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What To Do When Loved Ones Leave the Church


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On ‎6‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 3:15 AM, Stargazer said:

Does anyone here know my kids?  Does anyone here know me?  I've personally met Morningstar and Bernard Gui, but they don't know them either.  What are you worried about, anyway?  That someone here will report to my kids that I am disappointed that most of them have gone the way of the world?  That they will be shocked, SHOCKED! to discover this?  

Are you worried about the fallout that would occur if my kids found out I use them as examples?  I'm touched at your concern.

Oh, for crying out loud! They don't NEED to be told that I'm disappointed that they have "gone gentile", as it were, because they definitely know it.  I don't need to have told them, but they've told me in one way or another that they know that their mother and I were and are disappointed that they prefer the way of the world over the way of God.  I'm proud of them in other ways, and they do know that, because I've told them, where appropriate.

I have a suggestion, bishop: why don't you worry about your own failings in respect of your family and stop trying to chide me about things you think are my failings in respect of my family?  

I wasn't trying to get personal. I only use your example (that you freely shared) because it illustrates the point of the post. IMO people often feel they are very loving of their family members or friends who leave the church, yet it is obvious to everyone (including the person who left) that the love has conditions. People know that others are talking about them. They know that they are used as cautionary tails. They know others feel deep disappointment. Why would it be any surprise that this person would pull away from interaction with members or the church as a whole? Why would anyone want to be around people who pity them or are constantly disappointed. It doesn't feel loving to that person so they are most likely to stay away, and yes, that hurts relationships.

 

Edited by HappyJackWagon
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21 hours ago, let’s roll said:

The “disconnect,” “hurting” and “wide gulf” you describe, I believe, foreshadow the eternal experience for those of God’s children who choose to not join Him in His work.

Our premortal experience with Him will no longer be veiled from us, our love for Him which motivated our decision to come to Earth will be restored, we will feel of His perfect love for us.

We will see clearly our mortal decisions to ignore His promptings and invitations, the “huge gulf” we decided to build between Him and us will be evident.

We will also recognize that our mortal decisions to choose our own path prevented us from allowing Him to refine our souls in such a way that our soul would desire, and be capable of, joining Him in His work.  We will realize we have “disconnected” ourselves from Him.

He will love us always, in His perfect way, including honoring (i.e. not changing) our agency and the consequences thereof.  We will recognize and feel of that perfect love and will “hurt” as a result of our inability to reciprocate that love in the way we once intended...that hurt will forever burn.

 

And this is the other point of the OP. When someone leaves it really does hurt their believing family and friends because of the eternal consequences they expect.

So, those who leave feel hurt by those who stay

AND, those who stay feel hurt by those who leave.

Finding better ways to discuss these things, and recognizing ways in which each side is triggered, may be helpful in reducing the hurt.

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4 hours ago, california boy said:

.  I am just giving my perspective from someone who was not invited to these types fo events. So it does happen.  I also think if they are invited to these events, how the person is invited matters. It can feel like an obligation or it can feel like they are sincerely wanted there to celebrate important milestones. 

I am sure there are families who don't invite for a variety of reasons or who invite in ways that sap the desire to go.

This even happens to other believers in my experience.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, california boy said:

 I didn't feel a sense of loss of those ordinances

I don't believe my daughter feels a loss, though it may be in part she doesn't really remember a time she thinks she believed herself rather than just followed family behaviour. 

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4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Why would anyone want to be around people who pity them or are constantly disappointed. 

Because that is part of life perhaps.

I know those who look at choices I have made based on my health and they are disappointed and pity me for it as they think I could have been better off if i had just pushed myself more.  I got a lecture from one of them about how I was failing my daughter by not attending RS meetings.  It is not pleasant, but relationships that are truly meaningful often aren't.

Edited by Calm
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14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Because that is part of life perhaps.

I know those who look at choices I have made based on my health and they are disappointed and pity me for it as they think I could have been better off if i had just pushed myself more.  I got a lecture from one of them about how I was failing my daughter by not attending RS meetings.  It is not pleasant, but relationships that are truly meaningful often aren't.

No. I don't think surrounding ourselves with people who view us negatively is a part of life.

 

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26 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

No. I don't think surrounding ourselves with people who view us negatively is a part of life.

