changed Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Another point of conversation - how far do you trust church leadership? Where do you question? What do you feel free in disagreeing with? In seeing a leader as someone who is imperfect and does not always get everything right? What does "all-in" mean to you? How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Duncan Posted June 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 14, 2019 Elder McConkie saying "forget everything", both Pres. Faust and Pres. Uchtdorf saying that Prophets sometimes make mistakes, I think Elder Marlin Jensen apologized for prop 8 or something to that effect-these come to mind. 8 Link to comment
SteveO Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 55 minutes ago, changed said: The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. A more interesting question: when the examples you seem to think don’t exist inevitably appear, are you going to be able to admit your mistake? 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 41 minutes ago, changed said: The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Another point of conversation - how far do you trust church leadership? Where do you question? What do you feel free in disagreeing with? In seeing a leader as someone who is imperfect and does not always get everything right? What does "all-in" mean to you? How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? A very recent article on that by Duane Boyce just came out in Interpreter, https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/yes-its-true-but-i-dont-think-they-like-to-hear-it-quite-that-way-what-spencer-w-kimball-told-elaine-cannon/ . A number of readers made comments, including me, dealing with the issue of infallibility. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Maidservant Posted June 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, changed said: Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. I can't recall, but then again I haven't been looking. I guess I can also add that in my personal life, I find apologies worthless. I don't give them and I don't receive them or require them of others. If a person could change, they would. No words said. If they can't change, then words don't help. Quote How far do you trust church leadership? Not sure if you mean the General Authorities or local bishops, because I think my approach would be different. I trust generally speaking the General Authorities are good men trying to follow the Savior and lead the church according to the direction of the Savior, and there is no conspiracy or whatnot. I don't really feel much connection to them or what they have to do with my life. It's in the background, albeit a mostly nice background. For local bishops and such, I have no expectation at all from them anymore. I know better lol. I have been in leadership positions and I don't ever want to be again and I'm glad it's not me and I'm willing to give ward leadership a lot of room for mistakes because that's the Golden Rule, I know I made plenty in the same callings. So I get it now. I'm just in awe now that men accept these callings at all and do their best--whatever that is--and I find it even more precious in awe some great moments I've had with bishops or Relief Society prezzes or whatever--the times they really met me and loved me. By the same token, if I don't agree with something, then I don't. Or if I need to speak up, I do. Or if something doesn't get done or goes wrong, I process the situation and move on. I do know there is 'mantle' or whatever you want to call it. I've seen it, felt it. Quote Where do you question? Everything. My questions are my faith. My questions are the conception beginning of my revelation. I have a process--or rather, God has a process and taught it to me--that I 'set' a question. I know, know, know, know from experience after experience after experience after experience that I will be answered. It may take 10 seconds, it may take 10+ years. It used to happen organically--a question would affect my mind and heart, and I didn't even really have to do specific study, although I could also, but things would be brought to me over time, until I would realize (sometimes years later) that I had clarity on it. It would surprise me. Now I am conscious of the process and literally 'set' a question and then I know I am in the answer process. That is why on this board (I doubt anyone would have noticed, nevertheless) I use the phrase "in my level of understanding" because this is due to what questions I may have asked, and where I am at in the answer process; I don't see everything yet--I only see what I see right now. Puzzle pieces come bits by bits, and sometimes questions and answers have to take place before I have enough conceptual and energetic structure to comprehend an earlier answer I wanted. This process has absolutely nothing to do with any church leaders whatsoever. Rather, Isaiah 54:13 'taught of the Lord'. It is the Conversation that I am having with God every second of every day in the veil of this lifetime. Between ME and HIM and no one else. Quote What do you feel free in disagreeing with? I have felt much discomfort over the years as I have learned to do things based on my own revelation and experience, needs, choices, preferences, personality, etc etc--to trust myself and my own agency--when I have thought about it in foil to what I learned at Church or thought I learned at Church. It's a process that makes me sad, mad, dismayed, betrayed, bewilderedd, alone, etc. For