Fallibility within the church

[MustardSeed]

I’d like to cut OP some slack.  

The Sunday school answer is, follow the prophet always, and all will be well.  It’s wrong to choose any other way, but hey, agency.  

The individual truth is likely that most people do think for themselves and there are a few minority who would follow a prophet into a burning building. 

[bluebell]

To address the original post:

Maybe it helps to rethink our idea of what a fallible prophet actually looks like.  (Not saying it will definitely help, just maybe).

Some quotes on fallibility, the church's teachings on the fallibility of prophets, and/or examples of when leaders were wrong to consider ( compiled by Fair Mormon):

Quote

"Can a Prophet or an Apostle be mistaken? Do not ask me any such question, for I will acknowledge that all the time, but I do not acknowledge that I designedly lead this people astray one hair’s breadth from the truth, and I do not knowingly do a wrong, though I may commit many wrongs, and so may you. But I overlook your weaknesses, and I know by experience that the Saints lift their hearts to God that I may be led right" ~Brigham Young

Quote

 

"Naturally the wonders in the heavens that man has created will be numbered among the signs which have been predicted—the airplanes, the guided missiles, and man-made planets that revolve around the earth. Keep it in mind, however, that such man-made planets belong to this earth, and it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to make any instrument or ship to travel through space and visit the moon or any distant planet."

He later accepted a flag from the Apollo astronauts. When asked about this by a reporter, he stated, "Well, I was wrong, wasn't I?"  ~ Joseph Fielding Smith

 

Quote

"Just a few examples from history (There are also reprimands in the D&C). They started doing Baptism for the dead in the river in Nauvoo - until God stopped them. They started doing sealings of adoption- until God stopped them. Why didn't God stop the race issue? He did...but He just did it later in his time frame for His purpose."

Quote

"A few question their faith when they find a statement made by a Church leader decades ago that seems incongruent with our doctrine. There is an important principle that governs the doctrine of the Church. The doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It is not hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk. True principles are taught frequently and by many. Our doctrine is not difficult to find.  The leaders of the Church are honest but imperfect men. Remember the words of Moroni: “Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father … ; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been”  ~Todd Christofferson

Quote

"Question 14: Do you believe that the President of the Church, when speaking to the Church in his official capacity is infallible? 
Answer: We do not believe in the infallibility of man. When God reveals anything it is truth, and truth is infallible. No President of the Church has claimed infallibility" ~Charles Penrose

Quote

"An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be."  ~Joseph Fielding Smith

Quote

"Even with the best of intentions, [Church government] does not always work the way it should. Human nature may express itself on occasion, but not to the permanent injury of the work." ~Dallin Oaks

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by bluebell

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

I’d like to cut OP some slack.  

The Sunday school answer is, follow the prophet always, and all will be well.  It’s wrong to choose any other way, but hey, agency.  

The individual truth is likely that most people do think for themselves and there are a few minority who would follow a prophet into a burning building. 

I’m pretty sure that follow into a burning building thing happened in OT times...ok maybe they were pushed. 😊

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Does the church put up stories without vetting them for accuracy?

Sometimes yes and look what problems that has caused.  Saying the Church does it as an excuse for someone else doing it doesn't work for me.

If the horse's mouth is lying, is it any better than a fourthhand screwup?  I personally think it is worse, at least the repeaters are honest believers in the story.

Young must know that some accounts are likely fake because the bragging of some who have claimed to posted a number of fake stories to test Young's accuracy.  I am not saying Young himself is lying.  Those who post the false stories are.  But I am saying he doesn't care whether it is true or false, so I see him as not telling Truth.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, changed said:

know so very many victims are not believed..

And allowing fake stories to be put side by side with true victims damages the victims.

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, Duncan said:

what "dominant narrative"? are there quotations to back up this claim?

Only if you have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand.  

[SteveO]

5 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Only if you have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand.  

I don’t think so.  You really just need to lack as much self awareness as “Changed” or even yourself have displayed on this thread.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, changed said:

and paid back the $250?  Do you have a reference for that?

How would he pay it back? He donated from his own personal funds and you generally cannot get campaign contributions back. The campaign did not return it to him if that is what you are asking.

[changed]

On 6/14/2019 at 6:51 PM, Calm said:

Sometimes yes and look what problems that has caused.  Saying the Church does it as an excuse for someone else doing it doesn't work for me.

If the horse's mouth is lying, is it any better than a fourthhand screwup?  I personally think it is worse, at least the repeaters are honest believers in the story.

Young must know that some accounts are likely fake because the bragging of some who have claimed to posted a number of fake stories to test Young's accuracy.  I am not saying Young himself is lying.  Those who post the false stories are.  But I am saying he doesn't care whether it is true or false, so I see him as not telling Truth.

