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HappyJackWagon

What To Do When Loved Ones Leave the Church

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If you're truly wondering if the stories of rejection are real, I'd simply suggest you pay closer attention and speak to more people.

12 minutes ago, Steve-o said:

I don't know what to say about this. I guess denial is alive and well in 2019.

I guess people like making judgments without really reading what I said.  I HAVE LISTENED TO MANY STORIES.  But precious few are first hand accounts.  I've lived a good many years, lived in six states.  I also travel so much that I've spent at least a month or two in about 100 wards.  I have personally known nearly 10,000 people in those wards on a personal level.  And  a tremendous number of them did indeed have people they loved leave the Church.  And I still have many former LDS friends.  But the numbers of people with first hand accounts of the members who remained "shunning" them away from the Church has been very close to zero.  The vast majority still have their family visit them and celebrate holidays.  And they do all they can to be civil.

I have, on the other hand, heard MANY first hand accounts of people who leave who try to point out anti-Mormon literature to persuade the family to leave as well.  I've heard many who have accused them of not loving them enough to leave the Church over gay marriage or whatever.

I didn't just come up with all this on a musing on a lazy afternoon.  Everything I said was from extensive personal experience.

If that's not good enough for you, fine.  You haven't lived my life.  You haven't spoken to the people I've spoken with.  And you'll believe what you'll believe.  But you have no right to say I'm in denial, am ignorant, or lacking in experience based on nothing but the fact that I disagree with you.

Edited by Carborendum
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“I notice this thing that happens.”

”I rarely if ever have seen that.”

 

welcome to mormondialogue.org

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Posted (edited)

We are all lacking in experience - only know our own heart, cannot know all of the circumstances of those around us.  

As a non-believing but still attending "member", I am very careful not to say anything that would upset anyone at church - am respectful of the religious beliefs of everyone, and recognize the benefits of belonging to a community.  To me, church is now similar to attending school - you don't have to agree with the teachers or principle, you can recognize all of the different clicks of people, you can enjoy the friendships there but also appreciate there are other schools that are also wonderful places.  No superiority, no thoughts that it is "The" school, just "A" school, enjoy where you agree, just laugh off where you do not agree, that is life.  

Everyone is on a different path, different experiences - best to choose happiness, be the optimist, be a pacifist, try to see all the good you can see, keep things down to earth - not get riled up by anyone or anything, try to be the level headed "it's not a big deal" kind of person who smooths things out and is not easily fluffed up.  

 

It has taken me a few years to get to this point - for those who are also in mixed-faith families - you can get there.  My spouse gives me his Starbucks gift cards now from work :)  and our marriage is now better than ever.  Our kids are happy - they have a choice in what to believe, with no pressure to be one thing or another - my kids who are still active have told me they are happy I am not.  ;)

 

Edited by changed
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40 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I guess people like making judgments without really reading what I said.  I HAVE LISTENED TO MANY STORIES.  But precious few are first hand accounts.  I've lived a good many years, lived in six states.  I also travel so much that I've spent at least a month or two in about 100 wards.  I have personally known nearly 10,000 people in those wards on a personal level.  And  a tremendous number of them did indeed have people they loved leave the Church.  And I still have many former LDS friends.  But the numbers of people with first hand accounts of the members who remained "shunning" them away from the Church has been very close to zero.  The vast majority still have their family visit them and celebrate holidays.  And they do all they can to be civil.

I have, on the other hand, heard MANY first hand accounts of people who leave who try to point out anti-Mormon literature to persuade the family to leave as well.  I've heard many who have accused them of not loving them enough to leave the Church over gay marriage or whatever.

I didn't just come up with all this on a musing on a lazy afternoon.  Everything I said was from extensive personal experience.

If that's not good enough for you, fine.  You haven't lived my life.  You haven't spoken to the people I've spoken with.  And you'll believe what you'll believe.  But you have no right to say I'm in denial, am ignorant, or lacking in experience based on nothing but the fact that I disagree with you.

I agree with this 100%. I've experienced the same with those that have left the church. I think this is the majority of people's experiences as well. 