example, way back when I started to work instead of being a stay-at-home mom. Even that was a huge fracture for me from what I thought God/leaders wanted and even I wanted for myself, and some different adventure that God was actually calling me to. I felt evil. I had to re-learn God. Or un-learn the God I thought I had had. (I was helped by some Buddhist (I think?) principles that described how everyone goes through this fracture of how you once thought things were; i.e. if you're bewildered, you're going the right direction.) I continue to feel discomfort because I know there are some things that, forget Church leaders, even if Jesus himself were standing in front of me (which basically He is, so He's heard this before lol), I would give him a piece of my mind! One that is really big for me right now (to keep the list short, just saying one) is the 'modesty' 'principle'. I can't even. To me, the modest-immodest axis of judgment, conception, viewpoint, etc is one of the greatest bondages and falsehoods there is. Enough already. Well, I'd tell you what I'm going to do with this dissonance . . . if I knew. All I can do is be myself and keep learning. I'll either be right or I'll be wrong. And if I'm right, others will catch up to me. And if I'm wrong, I'll catch up to them. Quote What does "all-in" mean to you? Well, I don't know what this means at all. I don't think it has meaning in the Church concepts. Quote How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? Not sure, because I don't consider myself those things, and don't use those value judgments at all for anyone inside or outside of the church. It's much lighter after I laid down that rock. 😄 But if I'm being honest, I do feel way out from the Church or the Church I once thought I knew; but then every once in a while I get a glimpse that the church is not about agreement, it is about union, which is not the same thing at all; and I do have such a great ward, the women there are very loving of everyone, they don't need anything from me or from each other, not even 'correct' belief, except to be there, so I do. Be there. I go by Elder Uchtdorf's once invitation to find reasons to stay, so I do. And that there is a place for me. So I go with that for now, unless I feel specifically called to go somewhere else in the future. But I don't want to simply be running away; I want to be going toward the revelation and the greater union and agency and integrity, etc. So God and I go round and round each week it seems. "You done with me yet?" he asks. "Nope," I say as I throw on a skirt and get ready to attend the temple. "You done with me yet?" I ask Him. "Nope," he says. "Okay then," he continues, "I'll meet you there." "Yep. I'm coming." Edited June 14, 2019 by Maidservant 10 Link to comment
JAHS Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 1 hour ago, changed said: Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake You would have to ask his wife that question; I bet she could provide a long list. Oh you mean as the leader of the church? The words of Mr Spock from Star Trek come to mind regarding this: "You're the captain of this ship. You haven't the right to be vulnerable in the eyes of the crew. You can't afford the luxury of being anything less than perfect. If you do, they lose faith and you lose command." That's why he can't apologize, but he can make corrections when needed. Despite what Spock said, all faithful members know that no man is perfect, that is why they are able to ignore some things that might seem wrong and require no apologies, because they know God will not let him make any serious mistakes. And things will eventually always work out for our good. In all my 60 plus years in the church I can not think of one thing that any prophet should have apologized to me for. 3 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 14, 2019 1 hour ago, changed said: How far do you trust church leadership? As far as they align with revelation, both canonised and personal. Quote Where do you question? Nearly everywhere ... right up to the point where revelation and personal experience resolve my questions. Quote What do you feel free in disagreeing with? Privately? Anything. Publicly? Anything specific revelation has told me that I should. Quote What does "all-in" mean to you? I know from repeated personal experience that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on the Earth, complete with priesthood keys of authority and the power of revelation. Why would I want to be anywhere else? 8 Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, JAHS said: You would have to ask his wife that question; I bet she could provide a long list. Oh you mean as the leader of the church? The words of Mr Spock from Star Trek come to mind regarding this: "You're the captain of this ship. You haven't the right to be vulnerable in the eyes of the crew. You can't afford the luxury of being anything less than perfect. If you do, they lose faith and you lose command." That's why he can't apologize, but he can make corrections when needed. Despite what Spock said, all faithful members know that no man is perfect, that is why they are able to ignore some things that might seem wrong and require no apologies, because they know God will not let him make any serious mistakes. And things will eventually always work out for our good. In all my 60 plus years in the church I can not think of one thing that any prophet should have apologized to me for. I think Blacks and the priesthood was a serious mistake... I think not baptizing children of LGBT parents was a serious mistake. I can name a few more things I consider to be serious mistakes but that would derail the thread... I am going to have to disagree with Spock - even within a military operation. If a commander in an army starts yelling at soldiers to kill innocent people, a good soldier would not obey. I do not see the church as a ship or a military unit - I think it should be more of a school, trying to help people to progress - and part of progression is learning how to think for oneself.. Good teachers do not just give their students all the answers... 