 

If all they did was view us negatively, sure, but I don't believe that is what is being discussed when talking about disappointment over leaving the Church in most cases; after all, most relationships are not purely positive in my experience, but a mix.  Disappointment in one area is often coupled with pride in another.  If we were to exclude anyone and everyone who held a persistent negative opinion about something we did, I suspect we would end up alone pretty quickly.

Those occasional experiences of negativity are balanced or outweighed by more frequent positive experiences.

Edited by Calm
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On 6/24/2019 at 2:53 AM, california boy said:

Why in the world would you not include them in celebrating a baptism, a mission call etc?  Seriously, I really want to know because my family did the same thing to me.  I was never invited to hear a mission talk, or attend a baptism of a niece or nephew or a blessing of a new born child.  I could never understand this kind of thinking.  I still can't.  THIS really reinforces the message that if you are not in the Church, you are no longer a member of the family.  You made your choice, now you have to live with the consequences.  You call this compassion?  What do you do that is compassionate?  Call them up and say, I feel really bad you can't participate in your nephew's farewell address?  But you made the choice to leave.  We haven't changed, you have.  Save your prayers.  Save your outpouring of love.  If the person is invited and encouraged to attend, they won't feel sadness for not being able to participate.  They should be allowed to participate.  We get that temple sealing are off limits.  But blessings? Baptisms?  Mission Calls?

You totally misunderstood my comments.  We ALWAYS include all family in baby blessings, baptisms, missions--sacrament talks, etc.  What I referred to is that some of the extended family members don't attend and have made it known they don't want to be included.  Others in the extended family are comfortable to be invited to a church service and share in the event, but some don't and it upsets them when they are invited.  It's hard to know what do to-- with trial and error, we've tried to make sure that they all feel welcome and the ones who are bitter about the church, we know from past experience, we don't invite them to the church services, but of course they are invited to the family celebrations.

 

On 6/24/2019 at 2:53 AM, california boy said:

People seem to be wondering why platitudes of "we love you" fall on deaf ears.  For many years, I was also not invited to any family gatherings.  At the same time, I would get these letters from my father that would start out something like "My dear beloved son, who I will love always."  Those expressions of love made me more angry and estranged than it did any feelings of caring for me.  So many of you have expressed how no matter what you do, your children push you away.  Believe me, sometimes it hurts much less to just distance yourself rather than feel the kind of anger some of these letters of "love" express.  

I am really not trying to just be negative here, but just giving my perspective from someone who has lived through these very scenarios you describe.  For anyone who is wondering why their children can't accept your love, maybe it is because so much of that love is conditional on how you think that person should be living their lives.  You aren't responsible for their salvation.  You are not even responsible for the way they choose to live their lives.  For the most part, these are adults we are talking about.  It is only between them and Christ.  As long as you hold on to the idea that if you can just get them to just do what you want them to do, they will be happier, you are never going to get closer to them.  You can't change them or the choices they make.  Is all you can do is change how you deal with those choices.  Drop the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mantra.  Replace it with "love the sinner, let God deal with the sin".  

Just my advice.  No one has to believe it or follow it.  But if what you are doing isn't working, well then I have given you an alternative.

 

I'm sorry you had a family who didn't invite you to family gatherings--I hate that--I've seen it happen in families.  Some won't let a couple who are living together stay under their roof unless they sleep in separate beds--ir sent them to a motel when the rest of the family stayed at the house--my family never did that, but those who I know who did that, drove a wedge in their family.  Those in my own extended family all get along great, though some are inactive and some have resigned membership because we've always kept our loved ones as close as possible and not let their disaffection from the church and their lifestyles do anything to harm our family relationships.  We accept them for who they are and in turn, they accept us.  What my family is doing is working perfectly.

 

Choices have consequences, but the consequence doesn't have to mean estrangement from a family--following the admonitions of the Savior to love one another has he has loved us can help to keep a family together.  But it's both sides.  My family works because our family members who have left the church did not shut us out, but also made an effort to keep the familial relationships strong.

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On 6/24/2019 at 1:35 AM, california boy said:

Sorry, but I think this is the core of the problem.  The idea that the Church is the only path back to God and if you are not on THAT path, then all is lost and you will move further away from God into a downward spiral that will never lead to a better relationship with God.  I am here to tell you that is not always true.  Sometimes a stronger relationship with Christ is more important and guiding than church attendance and following the Church's current policies.  There is NO greater teacher than the Holy Spirit.  And that teacher seems to care less what church you attend if you learn to trust God rather than men no matter who they claim to be.

