight in knowing.

There are also mysteries to be won in the gospel that are not generally revealed but given to individual members to bring them comfort, joy, and awe.

[Maidservant]

I think that 'mystery' is, at the very least, not mainly to denote what will not be revealed; but to denote what IS to be revealed.

The process of revelation connotes as well a process of progression and becoming.  It is not simply that our brains carry more information and explanation, but that our Being is taking step by step stages.  These stages may not all have that much in common, in the sense that a newborn baby is not expected to be like an adult (except that it is--a paradox).  This progression element is important because we could very well be able to identify and speak about a mystery--such as charity.  It's not that God's love is a 'state secret'.  But do we know it?  Is it in us yet?  That's the mystery--the taking on and in godliness to ourselves in real time (through the grace of CHRIST).

I would also submit that these stages, while they may be passed through and attained more or less organically, that in the Book of Mormon and New Testament tradition, it speaks to a ritualistic progression (ordinances etc) that match the real time progression; or at least previews it, because it will take a long time to flower and fruit seeds planted ritualistically.  But the rituals give the map to the real time revelation/becoming of the mysteries.

[3DOP]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

 

Rather than use the word "mystery", I just like to say it is something God has not yet revealed.
“The gospel of Jesus Christ is simply beautiful and beautifully simple.” (Mathew Cowley)
 

So I can't tell if you agree or disagree with the author I have cited. I tend to think you disagree, since you seem to have a little aversion to the word "mystery". That something is simple does not to my mind preclude mystery. I hold that God is simple and mysterious. Let me just ask, do you think simplicity precludes mystery? Or put another way, do you think the gospel of Jesus Christ (simply beautiful and beautifully simple), is without difficulty, fully comprehended?

[3DOP]

I loved this quote from Fr. Scheeben:

"Why does the dawn exercise so enchanting an influence over us, why does it charm us more than the full light of day? Not because the light is mixed with darkness, but rather because it disperses the darkness that surrounded us, and brings in its train the light we have yearned for so long and so earnestly, and because our anxious hearts are cheered by the ever-glowing glories of the sun."

For almost my entire adult life, I have been awake, working quite a while, often outside, long before the sun comes up. I have begun to learn to try to ignore the melancholy that tries to oppress the soul in the dark hours before the dawn. But it took decades to realize that my anger, or impatience, or frustrations, were being so exacerbated by the early morning darkness. The sun rises. I wait. I wait. I anxiously wait. And she comes. Every day. What a gift of our loving Creator. For these last few years, I seem to need to be in this factory. But there is this window! I will always await the sunrise (except if I am asleep on weekends or vacations...or retirement! Heh.).

Rory

[JAHS]

53 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

So I can't tell if you agree or disagree with the author I have cited. I tend to think you disagree, since you seem to have a little aversion to the word "mystery". That something is simple does not to my mind preclude mystery. I hold that God is simple and mysterious. Let me just ask, do you think simplicity precludes mystery? Or put another way, do you think the gospel of Jesus Christ (simply beautiful and beautifully simple), is without difficulty, fully comprehended?

I guess I just disagree with the word "mystery". Mystery IMO is a word that does not belong in the religious context even though I know the word is found in the scriptures. It's a great word if you are talking about Agatha Christie or Sherlock Holmes, etc. So I also therefore don't agree that God is mysterious. We have gone beyond that word that the early followers of Christ used as recorded in the scriptures.  For us now, He is just on a higher plane of understanding than we are when it comes to spiritual matters. Therefore we can not at this time fully comprehend all that He knows and how He does what He does. Eventually we will be able to do that. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by JAHS

[Calm]

I love the word “mysteries” in a religious context...but I got into studying ancient religions before I got into Christie and Doyle, so perhaps learning of the Eleusinian, Orphic mysteries and others added a flavour lacking for others not exposed to that dimension of the word. 

For me it is not something ultimately unattainable, but more a promise of things to come. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Calm

[3DOP]

11 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I guess I just disagree with the word "mystery". Mystery IMO is a word that does not belong in the religious context even though I know the word is found in the scriptures. It's a great word if you are talking about Agatha Christie or Sherlock Holmes, etc. So I also therefore don't agree that God is mysterious. We have gone beyond that word that the early followers of Christ used as recorded in the scriptures.  For us now, He is just on a higher plane of understanding than we are when it comes to spiritual matters. Therefore we can not at this time fully comprehend all that He knows and how He does what He does. Eventually we will be able to do that. 

Thanks JAHS. Cool. I appreciate your reply.  Not to be all Pollyanna, but I don't want this to be an argument thread. I don't need anybody to confirm that they like "mystery" as a word when considering articles of faith. I am confident enough that everybody is enchanted by "mystery" as a concept. (Catholics need to be okay with the word "mystery". Its everywhere for us.)

[3DOP]

Digression, but it IS my topic.

I see that I spoke of the sun as "she". I didn't think about it and can't defend it. Would "he" have been better? Is the sun masculine or feminine, or neither? In context, I don't want "it", even though I know the sun is not a person. Why do you think I want to personalize the sun? 

