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snowflake

Jesus as Lord and God

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In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 

3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
3 Nephi 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.
3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.
3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.
3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.
3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God.

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Snowflake, would you ever say you prayed to the Holy Spirit in the same way you pray to Jesus?  Just curious how that works in your faith.  Just occurred to me when I was thinking about different members of the Trinity.

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14 hours ago, snowflake said:

In the Book of Mormon Jesus' Apostles pray directly to him recognizing him as Lord and God.....almost all Christian sects accept Jesus as Lord and God (God in flesh)......and will pray directly to Him. It seems as though this is forbidden in LDS culture....Why doesn't the COJCOLDS accept him as Lord and God and pray directly to him as the first BOM Apostles did? 

3 Nephi 19:13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.
3 Nephi 19:14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.
3 Nephi 19:15 And it came to pass that while the angels were ministering unto the disciples, behold, Jesus came and stood in the midst and ministered unto them.
3 Nephi 19:16 And it came to pass that he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth.
3 Nephi 19:17 And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray.
3 Nephi 19:18 And behold, they began to pray; and *they did pray unto Jesus*, calling him their Lord and their God.

I do not know the answer to that question, but it seems to have been just on that occasion when Jesus was physically with them that such happened. Not sure what to make of it. In the same chapter before Jesus returned to them they were praying to God the Father in the name of Jesus and then in Chapter 27 he admonished the people to pray to God the Father in His name. (28 And now I ago unto the Father. And verily I say unto you, whatsoever things ye shall ask the Father in my name shall be given unto you.)

Glenn

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As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High.  See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God.  So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct.   He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is.  That is, Lord and God.  And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper.  And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so.  Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being.  I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one.  If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused.  But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh.  This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon.  Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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20 hours ago, Calm said:

Snowflake, would you ever say you prayed to the Holy Spirit in the same way you pray to Jesus?  Just curious how that works in your faith.  Just occurred to me when I was thinking about different members of the Trinity.

Good question....I would say that I do not pray to the Holy Spirit in the same way that I pray to the Father. I do pray to the Holy Spirit when I open scripture, often asking him to reveal himself to me, to reveal truth in his word and to give me wisdom (James 1:5). 

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57 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High.  See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God.  So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct.   He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is.  That is, Lord and God.  And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper.  And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so.  Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being.  I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one.  If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused.  But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh.  This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon.  Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Hi Kevin,

I agree with most of what you say above thanks for your response. I highlighted something I would like to ask you about. The bible seems to point out that we are not sons or children of God until we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior...or as you put it "become" his sons and daughters after we covenant with him...the LDS theology seems to teach that humans are "born" sons and daughters....is that a fair analogy? Thank you.

 

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11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

3 Nephi 27:2 And Jesus again showed himself unto them, for they were praying unto the Father in his name; and Jesus came and stood in the midst of them, and said unto them: What will ye that I shall give unto you?

Maybe Jesus was trying to show the Nephites that he was God in the flesh like in John 14? They are praying to the Father then Jesus shows up.....

 

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

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1 hour ago, Kevin Christensen said:

As always, it helps to understand that in calling Jesus the Son of God, that this means he is Jehovah (Yahweh), the son of El Elyon, God Most High.  See the DSS version of Deut. 32:8-9, and for much much more covering a wide range of ancient writings, from the oldest Biblical texts, a range Jewish writings, and the first 300 years of Christian writings, see Barker's The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God.  So that the Nephites recognized Jesus as Lord and God is correct.   He declares to them that he is the one who gave the Law to make it obvious who he is.  That is, Lord and God.  And when he prays to his Father, El Elyon, God Most High, that is also proper.  And since he encourages us to follow that pattern, we do so.  Our problems stem from the tendency to think titles like God or Father or Son can only apply to one being.  I am a son, and also a father, and that confuses no one.  If Jesus reports that he is the Father and the Son, we some how get confused.  But Barker starts her complex argument with the observation that in the Bible, the sons of Yahweh are all human, and the sons of El Elyon are all divine, and one of those sons is Yahweh.  This pattern also appears in the Book of Mormon.  Those who covenant with the Lord (Jesus, Yahweh) become his sons and daughters, and Jesus/Yahweh/the Lord is God and also is the son of El Elyon, God Most High.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon?