Maybe I am reading the intent of your post wrong. But this attitude is definitely widespread among members of the Church.  It certainly was with my family for many years.  Their sole goal was for me to forsake my " lifestyle" and come back to where I belonged.  My father, who is quite elderly made it his mission to get me back in the Church before he died.  His solution to my " problem"?  Find another wife that I could love.  LOL.  Seriously.  Because the only way to happiness from his perspective is through the Church's Plan of Happiness which can only be accessed through the Church.  Their attitude was to love the sinner, hate the sin.  It is a false mantra that you hear a lot.  Trouble is, they don't love the sinner no matter how may times they say they do.  They love someone different.  Someone they have conjured up to be who they want them to be.  It wasn't until my family decided to love me and not this person I was never going to become, and leave the judgement of me to God that things began to change.  That only took 13 years.

I am no more closer to coming back to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than I was all those years ago.  But my family does have a son back, a brother back, an uncle back.  And they have come to love my partner and see my happiness.  That love doesn't feel so hollow any longer. 

I hope this perspective is helpful to at least someone out there.

Thank you for your thoughts.  I’m happy that you feel you’re in a good place with both your family and Deity.

I’m not sure what you saw in my post that led you to believe it was saying the Church is the only way back to God.  My post didn’t even mention the Church.  Anyone who understands the doctrine of the Church will readily concede that the vast majority of the inhabitants of the Celestial Kingdom will not have been members of the Church.

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On 6/24/2019 at 3:00 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

I wasn't trying to get personal. I only use your example (that you freely shared) because it illustrates the point of the post. IMO people often feel they are very loving of their family members or friends who leave the church, yet it is obvious to everyone (including the person who left) that the love has conditions. People know that others are talking about them. They know that they are used as cautionary tails. They know others feel deep disappointment. Why would it be any surprise that this person would pull away from interaction with members or the church as a whole? Why would anyone want to be around people who pity them or are constantly disappointed. It doesn't feel loving to that person so they are most likely to stay away, and yes, that hurts relationships.

 

Yeah, well, I guess my skin is being a little too thin concerning this -- so nevermind.

But I still don't see what the primary issue is.  Those children who leave the church either formally by name-removal or informally by not attending cannot possibly NOT know that their still-believing/still-active parents are disappointed in them, even if those parents never say word 1 to those children about it.  Do you not agree?

My occasionally mentioning in the context of a lesson or talk the unfortunate situations that those inactive children now find themselves in because of their disregarding of what they were taught when they were young, much of the time without naming them (and I have 12 children and stepchildren, btw, so there's plenty of doubt as to who I might be talking about), to people who live 4,000 miles away and will most certainly never meet them, is not going to hurt any relationships.  Unless I tell them that I'm using their problems as examples, which I don't feel inclined to do.  Note that I'm not doing this every week - I only teach in EQ about once every other month and it's only very occasionally I am asked to give a talk, and so far only a few of these opportunities involved using my children as negative examples.  I'm not spouting about it every week, in other words.

 

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On 6/24/2019 at 7:55 PM, The Nehor said:

All these weird hallway measures. Does no one read the scriptures anymore that say you should just stone them?

What's a "hallway measure"?  Something one does in the hallway?  Which would be...?  Stoning them down a hallway?  I guess that would make dodging harder, at least, a "fish in a barrel" kind of thing, then.

Edited by Stargazer
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37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

disappointed in them,

I think one can be disappointed for without being disappointed in someone for leaving the Church. 

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On 6/25/2019 at 5:35 PM, alter idem said:

You totally misunderstood my comments.  We ALWAYS include all family in baby blessings, baptisms, missions--sacrament talks, etc.  What I referred to is that some of the extended family members don't attend and have made it known they don't want to be included.  Others in the extended family are comfortable to be invited to a church service and share in the event, but some don't and it upsets them when they are invited.  It's hard to know what do to-- with trial and error, we've tried to make sure that they all feel welcome and the ones who are bitter about the church, we know from past experience, we don't invite them to the church services, but of course they are invited to the family celebrations.