1 Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: As far as they align with revelation, both canonised and personal. Nearly everywhere ... right up to the point where revelation and personal experience resolve my questions. Privately? Anything. Publicly? Anything specific revelation has told me that I should. I know from repeated personal experience that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Kingdom of God on the Earth, complete with priesthood keys of authority and the power of revelation. Why would I want to be anywhere else? So - let's say there is some issue, such as Blacks the the priesthood, which do not align with your revelation... (had this discussion with my Stake Pres)... He said - I did not agree with it, but I kept silent about it. ... I thought that was horrible - to know people are suffering and excluded and there is racism, but not say anything? Not try to help those who are hurting over it? From the LDS Church's Handbook of Instructions, Section 6.7.3: Apostasy …[A]postasy refers to members who: Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its leaders. ... not being able to disagree - question - or "oppose" imperfect leaders is a bit... I guess I will not say it. Sam Young also comes to mind. It started with Sam's own children you know - and blew up into what it is now... he was thrown into this very real problem, with legitimate concerns - and was excommunicated for it... Edited June 14, 2019 by changed 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Hamba Tuhan Posted June 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 14, 2019 3 minutes ago, changed said: So - let's say there is some issue ... which do [sic] not align with your revelation... But that's the thing. It's not my revelation. It has to be God's, or it's worthless. Elsewhere on this forum, I've posted about what happened when God told me -- in spoken words in, of all places, the temple's font -- to disagree with my stake president. Because it was of God, it all worked out beautifully in the end, with my stake president and my bishop all independently receiving the exact same message. Genuine revelation is a beautiful thing. Too many times, however, we Church members get into real trouble concluding that every thought and feeling we have is somehow God talking to us. It's not. And even when He tells us that we are right, He often tells us just to wait for Him to take care of things. The Kingdom is His; He knows how to guide and shape it according to His master plan. 10 Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: A very recent article on that by Duane Boyce just came out in Interpreter, https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/yes-its-true-but-i-dont-think-they-like-to-hear-it-quite-that-way-what-spencer-w-kimball-told-elaine-cannon/ . A number of readers made comments, including me, dealing with the issue of infallibility. Some great quotes in there - when the prophet speaks, the debate is over. - “Yes, it’s true, but I don’t think they like to hear it quite that way.”.... “when our leaders speak, the thinking has been done.”... The same idea said any number of ways comes across the same. It appears the prophet considers himself to be infallible, considers himself to be perfect - which to me is blasphemous... ..."We need to much more carefully address whether in fact our prophets are infallible, and whether everything they say is the very word of prophecy." So when does everyone think the prophet is speaking for God, vs. not? .... thus saith the Lord____ ← when was the last time anyone said that?? and if they do not say it, then just ignore it? thus saith the Lord... all children 12 years and older shall meet privately behind closed with their bishop and discuss their sexual morality? thus saith the Lord... children of LGBT parents will be excluded from church?? thus saith the Lord all those of African decent shall not be given the priesthood? Edited June 14, 2019 by changed 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Last public one I know off the top of my head: 2016. D Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve donated $250 to Richard Nelson who was running for the Utah State School Board. This violated Church policy on General Authorities contributing to political campaigns. He apologized for the mistake. 3 Link to comment
SettingDogStar Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 In the D&C Joseph and many others are rebuked many times for being slothful, not diligent, and unfocused. These kinds of revelations (at least published) seemed to have ceased after that. Interesting observation is all I have to say. 2 Link to comment