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I have, on the other hand, heard MANY first hand accounts of people who leave who try to point out anti-Mormon literature to persuade the family to leave as well.  I've heard many who have accused them of not loving them enough to leave the Church over gay marriage or whatever.

I have found that many times the definition of "anti-Mormon literature" is not based on whether or not it is accurate, but based on whether or not it threatens how the person using the term views the church.  For example I have had close friends and family members tell me that the Joseph Smith Papers Project was "anti-Mormon" or the church essays or even Rough Stone Rolling. So maybe next time you hear one of these accounts you might want to ask the person telling it, if he/she actually read the offered literature and what was "anti-Mormon" about it.

 

Oh, as a side note, don't we need to start calling it "Anti-Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint literature"? 🙄

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51 minutes ago, churchistrue said:

Great article. 

Both sides can do better. This article focuses on the still Mormon side. I think a lot of defenders want to focus on the other side, which is just as real. When you leave, don't be a jerk about it. The people that complain the loudest about how cult-like the Mormon church is because of how impossible they make it to leave, causing all your friends and family to disown you, usually seem like total jerks, and it's not that difficult to guess why they have fractured relationships in their life. 

 

Good point, but at the same time I think its important for the still Mormon side to try and be empathetic towards the person transitioning who in many cases is suffering from significant pain and loss in the process.  I know people who compare the level of angst they experienced to what it felt like to the death of a close loved one or a divorce.  This is not small stuff and many people will experience those difficult stages of grief which include anger.  For someone going through anger, it is crucial that they find trusted people who are safe to talk with in order to process their pain.  Not everyone is mature enough to listen to someone's anger and not take personal offense to it.  That space is where relationships are sometimes harmed, but I hesitate to place the blame on either party. 

The reality of the situation is that the tradition of Mormonism, going way back, has created this mess.  All the stories about apostates over the years and the black and white true or false dichotomy has created an environment for significant conflict on this issue.  

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20 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

My youngest daughter, is often very angry with the Church. She is as most here know Gay, and has serious issues with the Church. But, she will not do as others tell her she should do, and resign her membership. When she is sick, or frightened, and as angry as she gets at me at times, she will ask for a blessing, something her wife does not understand. When her wife’s Mother was dying, she asked me to come to the hospital and give her Mother-in-law a blessing of comfort to know what to do. Her family wanted her to continue her fight against cancer, but she did not want too. In reality, my daughter wanted all the family there to hear the blessing, and by so doing respect her dying wish, and it worked. Very often her wife and friends, tell her she should not have contact with her family, and me above all as they see the very embodiment of the Church. 

Now, why do I say this? Often people who are active in the Church, see inactivity as leaving. We even have members of the board who have left the Church, in every way, and have returned, re-baptized, reconfirmed, and Temple blessings restored. My daughter-in-law’s Father did the same, sadly he died in a horrible accident, after having returned, and had all these blessings restored that I listed. What makes this, both wonderful and terrible, is that he died just two months before “our” granddaughter arrived, something he was so looking forward too, but he had his family sealed to him again a few months before his death. So, both his daughter, and my daughter-in-law, and that granddaughter, along with even more (as he had five children), will be his in the eternities. I am a firm believer in this, and my faith, that a loving God allows has his eye upon us all, something I think we too often forget. If we are, are were believers, and if those who remain continue to pray in faith, he “our Father”, will do all he can to restore those we love. But, if we act in anger, or recoil at family gatherings, Sunday dinners, or just the day to day encounters with them, we will only drive them further away. Thus making the work of God more difficult, and bringing judgement upon our own heads.  

 

I think many who leave still hold onto many of the good things in the church - just because someone leaves does not mean they disagree with all of it - they might still believe blessings are real, still believe in God, still believe in the spirit etc.  Another thing to remember is everyone who leaves was once a member - they joined the church because they liked quite a lot of it.  Many were once TBM's - if those who leave can remember who they once were and why they joined in the first place, there can be less tension between everyone.  