 

Young's movement has created changes within the church - his voice was heard, policies have started to change, and I am very thankful that he was willing to stand up, speak up, and bring so many people together.  

[Calm]

17 hours ago, changed said:

 

Young's movement has created changes within the church - his voice was heard, policies have started to change, and I am very thankful that he was willing to stand up, speak up, and bring so many people together.  

And if he had been more careful about focusing on truth rather than drama, how much more change could have been created?

How much more likely would victims be believed?

Instead from what I have seen, his carelessness/shortcuts in his work and efforts of those who got behind Denson's fraud have now created much more doubt about victims' claims than there once was, at least in the groups I hang out in that were proactive towards victims in the past.  Now many are hesitant about committing.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Calm

[Exiled]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

And if he had been more careful about focusing on truth rather than drama, how much more change could have been created?

How much more likely would victims be believed?

Instead from what I have seen his carelessness/shortcuts in his work and those who got behind Denson's fraud has now created much more doubt about victims' claims than there once was, at least in the group's .I hang out in that were proactive towards victims in the past.  Now many are hesitant about committing.

What was the drama he focused on rather than the truth?  Are you talking about the hunger strike?  Are you talking about merely making his misgivings public?  As far as Ms. Denson, her recording and Bishop's discussions with the police (who are continuing to fight to hide the full, unredacted report) show that there was something to her story.  I think when it comes to the he said/she said part of the story, that will be hard to believe, given her recent nonsense.  However, Bishop admitted to sexual mistakes and abused his position of authority, looking at things in a light most favorable to Bishop.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

What was the drama he focused on rather than the truth?

Putting up all claims no matter what, for whatever reason he wanted numbers over truth (perhaps too lazy to check, wanted to be more impressive, etc.)

Quote

As far as Ms. Denson, her recording and Bishop's discussions with the police (who are continuing to fight to hide the full, unredacted report) show that there was something to her story. 

The fraud I am talking about are the number of scams she has pulled over the decades since the MTC that are documented.  By ignoring these facts earlier on (when the dossier was first published), dismissing them as somehow irrelevant to her current claims even though they were ongoing (identity theft charge in Feb 2019), he helped set people up for disillusionment with any victim movement, including his own.

I consider the MTC claims as possible.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Calm

[Exiled]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Putting up all claims no matter what, for whatever reason he wanted numbers over truth (perhaps too lazy to check, wanted to be more impressive, etc.)

The fraud I am talking about are the number of scams she has pulled over the decades since the MTC that are documented.  By ignoring these facts earlier on (when the dossier was first published), dismissing them as somehow irrelevant to her current claims even though they were ongoing (identity theft charge in Feb 2019), he helped set people up for disillusionment with any victim movement, including his own.

I consider the MTC claims as possible.

Has it been shown that any of the claims Young put up were false? 

Sure, Ms. Denson is an incredibly poor example and a poor torch bearer.  However, predators sometimes plan for the aftermath, when having to answer victims' claims against them becomes a he said/she said.  One can see that a predator would want someone troubled like Denson to attack.  Also, I think you are forgetting that Bishop confessed to inappropriate behavior and the Trib article today shows how supposedly Bishop confessed to his superiors and still kept his job.  Without this evidence, perhaps Denson's claims would have been viewed with a little more skepticism.  Maybe some of her claims were invented, however, she helped catch a pervert.

Anyway, what are your thoughts on the me-too movement?  They seem to want acceptance of claims regardless.  Perhaps there was a little of that too.  In any event, in my opinion, without Bishop's confession, I wouldn't have given Denson's story much credence.

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, Exiled said:

Has it been shown that any of the claims Young put up were false? 

Duncan on this board got an email from Young about a story he posted on Young's site...which he had never posted.  There have been several people reporting stories they sent in were never vetted, some sent in multiple fake ones to test the system.

If Young has ever claimed to vet stories rather than to assume accuracy, please point this out.

Only when Young decided to publish some of the stories in book form did he attempt to verify any info from what I have read.  How much beyond getting permission to publish the story I don't know.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:25 AM, hope_for_things said:

 But you are an outlier in the dominant culture.   

General Church culture or Utah Church culture?California Church culture? Grand Cayman Church culture? I find they are as varied as their location 

 

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

General Church culture or Utah Church culture?California Church culture? Grand Cayman Church culture? I find they are as varied as their location 

 

Even different parts of Utah Valley can have significant differences in culture.

[Stargazer]

On 6/14/2019 at 5:24 AM, changed said:

 

I think Blacks and the priesthood was a serious mistake... I think not baptizing children of LGBT parents was a serious mistake.  I can name a few more things I consider to be serious mistakes but that would derail the thread... 

