Fallibility within the church

[webbles]

How many times do prophets in the Bible admit they made mistakes?  Or apologized about something?  Are those prophets fallible or infallible?

[Duncan]

9 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

So few and far between, sadly we can count the exceptions to the rule on one hand....  

i'm sure if I had the time I could come up with more, or you can too! funnily enough i don't ever recall any President of the Church saying they were perfect

[hope_for_things]

16 minutes ago, Duncan said:

i'm sure if I had the time I could come up with more, or you can too! funnily enough i don't ever recall any President of the Church saying they were perfect

Maybe extend these exceptions to two hands with a little more research.  The dominant narrative in the tradition remains the same.  

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Maybe extend these exceptions to two hands with a little more research.  The dominant narrative in the tradition remains the same.  

if I did would you change your mind? what dominant narrative? can you share examples where prophets have said they are infallible?

[longview]

Jonah was a wet-behind-the-ears prophet.  He was disobedient in trying to escape to Tarshish.  He was uncharitable in expecting Nineveh to be destroyed despite the great outpouring of repentance by its inhabitants.

Imagine yourself being in a ward (hypothetically speaking) at that time raising your hand in sustaining the leaders of the church.  When Jonah's name comes up what will you do?  Are we sustaining God's Purpose in calling this particular person or are we judging the competence of the person?

[hope_for_things]

48 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if I did would you change your mind? what dominant narrative? can you share examples where prophets have said they are infallible?

The dominant narrative is manifest everywhere in the culture.  A few select quotes here and there doesn't change the overarching behaviors and operating model which is clearly deeply embedded.  

[changed]

1 hour ago, churchistrue said:

I'm "all-in". To me, it means I'm there on Sunday. I'm trying to do my part to contribute. I watch general conference. I take in the messages. I don't feel like I'm compelled to agree with anything. So the answer to the question "what do you feel free in disagreeing with?" is: everything. I do feel compelled to listen and take everything seriously and struggle with it to see if it's something I should try to bend myself to. Sometimes I disagree because I'm right and others are wrong. Sometimes I disagree because I'm wrong and others are right. 

Do you feel free to vocally disagree with policies and practices which are harmful?  What are your thoughts on Sam Young?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, changed said:

You are avoiding the issue - yes or no.  Do prophets consider themselves to be infallible?

When is a prophet or leader speaking for God, and when are they not?

You even quoted me, but seem not to have understood anything I said.  My own comments go the opposite direction from yours, and I give specific examples (which perhaps you don't understand and are completely unaware of), and I have mentioned them often on this board.  Infallibility theory just doesn't work, not for Mormons, and not for Catholics.  The evidence (which I cited) just doesn't support it.  You may have noticed that I asked Duane Boyce to discuss that problem, but he didn't respond.  However, there were comments which immediately responded to mine.  Did you take note of that, and what is your response?

Your comments above to others indicate to me that you believe most Mormons have an automatic belief in infallibility, but even Pres Kimball didn't believe that.  In fact, he told Sis Cannon that the general membership didn't like that.  What did you make of his comments?  What did you make of Elder McConkie's complete reversal?  If what you claim were true, Elder McConkie could not have done that.  Or don't you understand what Elder McConkie said?  Do you understand why Elder Orson Pratt so strongly rejected several of Pres Brigham Young's claims?  Do you understand that in each case it is Elder Pratt who was correct and whose beliefs are current doctrine -- instead of what Pres Young claimed?  If Pres Young was infallible, how is that possible?  Have you even thought about any of that?

What did Joseph Smith mean when he said: "“a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such” (History of the Church 5:265)?

[changed]

46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You even quoted me, but seem not to have understood anything I said.  My own comments go the opposite direction from yours, and I give specific examples (which perhaps you don't understand and are completely unaware of), and I have mentioned them often on this board.  Infallibility theory just doesn't work, not for Mormons, and not for Catholics.  The evidence (which I cited) just doesn't support it.  You may have noticed that I asked Duane Boyce to discuss that problem, but he didn't respond.  However, there were comments which immediately responded to mine.  Did you take note of that, and what is your response?