...There is this Crosby, Stills, and Nash song..."The sun, she comes,  the world to soften up. Rejoice, rejoice, we have no choice, but to carry on."  Hmmm. I don't look to them for wisdom much. Do others refer to the sun as feminine, or masculine?

Yeah...it is probably hippieness and Carry On, Love is coming to us all, that prompted my gender preference as regards old Sol...who seems masculine when referred to as old Sol!

[Calm]

The sun is generally masculine in mythology. Japan has a female sun goddess*** and male moon god though. There are others I can’t remember. 

***Amaterasu, had to look it up as never can remember how to spell it. 

Edited June 23, 2019 by Calm

[CV75]

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

A side discussion has developed on another thread that is not related to the topic of the thread. It seemed to me that the subject warrants the interest that seemed to be generated. I am not sure where this thread will go, but intend to begin by attempting to define the importance of the idea of "mystery" to everyone. I have a book before me which I have consulted occasionally but never read completely. It is called the Mysteries of Christianity,  by Fr. Matthias Joseph Scheeeben, a German Catholic. There is a short biography about him in the Catholic Encyclopedia. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13525b.htm

I would like to begin with some quotations from Fr. Scheeben which attempt to describe why mystery is a gift that should be treasured by everyone. This will be from his Introduction called, The Mystery in General, in the Second Revised Edition first published in German in 1888. My English version is from B. Herder Book Company, published in 1946. All quotes and page numbers in this thread will be from that edition unless otherwise noted.

"The greatest charm in knowledge is astonishment, surprise, wonderment." p.5 

"In a word, the charm of truth is proportionate to its abstruseness and mystery. Must not Christianity, too, be especially valuable and dear to us because of the mysteries it involves? And indeed is it not all the more precious the greater are the mysteries which it harbors within itself? Does not Christianity impress us so powerfully just because it is one vast mystery, because it is the greatest of mysteries, the mystery of God?" p. 5

To a question raised by Bernard Gui on the other thread about mystery being beautiful, Fr. Scheeben clarifies:

"Fundamentally, of course, it is not the obscurity engulfing an object that makes the mystery so highly prized and attractive for us. Our souls, born of Light and destined for Light, flee darkness and long for light...Why does the dawn exercise so enchanting an influence over us, why does it charm us more than the full light of day? Not because the light is mixed with darkness, but rather because it disperses the darkness that surrounded us, and brings in its train the light we have yearned for so long and so earnestly, and because our anxious hearts are cheered by the ever-glowing glories of the sun." pp.5 and 6

"What captivates us is the emergence of a light that had been hidden from us. Mysteries must in themselves be lucid, glorious truths." p. 6

"There must be truths that baffle our scrutiny not because of their intrinsic darkness and confusion, but because of their excessive brilliance, sublimity, and beauty, which not even the sturdiest human eye can encounter without going blind." p. 6

(Maybe I should just type out the whole book? Heh. There are only 790 more pages of this kind of reflection on mystery in Christianity, after the introduction about the value of mystery in general. Following the introduction are ten "parts" each dedicated to a particular Christian Mystery. I tried to find a pdf file online, but failed.)

I have one more quote for now.

"...an essential characteristic of the knowledge we have of a thing is an awareness of the imperfection, deficiency, and obscurity of that knowledge; we do not deceive ourselves that the little we perceive is all that can be perceived...All true philosophers have quite rightly considered the consciousness of lack of knowledge as an essential factor of true knowledge." (emphasis mine), p. 8

See you after Mass.

Rory

I think the mystery is the yet-unrealized person we will become, and since that person is us, we can sense that, if not fully grasp the significance or comprehend who it is we will be like. Some scriptural references that come to mind:

“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” (1 Corinthians 11:13).

“But unto him that keepeth my commandments I will give the mysteries of my kingdom, and the same shall be in him a well of living water, springing up unto everlasting life.” (D&C 63: 23).

“Seek not for riches but for wisdom; and, behold, the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto you, and then shall you be made rich. Behold, he that hath eternal life is rich.” (D&C 11: 7).

“… the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true blight that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.” (D&C 88: 49-50).

Of course many "mini" mysteries lead up to that.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, rpn said:

Might be a mystery to an individual or a family or a culture, but plain and simple from Him.  

(I think the "mystery" analysis was created to explain the distortions or absence of doctrine that developed.   We don't believe that there is anything in the Gospel that is unknowable inherently do we?)

 

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect that there are truths that are not comprehensible to mortal minds that those in the eternal worlds delight in knowing.

There are also mysteries to be won in the gospel that are not generally revealed but given to individual members to bring them comfort, joy, and awe.

The word mystery is a Greek word which is not usually associated with matters which are easily understood.  So, when St Paul says: "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor 15:51-52), he is not saying something which we can actually comprehend.  We do not know how something like that is possible.