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted June 14, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 14, 2019 2 hours ago, changed said: .............. The same idea said any number of ways comes across the same. It appears the prophet considers himself to be infallible, considers himself to be perfect - which to me is blasphemous... .................. So when does everyone think the prophet is speaking for God, vs. not? .... thus saith the Lord____ ← when was the last time anyone said that?? and if they do not say it, then just ignore it? thus saith the Lord... all children 12 years and older shall meet privately behind closed with their bishop and discuss their sexual morality? thus saith the Lord... children of LGBT parents will be excluded from church?? thus saith the Lord all those of African decent shall not be given the priesthood? The problem is that you have just invented a completely false narrative. You came to the article not to learn what had been said and done, but instead with already formed views (most of them false) on what had taken place. Instead of quoting what was actually said, and commenting upon it, you instead decided for turn your supposed enemies into devils. Which is a very convenient ploy, because then you don't have to have a real discussion. 6 Link to comment
MustardSeed Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) When I am taught something, I pray about it before I implement it. I don’t do everything im told to do, it’s not possible to. I don’t see any person as infallible. My SP taught a 5th Sunday on chastity and said that we needed to be accountable to our spouses for all things and that it would be wise to have access to and check phone records on the regular. Felt pretty wrong to me. I didn’t follow the directive. Turns out he’s been diagnosed with some paranoid depression. Sounds pretty human to me. Edited June 14, 2019 by MustardSeed 1 Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: But that's the thing. It's not my revelation. It has to be God's, or it's worthless. Elsewhere on this forum, I've posted about what happened when God told me -- in spoken words in, of all places, the temple's font -- to disagree with my stake president. Because it was of God, it all worked out beautifully in the end, with my stake president and my bishop all independently receiving the exact same message. Genuine revelation is a beautiful thing. Too many times, however, we Church members get into real trouble concluding that every thought and feeling we have is somehow God talking to us. It's not. And even when He tells us that we are right, He often tells us just to wait for Him to take care of things. The Kingdom is His; He knows how to guide and shape it according to His master plan. I think the safest bet is to take data from a variety of sources - more than my own head, and also more than the church as well, into consideration. Yes - people from may different denominations claim guidance from God and perhaps receive it for themselves - I just do not see anyone as holding the keys to any other person's salvation, believe that we are all accountable for ourselves, and to God directly without a middleman. Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The problem is that you have just invented a completely false narrative. You came to the article not to learn what had been said and done, but instead with already formed views (most of them false) on what had taken place. Instead of quoting what was actually said, and commenting upon it, you instead decided for turn your supposed enemies into devils. Which is a very convenient ploy, because then you don't have to have a real discussion. You are avoiding the issue - yes or no. Do prophets consider themselves to be infallible? When is a prophet or leader speaking for God, and when are they not? Edited June 14, 2019 by changed Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: Last public one I know off the top of my head: 2016. D Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve donated $250 to Richard Nelson who was running for the Utah State School Board. This violated Church policy on General Authorities contributing to political campaigns. He apologized for the mistake. and paid back the $250? Do you have a reference for that? Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 11 hours ago, Duncan said: Elder McConkie saying "forget everything", both Pres. Faust and Pres. Uchtdorf saying that Prophets sometimes make mistakes, I think Elder Marlin Jensen apologized for prop 8 or something to that effect-these come to mind. This is what comes up when I google "Elder Marlin Jensen apologized for prop 8" "https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elder-jensen-prop-8-apology_b_739609" The headline “Elder Marlin Jensen Apologizes for Proposition 8” is a bit misleading. I was present at the meeting. There was a great deal of pain expressed by a number of people about their experiences around Prop 8 and the larger context of church policy regarding gay people. It was a remarkable meeting, and Elder Jensen took copious notes and was visibly emotionally touched as he listened to the stories. At no time did he say anything like, “I know Proposition 8 was a mistake and I apologize for that mistake.” He was responding personally and in general to the extraordinary pain he was witnessing. No one had a tape recorder, but I wrote down the words, “...Do we owe an apology? I will say I am sorry. To the full extent of my capacity I say I am sorry.” It was a sincere and moving statement. It would not be constructive to make his statement sound like something it was not. The meeting itself was an historical event, for which I and many others are deeply grateful. 1 Link to comment