Your comments above to others indicate to me that you believe most Mormons have an automatic belief in infallibility, but even Pres Kimball didn't believe that.  In fact, he told Sis Cannon that the general membership didn't like that.  What did you make of his comments?  What did you make of Elder McConkie's complete reversal?  If what you claim were true, Elder McConkie could not have done that.  Or don't you understand what Elder McConkie said?  Do you understand why Elder Orson Pratt so strongly rejected several of Pres Brigham Young's claims?  Do you understand that in each case it is Elder Pratt who was correct and whose beliefs are current doctrine -- instead of what Pres Young claimed?  If Pres Young was infallible, how is that possible?  Have you even thought about any of that?

What did Joseph Smith mean when he said: "“a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such” (History of the Church 5:265)?

like it or not... 

“Yes, it’s true, but I don’t think they like to hear it quite that way.”  - President Kimball

Everyone is free to pray and find out for themselves, but if your personal conclusions and conscience lead you to believe something different than what is handed down from on high,  ...  LGBT policies are not loving and kind?  Believe racist policies were not from God? Believe women should be prophets too (as there were female prophets in the Bible)?  Believe children are unsafe alone with the bishop?  Have a child who was molested by a bishopric member?     keep your mouth shut about it or you will be labeled an apostate....  sorry - I do not see a healthy platform to discuss and disagree with church leaders.  People say Sam Young did not behave correctly - but tell me - kids are being molested - it is an emergency situation - so... you whisper about the fire that is raging and hurting children?? 

 

you wrote "Does that mean that we have to pray about everything the prophet says? Yes, if necessary. But hopefully we are so close to the Spirit that we recognize the truthfulness of a prophet’s statement when we hear it. And, in fact, if we are continually in doubt about what the prophet says, that means that we are NOT living worthy to have the Spirit with us. "

 

in other words - if you disagree with anything the prophet states, you are wrong.  I am wrong to think the church should not have excluded blacks.  I am wrong to think the church should not have conducted one-on-one interviews with children.  I am wrong to think the church handled prop 8 incorrectly.  I am wrong to have thought LGBT kids should not be excluded.  I guess I just don't have the spirit.

Edited June 14, 2019 by changed

[JAHS]

11 hours ago, changed said:

 

"and part of progression is learning how to think for oneself.. Good teachers do not just give their students all the answers... 

You do understand that we believe in the the following scriptures: 
"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.
Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;
For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.
But he that doeth not anything until he is commanded, and receiveth a commandment with doubtful heart, and keepeth it with slothfulness, the same is damned."  (D&C 58: 26-29)

Sounds to me like God is telling us to think and act for ourselves.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, changed said:

People say Sam Young did not behave correctly -

You think putting up stories without vetting them for accuracy, thus resulting in some false accusations, is correct behaviour?

You think that is helpful in convincing people there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed?

Edited June 14, 2019 by Calm

[changed]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

You think putting up stories without vetting them for accuracy, thus resulting in some false accusations, is correct behaviour?

You think that is helpful in convincing people there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed?

 

I'm #823.  

"The identify of the people involved in the following account have been omitted to protect the privacy of those involved. Those wishing to verify this submission may contact Sam, who can then release my contact info for further confidential discussion if needed. I will not share or discuss the details of this case with anyone who is not an authority figure tasked with altering current church policies to better protect LDS youth. Anyone requesting information will need to verify their identity, and sign confidentiality agreements before further information is shared."

 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

You think putting up stories without vetting them for accuracy, thus resulting in some false accusations, is correct behaviour?

You think that is helpful in convincing people there is a serious problem that needs to be addressed?

Does the church put up stories without vetting them for accuracy? I believe so, in the recent past with Pres. Holland's apologies for sharing a story that wasn't exactly truth. And has happened with different GA's out there. The one that is most known being Paul H. Dunn. Why did the church let that go on for so long or not fact check? Probably because so many members became more faithful or many new members joined because of them? Wasn't this doing what Sam is? Basically when you listen to a GC talk, how sure are we that it is accurate or fact? At least Sam's come from the horse's mouth, instead of several hand stories. 

[Danzo]

Anyone here every read the Doctrine and Covenants?

Much of it is devoted to telling the church that it is in error.

If you want something specific about the prophet being wrong, I would recommend re-reading Doctrine and Covenants Section 3.  