I am going to have to disagree with Spock - even within a military operation.  If a commander in an army starts yelling at soldiers to kill innocent people, a good soldier would not obey.  I do not see the church as a ship or a military unit - I think it should be more of a school, trying to help people to progress - and part of progression is learning how to think for oneself.. Good teachers do not just give their students all the answers... 

Uh, no.

Ever been a member of a combat unit? I thought not. If your troops lose faith or confidence in your ability to command, lives will be lost. Bringing up the extreme and infrequent example of illegal orders does not help your case. It even applies to civilian life, except for the loss of life. I have rarely, if ever, heard any leader in civilian or military life confess to mistakes, at least in public. And there were mistakes made, without doubt.

Teachers teaching critical thinking skills is a nonsequitor.

 

[Calm]

On 6/13/2019 at 10:24 PM, changed said:

Good teachers do not just give their students all the answers... 

And they often don't give answers at all.  But in my experience they give a good percentage of them with work attached....much like church leaders do (answers are both given in some contexts with detail on how to achieve them and withheld so we can explore answers for ourselves).

My best math teacher was my first semester Calculus professor.  He taught the same material three times, first time briefly without answers and we were expected to try to work through them all on our own.  Next in detail from beginning to end on how to do it step by step with answers, and last third time again briefly reviewing and then homework on our own with answers doublechecking we understood and could do it ourselves.  I had that stuff down so well I could recite it in my sleep.

[Stargazer]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

And they often don't give answers at all.  But in my experience they give a good percentage of them with work attached....much like church leaders do (answers are both given in some contexts with detail on how to achieve them and withheld so we can explore answers for ourselves).

My best math teacher was my first semester Calculus professor.  He taught the same material three times, first time briefly without answers and we were expected to try to work through them all on our own.  Next in detail from beginning to end on how to do it step by step with answers, and last third time again briefly reviewing and then homework on our own with answers doublechecking we understood and could do it ourselves.  I had that stuff down so well I could recite it in my sleep.

Which is very good and all, and I had a math teacher just like that once. But bringing up teaching expertise in a discussion over whether leaders should apologize for their mistakes?  I don't know why she brought it up, as it doesn't have anything to do with her premise, let alone support it.

One of my daughters had a math teacher in high school who couldn't explain her way out of a paper bag.  In desperation, Angela came to me to ask for help (which for her was true desperation). I explained it in five minutes, and she asked "Is THAT all?!"  "Yep," I replied.  She got quite angry over it.  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Which is very good and all, and I had a math teacher just like that once. But bringing up teaching expertise in a discussion over whether leaders should apologize for their mistakes?  I don't know why she brought it up, as it doesn't have anything to do with her premise, let alone support it.

One of my daughters had a math teacher in high school who couldn't explain her way out of a paper bag.  In desperation, Angela came to me to ask for help (which for her was true desperation). I explained it in five minutes, and she asked "Is THAT all?!"  "Yep," I replied.  She got quite angry over it.  

I had a teacher for geometry who was fresh out of school himself.  He would teach the class and then the kids who were less at home in math would turn to me and I would interpret the book for them as we just couldn't get it from his method.  That wasn't my worse teacher though.  That one was the one who didn't require attendance, homework, and allowed tests to be open book.  I got a B+ in that class but retained very little.  It was the semester after the best teacher and was calculus as well.

[Tacenda]

https://truthandtransparency.org/news/2019/4/9/false-story-removed-from-newest-book-on-the-life-of-mormon-president-russell-m-nelson

RFM has a new podcast mentioning this story. I think the blame is soley on Pres. Nelson here. In other situations such as Elder Holland's talks with stories not fully substantiated, they weren't personal like his. There isn't a way that Pres. Nelson could have heard wrong or repeated wrong, since it happened to him. Where he added untrue things that were faith promoting. The family members had to come to LDS Living and Deseret Book to tell them that they need to take out the story since it isn't all the way true.

What do people on here think? I know I'm famous for drive bys, but I don't know what to make of this one. I know that there was a retraction to the story being in the book of Pres. Nelson's newest book that Sheri Dew authored. But the LDS Living site still has it on their website according to RFM. Here is the story that was published by LDS Living:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/4/45/2019-03-You_Didnt_Read_It_Did_You.pdf

ETA: It could be something some in the LDS church do, as far as sharing faith promoting stories. A friend of my husband and I, told us that when he's read his dad's journals, there are stories/situations that didn't happen, he knew for a fact. His dad has served several missions and very believing and scholarly in the church. 

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Tacenda

[HappyJackWagon]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 10:55 PM, Maidservant said:

I guess I can also add that in my personal life, I find apologies worthless.  I don't give them and I don't receive them or require them of others.  If a person could change, they would.  No words said.  If they can't change, then words don't help.