changed Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 10 hours ago, SteveO said: A more interesting question: when the examples you seem to think don’t exist inevitably appear, are you going to be able to admit your mistake? Still waiting for legit examples SteveO... Link to comment
churchistrue Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 11 hours ago, changed said: The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Another point of conversation - how far do you trust church leadership? Where do you question? What do you feel free in disagreeing with? In seeing a leader as someone who is imperfect and does not always get everything right? What does "all-in" mean to you? How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? I'm "all-in". To me, it means I'm there on Sunday. I'm trying to do my part to contribute. I watch general conference. I take in the messages. I don't feel like I'm compelled to agree with anything. So the answer to the question "what do you feel free in disagreeing with?" is: everything. I do feel compelled to listen and take everything seriously and struggle with it to see if it's something I should try to bend myself to. Sometimes I disagree because I'm right and others are wrong. Sometimes I disagree because I'm wrong and others are right. 2 Link to comment
CV75 Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, changed said: The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Another point of conversation - how far do you trust church leadership? Where do you question? What do you feel free in disagreeing with? In seeing a leader as someone who is imperfect and does not always get everything right? What does "all-in" mean to you? How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? Though I see many examples on this page of Church leaders admitting and apologizing for mistakes, I do not require evidence or proof of their fallibility. I just assume that they are, and that they do make mistakes, and live my religion. They have the keys, and I am grateful to God for what I have obtained as a result of their exercise, but what I do with those blessings is between me and the Lord. I don't mistrust, question or disagree enough, and certainly don't see any leader as imperfect enough, to comment. I do not consider infallibility a criterion at all, so won't comment on the absence thereof. I try to be "all-in" given my many weaknesses, and I hope with a measure of confidence that the Lord accepts my offering. In a way, this is the Lord's example for me to follow in how I accept what the leaders offer. Edited June 14, 2019 by CV75 1 Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 11 hours ago, changed said: The prophet does not claim to be perfect, and yet.... Name a time where the prophet (or apostles, etc.) admitted to, and apologized for making a mistake. Another point of conversation - how far do you trust church leadership? Where do you question? What do you feel free in disagreeing with? In seeing a leader as someone who is imperfect and does not always get everything right? What does "all-in" mean to you? How much do you have to agree with and follow to consider yourself a solid and worthy member of the church? Our tradition and expectations around prophetic fallibility are not healthy. There are a few statements by some leaders that call for some nuance and moderation, but the dominant narrative gives preference to deferring to the prophet and aligning with leaders. From the songs we sing to the way that junior members of the Q15 act all the way down the chain of command in the patriarchal hierarchy. Its a very unhealthy tradition in this sense. From my perspective the church operates more like a military dictatorship than a democratic by common consent organization. Its unfortunate, and I'm not sure that it can change significantly. The few slightly more independent minded people always seem to be squeezed out of leadership and the more obedience types are given privilege. Look at Uchtdorf and Hugh Brown as examples in the Q15. Perhaps if priesthood were finally granted to women, it would mix up this dynamic. Perhaps if more emphasis were given to personal revelation, and we ditched the follow the prophet idol worship. I can dream, can't I. 2 Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 11 hours ago, Duncan said: Elder McConkie saying "forget everything", both Pres. Faust and Pres. Uchtdorf saying that Prophets sometimes make mistakes, I think Elder Marlin Jensen apologized for prop 8 or something to that effect-these come to mind. So few and far between, sadly we can count the exceptions to the rule on one hand.... Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 22 minutes ago, churchistrue said: I'm "all-in". To me, it means I'm there on Sunday. I'm trying to do my part to contribute. I watch general conference. I take in the messages. I don't feel like I'm compelled to agree with anything. So the answer to the question "what do you feel free in disagreeing with?" is: everything. I do feel compelled to listen and take everything seriously and struggle with it to see if it's something I should try to bend myself to. Sometimes I disagree because I'm right and others are wrong. Sometimes I disagree because I'm wrong and others are right. I think its great to realize that people like yourself exist in this church and can continue to navigate it while having a very healthy and skeptical approach to authority. But you are an outlier in the dominant culture. Link to comment
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