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Danzo

[changed]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Does the church put up stories without vetting them for accuracy? I believe so, in the recent past with Pres. Holland's apologies for sharing a story that wasn't exactly truth. And has happened with different GA's out there. The one that is most known being Paul H. Dunn. Why did the church let that go on for so long or not fact check? Probably because so many members became more faithful or many new members joined because of them? Wasn't this doing what Sam is? Basically when you listen to a GC talk, how sure are we that it is accurate or fact? At least Sam's come from the horse's mouth, instead of several hand stories. 

 

Holland's sweet story about the estranged missionaries brothers comes to mind... https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865685840/Elder-Holland-withdraws-Church-News-missionary-story.html

Thanks Tacenda.  I know so very many victims are not believed.... I'm almost thankful our abuser used a videotape.  ... almost. 

Edited June 14, 2019 by changed

[changed]

6 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Anyone here every read the Doctrine and Covenants?

Much of it is devoted to telling the church that it is in error.

If you want something specific about the prophet being wrong, I would recommend re-reading Doctrine and Covenants Section 3.  

 

 

That is a good example... any more recent examples?  

[bluebell]

19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Does the church put up stories without vetting them for accuracy? I believe so, in the recent past with Pres. Holland's apologies for sharing a story that wasn't exactly truth. And has happened with different GA's out there. The one that is most known being Paul H. Dunn. Why did the church let that go on for so long or not fact check? Probably because so many members became more faithful or many new members joined because of them? Wasn't this doing what Sam is? Basically when you listen to a GC talk, how sure are we that it is accurate or fact? At least Sam's come from the horse's mouth, instead of several hand stories. 

There seems to be a very obvious difference between putting up positive stories that harm no one's reputation and don't put anyone in danger of false accusations without vetting those stories, and putting up negative stories that can harm someone's reputation and put them in danger of false accusations and the involvement of law enforcement without vetting those stories.

While vetting all stories would be a good thing, the fallout from a heart-whelming story not being completely true, and the fallout from an accusation of sexual molestation and rape not being completely true, are pretty different.  It doesn't make sense to act as if both situations are essentially the same.  

[pogi]

14 hours ago, changed said:

The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet....

Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake.  

Are you suggesting that they really think that they are perfect or something?

Lets clear this up.

1) The prophets are not perfect, because if they were perfect, then they would be lying by claiming that they are not perfect...which would make them imperfect. 

2) If it is indeed true (I'm not saying that it is) that the prophets have harmed people because of their mistakes and have never apologized for anything, then this is further evidence that they are imperfect.

Final conclusion...they are imperfect!

 

[pogi]

14 hours ago, changed said:

Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake.  

Quote

 “To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”

President Uchtdorf

 

 

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, changed said:

 

That is a good example... any more recent examples?  

Just a quick search through the D&C and D&C 132 seems to be the most recent section to talk specifically of Joseph being Fallible. 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

The dominant narrative is manifest everywhere in the culture.  A few select quotes here and there doesn't change the overarching behaviors and operating model which is clearly deeply embedded.  

what "dominant narrative"? are there quotations to back up this claim?

[SteveO]

5 hours ago, changed said:

Still waiting for legit examples SteveO...

Ah, now we need legit examples...MY mistake...we can’t post just any old examples guys.  They. Must. Be. LEGIT.

Do you guys read your posts out loud and hear how ridiculous you sound before posting?

Edit to add: what a waste of time coming to this board is anymore.

Edited June 14, 2019 by SteveO

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, changed said:

like it or not... 

“Yes, it’s true, but I don’t think they like to hear it quite that way.”  - President Kimball

Yes, which shows that even Kimball did not believe that the membership accepted infallibility, even though you apparently do.

1 hour ago, changed said:

Everyone is free to pray and find out for themselves, but if your personal conclusions and conscience lead you to believe something different than what is handed down from on high,  ...  LGBT policies are not loving and kind?  Believe racist policies were not from God? Believe women should be prophets too (as there were female prophets in the Bible)?  Believe children are unsafe alone with the bishop?  Have a child who was molested by a bishopric member?     keep your mouth shut about it or you will be labeled an apostate....  sorry - I do not see a healthy platform to discuss and disagree with church leaders.  People say Sam Young did not behave correctly - but tell me - kids are being molested - it is an emergency situation - so... you whisper about the fire that is raging and hurting children?? 