This is super interesting.

Like you, I don't "require" apologies from others. I figure, if I have to try to elicit an apology it won't really mean much.

BUT... You don't give apologies? You never say your sorry? You don't express regret if you've done something wrong, or hurt someone, even if unintentionally? I find that extremely unusual and I can't understand why, as a matter of personal policy you would refuse to offer apologies when one is warranted. Can you help me understand the thinking on that?

Also, how do you not "receive" apologies. If someone offers an apology to you for something they have said or done that caused some measure of pain or harm, would you tell them you don't accept the apology? If so, why? It seems very rude, and I can't conceive of a good reason why, as a matter of personal policy you would refuse to accept ("receive") the heartfelt apology from another person. Can you help me understand that?

OR am I just totally misunderstanding what you are saying here?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

friend of my husband and I, told us that when he's read his dad's journals, there are stories/situations that didn't happen, he knew for a fact.

When I read my dad's journal, it made me furious for his portrayal of me (I assume he was probably just as accurate with others), my sister who had helped him with it pointed out some errors, but he brushed it off as he wanted it to be a good story (personally I think a great deal was laziness, easier to come up with what I thought and felt than to ask me about it and have to take notes, etc).  He was precise in many areas of his life, he was an engineer who worked with a very large fleet aircraft and figuring out what went wrong with them and making sure it wouldn't happen again and that carefulness bled over into other things. 

The inconsistencies in people are fascinating to me.  I try not to judge very often as I am certain .I have my share.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://truthandtransparency.org/news/2019/4/9/false-story-removed-from-newest-book-on-the-life-of-mormon-president-russell-m-nelson

RFM has a new podcast mentioning this story. I think the blame is soley on Pres. Nelson here. In other situations such as Elder Holland's talks with stories not fully substantiated, they weren't personal like his. There isn't a way that Pres. Nelson could have heard wrong or repeated wrong, since it happened to him. Where he added untrue things that were faith promoting. The family members had to come to LDS Living and Deseret Book to tell them that they need to take out the story since it isn't all the way true.

What do people on here think? I know I'm famous for drive bys, but I don't know what to make of this one. I know that there was a retraction to the story being in the book of Pres. Nelson's newest book that Sheri Dew authored. But the LDS Living site still has it on their website according to RFM. Here is the story that was published by LDS Living:

https://mormonleaks.io/wiki/documents/4/45/2019-03-You_Didnt_Read_It_Did_You.pdf

ETA: It could be something some in the LDS church do, as far as sharing faith promoting stories. A friend of my husband and I, told us that when he's read his dad's journals, there are stories/situations that didn't happen, he knew for a fact. His dad has served several missions and very believing and scholarly in the church. 

 

Add-on:  not seeing it on ldsliving...

Do we know if the source of the Korean story was firsthand from Pres. Nelson to Dew?  Was it correct in conference talks, etc?  It wasn't clear to me (half asleep today).  Dew might have gotten it from someone else or conflated stories.  When accusing someone of lying, one should be careful with the details.

President Nelson should have proofed the book, imo, and removed inaccuracies.  If by some chance he misremembered, this should be admitted.  If he added colour, he should apologize about that.  I think a public apology would be good given the family wants the real story out there, especially a better portrait of their dad (I am assuming the retraction does that, it should be done on ldsliving as well imo).  Plus if descendants come across this story, they may get confused and frustrated by the inaccuracies (was great-great Grandma a nurse?  in Korea?  Why doesn't she say so? Which source is right?)

There were stories in my dad's journal I had never heard him share.  Otoh, his mom had made a lot of some of them for as long as I knew her and she had firsthand knowledge, my mom spoke of others.  There are also newspaper articles from the times and other documents.  So I figure with Dad he likely gets the basic facts more or less right, what is going on with others might be a creation though (their motivations, desires, thoughts, background he might not be very familiar with and not paid close attention to) 

Tacenda, you might want to point out the problem to ldsliving.  If more than a few bring it up, then they will more likely see it as important enough to pay for getting it removed (put it in a higher priority of work to be done).

Edited June 24, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Here's one of the conference talks that references it.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/be-thou-an-example-of-the-believers?lang=eng

Still can't find it on lds living.

I can see screwing up the wife as a nurse, the former nurse with a doctor as a husband is a cliche for a good reason.  Was he still with the military when in Tennessee (my dad was stationed there postKorea, btw; I think that is where he piloted the craft that flew the troops into Little Rock to escort the African American kids to school...only thing he bragged about for his service, and yes we have documentation for that)?

Edited June 24, 2019 by Calm