I think many members would stay if there were more room to disagree on a few issues.  It is sad when one issue - like LGBT etc.  would cause someone to leave what otherwise they agree with.  

 

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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So much to respond to...

First, I'm glad your relationships never suffered. That is good to hear.

If you're truly wondering if the stories of rejection are real, I'd simply suggest you pay closer attention and speak to more people. It blows my mind that you think this is a small issue that is being blown out of proportion. I understand that when things don't affect us personally it's hard to recognize the depth of the issue but this issue is big enough I think it's pretty easy to find MANY people willing to share their stories. If you choose to disbelieve the stories, then that's up to you.

I think you're right that there is a high level of anxiety and fear on the side of the person leaving the church or experiencing faith crisis. Do people often fear the worst? Sure. They fear losing relationships. They fear being ostracized. They fear being pitied. They fear being a disappointment to others. So even if you believe you are being openly loving and accepting (and maybe you are) those who leave know you are disappointed in them. They suspect you are judging them. Those fears, real and imagined do impact relationships.

You've made a couple of comments that suggest  "I have no idea why" it's a big deal to people when they leave the church. Again, I think it would be beneficial to listen to or read stories about why it is a big deal. You seem to have a very cavalier attitude about an issue that is extremely difficult for many people, on both sides of the issue. You are coming across to me as lacking empathy as one who is emotionally detached from the pain of others. I think that's unfortunate. I can't tell if you just don't care or if you're in denial that this issue is even a real issue.

Personally, I could tell you a multitude of stories that I experienced ( and my immediate family) but I doubt you'd care, or you wouldn't believe them anyway. I suspect that sometimes people "imagine being rejected" but I also believe strongly that people ARE rejected. It hurts. And it doesn't much matter if one says they love me whilst rejecting me.

I do think a lot of the problems are exacerbated by "really bad" communication. That's why an article like this can be helpful. It can help people on both sides understand the fear and angst of the others. But someone has to care enough to try to understand and experience empathy.

I don't think there is an "epidemic of hate". That is way overstating things. One might even say you are creating a straw man. Most of the time it is misunderstanding, miscommunication and general discomfort about not knowing how to interact with people after a significant change.

If you don't see this as a problem, then you're simply not paying attention.

Maybe if he were on the other side he'd see the problem, haha! I'm on the other side with my sister who is all in and has pulled back from me quite a bit. I've told her little of what I've found disturbing about the church. I mentioned JS's polygamy as being what started it. She's yet to discuss why or what I found disturbing about it. She won't say a word, other than maybe Satan is working on me. Why is it that this is the same over and over with those that struggle over church history etc. that believing members won't ask what the issues are? It seems they are afraid. But then on this board not at all. And currently my ministering people, he's a CES teacher at LDS Business College, knows the warts and wants me to discuss them, but I don't usually, because I have this board. But my sister won't go near the subject. I'm just a huge disappointment to her. She and I were the only ones in our family of six children that stayed active with temple recommends, so now that I'm not then it's surely hard on her. But hard for me to lose my sister over it as well. 

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32 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

My youngest daughter, is often very angry with the Church. She is as most here know Gay, and has serious issues with the Church. But, she will not do as others tell her she should do, and resign her membership. When she is sick, or frightened, and as angry as she gets at me at times, she will ask for a blessing, something her wife does not understand. When her wife’s Mother was dying, she asked me to come to the hospital and give her Mother-in-law a blessing of comfort to know what to do. Her family wanted her to continue her fight against cancer, but she did not want too. In reality, my daughter wanted all the family there to hear the blessing, and by so doing respect her dying wish, and it worked. Very often her wife and friends, tell her she should not have contact with her family, and me above all as they see the very embodiment of the Church. 