Do you see yourself as a Sam Young?  If so, you need to better inform yourself, since most of these statements are false or misleading.  You need to at least be able to correctly state what the problems are, and you don't seem capable of that yet.

1 hour ago, changed said:

you wrote "Does that mean that we have to pray about everything the prophet says? Yes, if necessary. But hopefully we are so close to the Spirit that we recognize the truthfulness of a prophet’s statement when we hear it. And, in fact, if we are continually in doubt about what the prophet says, that means that we are NOT living worthy to have the Spirit with us. "

Those are not my words.  You have falsely attributed to me the words of Lanny Landrith, whom I do not know.  He was commenting on the Boyce article in Interpreter.

1 hour ago, changed said:

in other words - if you disagree with anything the prophet states, you are wrong.  I am wrong to think the church should not have excluded blacks.

Again, you purposely ignored that Orson Pratt (and Joseph Smith himself) did not believe that Black men should not have the priesthood.  Brigham Young made a serious error in withholding that priesthood, and Orson went after him for it.  Your additional notion here that the LDS Church excluded Black people is completely false.  The LDS Church always baptized Black people and never had segregated congregations.,

1 hour ago, changed said:

  I am wrong to think the church should not have conducted one-on-one interviews with children.  I am wrong to think the church handled prop 8 incorrectly.

You clearly don't believe in democracy (the vote).  Most of those in California concurred with federal law that marriage was only between a man and a woman.  That's how they voted.  The Supreme Court correctly decided that equal protection of the laws (14th amendment) applied to same sex couples as well.  So federal law was changed in an instant.  That is part of our Constitutional system, which those horrible Mormons fully accept.  What is it that you don't understand about that?

1 hour ago, changed said:

 I am wrong to have thought LGBT kids should not be excluded.  I guess I just don't have the spirit.

You don't even realize that those horrible Mormons have now changed their "infallible" policy on LGBTQ kids?  You really don't pay any attention at all?  Laurel Wamsley, “In Major Shift, LDS Church Rolls Back Controversial Policies Toward LGBT Members,” NPR, April 4, 2019, online at  
https://www.npr.org/2019/04/04/709988377/in-major-shift-mormon-church-rolls-back-controversial-policies-toward-lgbt-membe .

You appear to know so very little about the LDS Church or its history.  Yet you want to comment on it.  Why?

[Anonymous Mormon]

13 hours ago, changed said:

I think Blacks and the priesthood was a serious mistake... I think not baptizing children of LGBT parents was a serious mistake.  I can name a few more things I consider to be serious mistakes but that would derail the thread... 

 

13 hours ago, changed said:

So when does everyone think the prophet is speaking for God, vs. not?  .... thus saith the Lord____ ← when was the last time anyone said that?? and if they do not say it, then just ignore it?  thus saith the Lord... all children 12 years and older shall meet privately behind closed with their bishop and discuss their sexual morality?  thus saith the Lord... children of LGBT parents will be excluded from church??  thus saith the Lord all those of African decent shall not be given the priesthood?  

Apologizing is not always clear cut. Should you apologize for an action if the final outcome wasn't what you hoped, but the action wasn't wrong (and maybe was the best course)? Does apologizing immediately place blame on the one apologizing and say it was a wrong action? 

For example, should the church apologize for blacks not holding the Priesthood if it WAS God's will to not give all members the Priesthood in the early history of the church? God has placed bans on Priesthood service in the past based upon lineage. Should the prophet apologize for the Priesthood not being granted to anyone outside of the tribe of Levi as well if no Prophet is yet on record of doing so?

Or your example of Bishop interviews. The church will continue to have Bishops interview youth about chastity issues. So if the church apologized that some Bishops handled it inappropriately would this be enough for you? I am 100% certain the church's leaders are sorry to see some of it's bishops who have acted poorly in the past and I'd bet that they have expressed how sorry they are to the families who have had hurt by these individuals.

[churchistrue]

3 hours ago, changed said:

Do you feel free to vocally disagree with policies and practices which are harmful?  What are your thoughts on Sam Young?

I'm not shy about being vocal about anything. What you have in mind? As a covenant keeping member of the church, I think there's a certain way of doing that and not doing that. But I vocally disagree with a lot.