 

I'm sorry you had a family who didn't invite you to family gatherings--I hate that--I've seen it happen in families.  Some won't let a couple who are living together stay under their roof unless they sleep in separate beds--ir sent them to a motel when the rest of the family stayed at the house--my family never did that, but those who I know who did that, drove a wedge in their family.  Those in my own extended family all get along great, though some are inactive and some have resigned membership because we've always kept our loved ones as close as possible and not let their disaffection from the church and their lifestyles do anything to harm our family relationships.  We accept them for who they are and in turn, they accept us.  What my family is doing is working perfectly.

 

Choices have consequences, but the consequence doesn't have to mean estrangement from a family--following the admonitions of the Savior to love one another has he has loved us can help to keep a family together.  But it's both sides.  My family works because our family members who have left the church did not shut us out, but also made an effort to keep the familial relationships strong.

I apologize for reading your post wrong.  Obviously it is a sensitive issue with me.  I still don't understand why my family. never invited me to these kinds of church milestone activities or anything else for that matter.  Fortunately after 13 years, this is all behind us and I am now included in family activities.  The irony is they really have shown a lot of love for my partner and make sure he is also invited now.  I just wish no one else would ever have to go through that kind of treatment from their family.  But like you said choices have consequences and I never once felt like I have made the wrong choice for me. If that was the price I had to pay for my choice, then it was still the right choice.

I think choices have consequences works the other way as well.  Several family members have come to me with tears in their eyes asking for my forgiveness, which I freely gave.  They regretted that I was not a part of their lives or their children's for so many years.  Most of my nieces and nephews I can't even recognize. They were kids when I last knew them.

Edited by california boy
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

I think one can be disappointed for without being disappointed in someone for leaving the Church. 

Perhaps.  

But if one is convinced of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and seeks to "be about ... Father's business," would not the prospect of one's progeny having placed themselves out the Celestial Kingdom be a disappointment in and of itself?  By having abandoned a number of moral principles that they were taught by their mother and I, as well as the Church, some of my progeny have caused a great deal of unnecessary difficulty in their lives.  If they had merely "left" the church and maintained obedience to some of the other principles they were taught, they would probably have done better in their lives, and while our disappointment would still have been there, it wouldn't have been as deep.

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

I apologize for reading your post wrong.  Obviously it is a sensitive issue with me.  I still don't understand why my family. never invited me to these kinds of church milestone activities or anything else for that matter.  Fortunately after 13 years, this is all behind us and I am now included in family activities.  The irony is they really have shown a lot of love for my partner and make sure he is also invited now.  I just wish no one else would ever have to go through that kind of treatment from their family.  But like you said choices have consequences and I never once felt like I have made the wrong choice for me. If that was the price I had to pay for my choice, then it was still the right choice.

I think choices have consequences works the other way as well.  Several family members have come to me with tears in their eyes asking for my forgiveness, which I freely gave.  They regretted that I was not a part of their lives or their children's for so many years.  Most of my nieces and nephews I can't even recognize. They were kids when I last knew them.

I'm really happy that your family has begun to change, that's wonderful and I'm glad that some of them have even recognized that how they treated you before was wrong on their part.  That's great, they NEED to repent and change.  I've seen examples in families who rejected or marginalized their loved ones because they left the church or chose a lifestyle they didn't agree with, personally I was disturbed to see this happen for the damage it causes and in my family, we luckily didn't make those mistakes.  We could have, it was common 20 or 30 years ago.  I often thank heavenly father for helping us to have not made those mistakes and the subsequent blessing of having strong, loving ties and close relationships.  Some I know used the excuse that they were protecting their young impressionable children against the negative influence they thought a 'bad example' in the family would have on trying to teach values and standards, but we weren't willing to sacrifice a loved one out of fear and can say that those fears are unfounded as it never has been a concern in our extended family.  And, it seems to me that it's getting better over time, but it's too bad, you were one of those who suffered.

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On 6/24/2019 at 9:00 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

I wasn't trying to get personal. I only use your example (that you freely shared) because it illustrates the point of the post. IMO people often feel they are very loving of their family members or friends who leave the church, yet it is obvious to everyone (including the person who left) that the love has conditions. People know that others are talking about them. They know that they are used as cautionary tails. They know others feel deep disappointment. Why would it be any surprise that this person would pull away from interaction with members or the church as a whole? Why would anyone want to be around people who pity them or are constantly disappointed. It doesn't feel loving to that person so they are most likely to stay away, and yes, that hurts relationships.