Now, why do I say this? Often people who are active in the Church, see inactivity as leaving. We even have members of the board who have left the Church, in every way, and have returned, re-baptized, reconfirmed, and Temple blessings restored. My daughter-in-law’s Father did the same, sadly he died in a horrible accident, after having returned, and had all these blessings restored that I listed. What makes this, both wonderful and terrible, is that he died just two months before “our” granddaughter arrived, something he was so looking forward too, but he had his family sealed to him again a few months before his death. So, both his daughter, and my daughter-in-law, and that granddaughter, along with even more (as he had five children), will be his in the eternities. I am a firm believer in this, and my faith, that a loving God allows has his eye upon us all, something I think we too often forget. If we are, are were believers, and if those who remain continue to pray in faith, he “our Father”, will do all he can to restore those we love. But, if we act in anger, or recoil at family gatherings, Sunday dinners, or just the day to day encounters with them, we will only drive them further away. Thus making the work of God more difficult, and bringing judgement upon our own heads.  

One of the interesting trends in the studies I've seen that show a large number people leaving organized religion especially in the younger generations, is that they aren't necessarily turning into atheists.  Many of them still have a sense of spirituality and some are even turning to pseudoscience and other areas that promote a belief in the supernatural.  

I believe this is because humans have evolved to have religious experiences in a broad sense, and no matter how much education around how our brains work, people still have experiences that they often can't explain and for many of them, they don't want to explain these things.  The experiences of feeling love and connection and a sense of awe and inspiration are the stuff that religious experience is made of and the spice of life.  

I personally expect to continue to have religious experiences, even though I no longer believe there is anything supernatural happening and I'm pretty agnostic on the idea of deity.  I still also very much appreciate my relationship to Mormonism and want to continue that relationship, not because I believe in an afterlife or the literal efficacy of any of the authoritative claims, but because I like how Mormonism helps be connect to community and family and through that process I think I learn to be a better person.  

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2 hours ago, changed said:

I have left the church belief-wise, am in a mixed faith relationship, so still attend for family.  Yes, it comes down to a loss in trust, and it was a very difficult transition through which I did lose many previous acquaintances but also gained others.  

As an example of the magnitude, in my area we have a closed fb group of those struggling with the church, and  who have left.  There are over 100 members in it, with meetups at bars and coffee shops etc.  When I first entered this arena I had no idea how many people I knew were struggling.  Now that I am in that circle - and know who is who - it is astonishing.  

It is such a sensitive and emotionally charged thing - marriages are on the line in some cases, people with callings who are having faith crisis while in their calling and cannot admit it in front of the general population etc. that most do not realize the magnitude of it.   Until you are one of them you will not be let into the circle, then the entire rainbow of it all comes into view.  

Want into the circle of struggles? Leave the 99 and all that?  Want to know why so many members in your ward are inactive or stopped attending? Stop wearing g's, and agree to have coffee with one.  It's going to take more than words to re-gain trust...

I'm thinking that I've misunderstood what you are saying so I wanted to clarify.  Are you saying that in order to leave the 99 and seek after the one that is lost, a person needs to stop wearing their garments and have a cup of coffee with that person?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Maybe if he were on the other side he'd see the problem, haha! I'm on the other side with my sister who is all in and has pulled back from me quite a bit. I've told her little of what I've found disturbing about the church. I mentioned JS's polygamy as being what started it. She's yet to discuss why or what I found disturbing about it. She won't say a word, other than maybe Satan is working on me. Why is it that this is the same over and over with those that struggle over church history etc. that believing members won't ask what the issues are? It seems they are afraid. But then on this board not at all. And currently my ministering people, he's a CES teacher at LDS Business College, knows the warts and wants me to discuss them, but I don't usually, because I have this board. But my sister won't go near the subject. I'm just a huge disappointment to her. She and I were the only ones in our family of six children that stayed active with temple recommends, so now that I'm not then it's surely hard on her. But hard for me to lose my sister over it as well. 

I'll tell you why I don't discuss things with my daughter-in-law. She is incredibly angry at the church. She quotes things and takes them completely out of context or  says they say things they very much don't.  On her facebook she rants and raves. 

My relationship with my son is somewhat precarious. There have always been things that haven't been great between us since he was fairly young. So many times he refused to communicate with us about what we said and totally misunderstood what those things were.