“Mysteries of God” refers to religious esoterica (1 Nephi 1:1, 2:16, 10:19, Mosiah 1:3, 2:9, Alma 12:9-11, 26:22).  “Mysteries of God” (Hebrew nistarot “hidden, mysteries,” versus niglot “revealed”) is a biblical term translated from Hebrew sôd “Council/Counsel/Secret” [1] = Greek μυστήριων θεου  (1 Corinthians 4:1, Colossians 2:2, Revelation 10:7), and nistarot “hidden, secrets” (Deut 29:28 [29], Psalm 19:12 [13]).  Cf. τοις αποκρύφοις (Ecclesiasticus 39:7), τελετας μεμυημένοις  (3 Maccabees 2:30), κρύφια μυστήρια (Wisdom 14:23).  Note Wisdom of Solomon 2:22 mystery of God/secret designs of God for immortality of man; Matthew 11:25 mysteries of kingdom revealed to disciples, but hidden from the wise (establishment); Alma 40:3 ∥1 Cor 15:51 unfold/show mystery; cf. Alma 26:22 ∥Luke 8:10, Mark 4:11-12 ∥Isaiah 6:9-10 (2 Nephi 16:9-10), Jeremiah 5:21, Ezekiel 12:2; Jereremiah 16:21, 31:34, Hosea 6:6 understanding the ways of God; Psalm 25:14, 1 Corinthians 2:7, Ephesians 3:5, Colossians 1:27, 2:3.  In Bible Review, 9/5 (Oct 1993):13-14, Birger Pearson thinks that Arthur D. Nock's analysis of mysterion (Latin Sacramentum) stands the test of time.[2]

Quote

Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.  Alma 26:22

Solomon Zeitlin said that

Quote

"Sacramentum is a Latin word and could not have any ecclesiastical usage in the Apostolic age.  The Word used was mystery (mysterion), in Colossians [1:27] and in I Timothy [3:9,16].  The Greek mysterion is rendered in the Vulgate sacramentum."[3]

[1] = Latin consilium, concilium (= Greek synedrion [Sanhedrin], synodos), the pre-existent Council in Heaven, or Council of the gods; E. T. Mullen, Jr., The Assembly of the Gods, Harvard Semitic Monograph 24 (Scholars Press, 1980).  Cf. 3 Nephi 12:22; Jeremiah 15:17, Amos 3:7.

[2] Namely Nock's "Early Gentile Christianity and its Hellenistic Background," in A. Rawlinson, ed., Essays on the Trinity and the Incarnation (Longmans, 1928), and reprinted (Harper & Row, 1964) as Early Gentile Christianity and the Incarnation; H. Kennedy, St. Paul and Mystery Religions, 130ff.

[3] Zeitlin, "Jesus and the Last Supper," Jewish Quarterly Review, 28/4 (April 1948), note 9. See 4 Macc 7:16, 16:1. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Digression, but it IS my topic.

I see that I spoke of the sun as "she". I didn't think about it and can't defend it. Would "he" have been better? Is the sun masculine or feminine, or neither? In context, I don't want "it", even though I know the sun is not a person. Why do you think I want to personalize the sun? 

...There is this Crosby, Stills, and Nash song..."The sun, she comes,  the world to soften up. Rejoice, rejoice, we have no choice, but to carry on."  Hmmm. I don't look to them for wisdom much. Do others refer to the sun as feminine, or masculine?

Yeah...it is probably hippieness and Carry On, Love is coming to us all, that prompted my gender preference as regards old Sol...who seems masculine when referred to as old Sol!

How funny... when I read your post I was like "wait a minute, the sun is masculine..."  

And if we want to talk mysteries and hippieness, let's restart our conversation about the Grateful Dead's "Row Jimmy"!

[USU78]

4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Digression, but it IS my topic.

I see that I spoke of the sun as "she". I didn't think about it and can't defend it. Would "he" have been better? Is the sun masculine or feminine, or neither? In context, I don't want "it", even though I know the sun is not a person. Why do you think I want to personalize the sun? 

...There is this Crosby, Stills, and Nash song..."The sun, she comes,  the world to soften up. Rejoice, rejoice, we have no choice, but to carry on."  Hmmm. I don't look to them for wisdom much. Do others refer to the sun as feminine, or masculine?

Yeah...it is probably hippieness and Carry On, Love is coming to us all, that prompted my gender preference as regards old Sol...who seems masculine when referred to as old Sol!

In German the sun is assigned feminine gender, and the moon masculine gender.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

In German the sun is assigned feminine gender, and the moon masculine gender.

In Hebrew the sun (shemesh) can be either masculine or feminine.  Gesenius, Hebrew Grammar, §122.

[Okrahomer]

5 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Digression, but it IS my topic.

I see that I spoke of the sun as "she". I didn't think about it and can't defend it. Would "he" have been better? Is the sun masculine or feminine, or neither? In context, I don't want "it", even though I know the sun is not a person. Why do you think I want to personalize the sun? 

I apologize in advance, but I'm going to add (just a bit) to your digression...

A painting by Johnathan Linton is hanging in the Conference Center in Salt Lake City.  It's called “Mercy Claimeth All Which is Her Own” – based on a passage in Alma 42 in the Book of Mormon:

"For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved."

I find the gender pronouns in this instance quite helpful, because the juxtaposition enhances my perception of what are seemingly incompatible virtues; thus reminding me that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is the only "place" where these virtues can exist in simultaneous perfection.  How grateful I am, for this miracle that has saved me and continues to save me -- every day!