 

I think you are conflating love with approval here when you state that love is conditional.

I have known LDS families that intentionally ‘exile’ apostates/inactive but they usually seem to be on the fringes of the church and are not all that engaged with the gospel themselves. The strong families who seem dedicated to Christ and his gospel seem to want to hold on to relationships though sometimes they distance themselves for their own safety when the situation is toxic (drug addiction, criminal behavior) or when the person who left is aggressive in tearing down beliefs. While my immediate family is almost all active my extended family is about 50/50 and I have never seen ostracism at our events and the only “forced religion” is blessing dinner.

I realize this borders on the “no true Scotsman” fallacy but I genuinely believe that the solution is more gospel for those who are afraid to associate with their inactive or apostate family.

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The link is to a Webinar for those that have members of their family that are questioning.

https://jodymoore.com/questions-the-church-lp/?fbclid=IwAR2z6_c7j-Bot4Ok1KC7W2saCD3iCd8rEagiUwHn7U-BmHpRmEvNzAisZJM

Live Webinar: When A Loved One Questions The Church

I work with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

My clients are great people.

They love their kids and spouses and friends.

They want to see them happy and healthy and that includes Spiritually.

But when a loved one is questioning (or choosing to leave) the church, we have the opportunity to respond in a way that serves us or to make things even more challenging.

My clients know that people need to make their own choices, but that doesn’t help eliminate the sadness or worry they feel in this circumstance.

Join me for a free webinar where I’ll be teaching how I help my clients out of the pain and worry and into confidence and love. I’ve coached thousands of individuals in this scenario and the answers are simpler than you might think. 

Me: Now to the negative, in the webinar, I doubt she'll mention anything about their loved ones being ex'd down the road. For instance I recently listened to the recent podcast on Mormon Stories about a former bishop being called in for discipline and will most likely be ex'd.

I don't get it, the only thing this former bishop did was post a few things on FB and supported Sam Young's cause (stake president said Sam's an apostate). It's amazing to me the people that are ex'd and the people that do crime aren't, such as pedophiles, that I know of, such as the film director of a couple of temple movies.

It's violent to their believing family members as well, since you are cutting their loved ones off. Granted this bishop no longer believes nor does his wife now, but why not let these people alone?

Please notice in the intro what sparked Jared's non-belief.....wait for it.....Gospel Topics Essays! Not anti information, worse...truth!

Introduction to the podcast:

Join us now on Mormon Stories Podcast as we interview Jared, Gwen, and Madison Lusk. This episode is a continuation in our series highlight former Mormon bishops and their families who have experienced a faith crisis. Jared is set to be excommunicated on June 30th, 2019 for apostasy.

The Lusks live in Farmington, New Mexico. Jared and Gwen were raised as devout Mormons, married in the Jordan River temple, had 6 children, and established a successful dental practice in Farmington, NM. Jared and Gwen devoted their lives to the Mormon church for 45+ years, including Jared serving as bishop from 2008-2013, and Gwen serving in multiple callings.

Jared’s faith crisis was triggered in 2015 when he began reading the LDS Gospel Topics Essays. Jared and Gwen experienced a mixed faith marriage for a few years. In April of 2018, while being released from a stake calling, Jared shared with his stake president and one of the counselors details regarding his faith crisis. The stake president immediately took Jared’s temple recommend away, and then released Gwen from her calling and took her temple recommend away a few weeks later. Madison (18) resigned from the church in April, 2019.

After Jared began expressing public support for Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children movement, along with expressing public feelings about the church’s truth claims, Jared was summoned to a disciplinary council. Jared faces excommunication on June 30th, 2019 at 6pm at the Farmington, NM stake center.

Edited by Tacenda
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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The link is to a Webnar for those that have members of their family that are questioning.

https://jodymoore.com/questions-the-church-lp/?fbclid=IwAR2z6_c7j-Bot4Ok1KC7W2saCD3iCd8rEagiUwHn7U-BmHpRmEvNzAisZJM

Now to the negative, recently listened to the recent podcast on MS. And this former bishop is being called in for discipline or will most likely be ex'd. I don't get it, the only thing this former bishop did was post a few things on FB and supports Sam Young (stake president said Sam's an apostate). It's amazing to me the people that are ex'd and the people that do crime aren't, such as pedophiles, that I know of such as the film director of a couple of temple movies.