 

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9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon?

 

You really should get and read The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God.  I came across it in 1999, and was permanently affected, and wrote several essays on the implications.  "Paradigms Regained", for example.  And I have been posting on it ever since.  Here is a brief preview:

https://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

Brant Gardner discusses the implications of her work (and the work of Mark Smith, another Bible scholar) here:

https://www.fairmormon.org/conference/august-2003/monotheism-messiah-and-mormons-book

El Elyon is Hebrew for God Most High.  It appears in various places, one of the most important being the DSS version of Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (which predates Christianity), which shows that El Elyon is the Father of Yahweh, the God of Israel.  Barker points out in her book that in the New Testament, Jesus is never said to be the son of the Lord, but the son of El or El Elyon. The title also appears in 1 Nephi when the angel affirms that Nephi is blessed because he believes in the son of God Most High.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Am I the only one here who has never heard of El Elyon?

Your probably more familiar with it than you realize.  El is both used as a proper name for God and a general term for "God".  You see it in compound words all the time, such as El-ohim (plural of El), or Isra-El (wrestles with God), or Immanu-El (God is with us), or El-shaddai (Almighty God).  Elyon means "most high". 

Edited by pogi

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Your probably more familiar with it than you realize.  El is both used as a proper name for God and a general term for "God".  You see it in compound words all the time, such as El-ohim (plural of El), or Isra-El (wrestles with God), or Immanu-El (God is with us), or El-shaddai (Almighty God).  Elyon means "most high". 

Yeah, I'm quite familiar with El. But El Elyon?...nope.

It's always fun to learn new stuff.

Edited by HappyJackWagon
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I’ve prayed to Jesus before. Usually it’s mid prayer because I’m looking for a specific blessing that I know is coming directly from His hand, such as forgiveness. 

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For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church?

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3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Maybe Jesus was trying to show the Nephites that he was God in the flesh like in John 14? They are praying to the Father then Jesus shows up.....

 

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 

They were doing what he commanded them to do. I think by then they knew the difference between the Father and the Son. 

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11 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church?

Forbidden? How would that be enforced? Temple recommend? How would a bishop know? It’s not a recommend question.

At Church? Probably the bishop would talk to the person and teach him/her the correct doctrine and practice. Praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is what he asked us to do. Why would we want not to obey him?

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I would have no problem praying to jesus if He appeared before me. However He has told us to pray to the Father in his name otherwise

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

For LDS, is praying to Jesus forbidden, discouraged, or not recommended? Would someone be unable to go to the temple if they consistently prayed to Jesus? What would be the response if someone did this publicly at church?

As long as they didn't publicly advocate for it, I doubt it would be a problem, though their leader might counsel them to focus on more traditional methods of prayer.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Forbidden? How would that be enforced? Temple recommend? How would a bishop know? It’s not a recommend question.

Well, I don't know, that's why I asked the question.

Quote

Praying to the Father in the name of Jesus is what he asked us to do. Why would we want not to obey him?

You have to admit that that passage is up for interpretation and is not just a clear "why don't you want to obey Jesus?" The vast vast majority of the Christian world prays to Jesus because we interpret that passage differently than you. Likewise, the vast majority of the Christian world prays the "Our Father" because we also interpret that passage differently than you.

I could have been just as flippant and said: Jesus asked us to the pray the "Our Father." Why don't you want to obey Him? But I understand your interpretation, so I don't need to say that :) 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I would have no problem praying to jesus if He appeared before me. However He has told us to pray to the Father in his name otherwise

If He appears before you, wouldn't you just talk to Him? It seems to me that prayer is a way to communicate with a supernatural being who is not right in front of you.

Edited by MiserereNobis
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

As long as they didn't publicly advocate for it, I doubt it would be a problem, though their leader might counsel them to focus on more traditional methods of prayer.

I think I remember reading on some thread somewhere about some women praying to Heavenly Mother. Would that be treated like this do you think or is it a step too far?

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