It's violent to their believing family members as well, since you are cutting their loved ones off. Granted this bishop no longer believes nor does his wife now, but why not let these people alone?

Please notice in the intro what sparked Jared's non-belief.....wait for it.....Gospel Topics Essays! Not anti information, worse...truth!

Introduction to the podcast:

Join us now on Mormon Stories Podcast as we interview Jared, Gwen, and Madison Lusk. This episode is a continuation in our series highlight former Mormon bishops and their families who have experienced a faith crisis. Jared is set to be excommunicated on June 30th, 2019 for apostasy.

The Lusks live in Farmington, New Mexico. Jared and Gwen were raised as devout Mormons, married in the Jordan River temple, had 6 children, and established a successful dental practice in Farmington, NM. Jared and Gwen devoted their lives to the Mormon church for 45+ years, including Jared serving as bishop from 2008-2013, and Gwen serving in multiple callings.

Jared’s faith crisis was triggered in 2015 when he began reading the LDS Gospel Topics Essays. Jared and Gwen experienced a mixed faith marriage for a few years. In April of 2018, while being released from a stake calling, Jared shared with his stake president and one of the counselors details regarding his faith crisis. The stake president immediately took Jared’s temple recommend away, and then released Gwen from her calling and took her temple recommend away a few weeks later. Madison (18) resigned from the church in April, 2019.

After Jared began expressing public support for Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children movement, along with expressing public feelings about the church’s truth claims, Jared was summoned to a disciplinary council. Jared faces excommunication on June 30th, 2019 at 6pm at the Farmington, NM stake center.

I just got done with the podcasts of the Lusks...Impressed with them on many levels. 

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps.  

But if one is convinced of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and seeks to "be about ... Father's business," would not the prospect of one's progeny having placed themselves out the Celestial Kingdom be a disappointment in and of itself?  By having abandoned a number of moral principles that they were taught by their mother and I, as well as the Church, some of my progeny have caused a great deal of unnecessary difficulty in their lives.  If they had merely "left" the church and maintained obedience to some of the other principles they were taught, they would probably have done better in their lives, and while our disappointment would still have been there, it wouldn't have been as deep.

I can’t judge your situation nor would I want to. I don’t automatically think it is wrong to be disappointed in someone. I just know of those who have left the faith not for moral reasons, but because of inability to recognize the spirit. I can’t fault them for that.

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3 hours ago, alter idem said:

I'm really happy that your family has begun to change, that's wonderful and I'm glad that some of them have even recognized that how they treated you before was wrong on their part.  That's great, they NEED to repent and change.  I've seen examples in families who rejected or marginalized their loved ones because they left the church or chose a lifestyle they didn't agree with, personally I was disturbed to see this happen for the damage it causes and in my family, we luckily didn't make those mistakes.  We could have, it was common 20 or 30 years ago.  I often thank heavenly father for helping us to have not made those mistakes and the subsequent blessing of having strong, loving ties and close relationships.  Some I know used the excuse that they were protecting their young impressionable children against the negative influence they thought a 'bad example' in the family would have on trying to teach values and standards, but we weren't willing to sacrifice a loved one out of fear and can say that those fears are unfounded as it never has been a concern in our extended family.  And, it seems to me that it's getting better over time, but it's too bad, you were one of those who suffered.

When I was excommunicated, I knew most of the men in that room.  I had served on the high counsel for many years.  After the court, one of the guys there who I didn't know called me up a few days later and asked if he could have lunch.  I had no hard feelings against the church and still don't.  I totally understand why the court was necessary and why the decision to excommunicate me.  So I easily agreed to meet with him.  A couple of days later we had lunch together. He confided in me that his brother was gay and came out 25 years previously.  His family basically disowned him for 25 years.  Just recently the family started to reconnect with his gay brother.  He told me he regretted what had happened so many years ago. Maybe he was preparing me for what was a very real possibility of what would happen to me.  I guess I should be thankful that it didn't take my family 25 years to put things in a better situation.  I also know my family thought they were doing what the church wanted them to do.  Since then the church has offered counsel that is quite different than the message my family was receiving at the time this all happened.  

Some of my friends thought that I should be angry with the church and angry with my family.  I couldn't be angry with either.  I loved them both.  And I often reminded myself how many years it took me to deal with being gay.  Why would i expect my family to easily understand in a short period of time. I have had an opportunity to talk to several young men who have gone through similar experiences.  I always remind them of that very thing.  How do you expect your family to understand something that took you years to figure out how to deal with.  That perspective seems to help.

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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Perhaps.  

But if one is convinced of the truthfulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and seeks to "be about ... Father's business," would not the prospect of one's progeny having placed themselves out the Celestial Kingdom be a disappointment in and of itself?  By having abandoned a number of moral principles that they were taught by their mother and I, as well as the Church, some of my progeny have caused a great deal of unnecessary difficulty in their lives.  If they had merely "left" the church and maintained obedience to some of the other principles they were taught, they would probably have done better in their lives, and while our disappointment would still have been there, it wouldn't have been as deep.

I personally have this belief that parents are pretty much done raising your children when they are 12 years old.  Teaching moral principles is not the same as having those moral principles internalized.  If the child hasn't decided what principles and morals they want to live by, time usually doesn't change that.  So many parents feel they can start paying attention to the choices their children make in their teen years.  If the child has not adopted the values their parents have taught them by then, it usually never happens.  The older they get, the less likely they are to embrace the values their parents want them to keep. A change in moral values and principles to live by can only come from within at that point.  No parent can push whatever values they want their adult children to adopt.  The more they try, the less likely they are to be successful and usually the more difficult the relationships become.  IMO, it is important to remember that the salvation of your children has nothing to do with you.  It is between themselves and the Savior. 

My father, who is quite elderly, made it his end of life mission to get me back into the Celestial Kingdom.  It only caused incredible tension and for me, a complete lack of any feeling that he actually loved me.  It wasn't until he realized that was not his responsibility that the healing could begin and our relationship could come to a much better place.

This is not a comment on how you have raised your kids.  I know noting of you or your children or how you raised them.  It is just my personal observation and belief.  

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On 6/27/2019 at 5:47 PM, Calm said:

I can’t judge your situation nor would I want to. I don’t automatically think it is wrong to be disappointed in someone. I just know of those who have left the faith not for moral reasons, but because of inability to recognize the spirit. I can’t fault them for that.

Neither can I, exactly.  Neither do I know if their situation precludes them from recognizing the spirit.  But in connection with my own children, why can't I be disappointed and feel sadness about it?  Why this insistence that my disappointment is somehow wrong or misplaced?  Not necessarily from you.  But the impression I get from some here is that I shouldn't feel disappointed.  Kind of "How dare you?" or so it seems. 

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22 hours ago, california boy said:

I personally have this belief that parents are pretty much done raising your children when they are 12 years old.  

I hear what you're saying, but I have evidence in my raising of them that they were still listening to me about certain things well after they were 12.

The other thing is that they are each their own person.  How it goes with one is not how it goes with another.

22 hours ago, california boy said:

Teaching moral principles is not the same as having those moral principles internalized.  

That much is certain!

22 hours ago, california boy said:

If the child hasn't decided what principles and morals they want to live by, time usually doesn't change that.  So many parents feel they can start paying attention to the choices their children make in their teen years.  If the child has not adopted the values their parents have taught them by then, it usually never happens.  The older they get, the less likely they are to embrace the values their parents want them to keep. A change in moral values and principles to live by can only come from within at that point.  No parent can push whatever values they want their adult children to adopt.  The more they try, the less likely they are to be successful and usually the more difficult the relationships become.

Yes.  If one is to be successful in such an attempt, then one must wait for teaching moments -- and even then it's a crapshoot.  So to speak. 

22 hours ago, california boy said:

 IMO, it is important to remember that the salvation of your children has nothing to do with you.  It is between themselves and the Savior. 

Which is actually comforting.  It's not up to me.

22 hours ago, california boy said:

My father, who is quite elderly, made it his end of life mission to get me back into the Celestial Kingdom.  It only caused incredible tension and for me, a complete lack of any feeling that he actually loved me.  It wasn't until he realized that was not his responsibility that the healing could begin and our relationship could come to a much better place.

This is not a comment on how you have raised your kids.  I know noting of you or your children or how you raised them.  It is just my personal observation and belief.  

Your observation and belief seems well grounded, and I would only quibble over specifics, not generalities.  One specific quibble is that, in some cases there may be a window of opportunity where an "intervention" might succeed. Or there may never be such.

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