Those two cling to each other. I'm grateful they try to cleave together. However, if I try to discuss the gospel with my DIL, even if I just ask questions to understand better and make no statements, I have no doubts at all that some of my questions will be misunderstood as accusatory and it will eventually pull my son further away from me than he already has after all of the work I have done to just "love him' as God as directed me.

You bet I'm afraid. Knowing my son and how often he totally has read people wrong all his life and how much communication he misses ALL the time I have little doubt that he thinks I can't handle "the truth" and little doubt that a discussion with DIL will be seen, no matter how I present myself, as an attack on her. 

I'm absolutely afraid to have those discussions with her. I don't want to lose my son in the process. Little by little I am gaining his trust* back and maybe someday those discussions can take place sometime, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

*His mistrust was not lost over the church.

Edited by Rain
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31 minutes ago, changed said:

I think many members would stay if there were more room to disagree on a few issues.  It is sad when one issue - like LGBT etc.  would cause someone to leave what otherwise they agree with.  

Yes, absolutely.  If the culture can shift enough to not only tolerate, but be inclusive of differing perspectives and look for the good in everyone, it will go a long way to helping people feel welcome.  I have been able to do this in my ward with a surprising level of success, yet I've also learned with time to not be as bothered or sensitive about people making naive statements that are offensive or less inclusive. 

I think this will take time and leadership from the top to get stronger traction on this topic, but I think it is inevitable as more people leave the faith, unless you force your members to exclude and shun those people, they will naturally become less judgmental towards friends and family who've left, which really changes both parties in that process.  

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6 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'll tell you why I don't discuss things with my daughter-in-law. She is incredibly angry at the church. She quotes things and takes them completely out of context or  says they say things they very much don't.  On her facebook she rants and raves. 

My relationship with my son is somewhat precarious. There have always been things that haven been between us since he was fairly young. So many times he refused to communicate with us about what we said and totally misunderstood what those things were.

Those two cling to each other. I'm grateful they try to cleave together. However, if I try to discuss the gospel with my DIL, even if I just ask questions to understand better and make no statements, I have no doubts at all that some of my questions will be misunderstood as accusatory and it will eventually pull my son further away from me than he already has after all of the work I have done to just "love him' as God as directed me.

You bet I'm afraid. Knowing my son and how often he totally he has read people wrong all his life and how much communication he misses ALL the time I have little doubt that he thinks I can't handle "the truth" and little doubt that a discussion with DIL will be seen, no matter how I present myself, as an attack on her. 

I'm absolutely afraid to have those discussions with her. I don't want to lose my son in the process. Little by little I am gaining his trust* back and maybe someday those discussions can take place sometime, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

*For what it is worth his trust was not lost over the church.

Rain, it will sound strange but I have the same problem with my son. He still thinks I'm pretty faithful to the church. Even though I don't go to church anymore. I was that all in and he remembers how much, so he's still slow to realize. Around him I will come up with all kinds of good things the church does, even with my crisis of not believing anymore. I guess he worries I'll go back. He's the youngest and he and I aren't as close, I blame the time I spent on Mormonism as far as research and discussion boards that took me away from him. My fault for doing this, but he hates the church with compassion. So I'm scared to talk with him and argue.

The lack of communication and closeness is the hardest part for me with my sister. Just the thought of her asking about what I've been through, or wanting to go for a walk or go to lunch, is all I'd like. She is really busy with her life but I wish she'd want to carve out just a few minutes with me. She's older, and if I had a little sister, I'd be in her life, I know I would. So it hurts. 

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10 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'll tell you why I don't discuss things with my daughter-in-law. She is incredibly angry at the church. She quotes things and takes them completely out of context or  says they say things they very much don't.  On her facebook she rants and raves. 

My relationship with my son is somewhat precarious. There have always been things that haven been between us since he was fairly young. So many times he refused to communicate with us about what we said and totally misunderstood what those things were.

Those two cling to each other. I'm grateful they try to cleave together. However, if I try to discuss the gospel with my DIL, even if I just ask questions to understand better and make no statements, I have no doubts at all that some of my questions will be misunderstood as accusatory and it will eventually pull my son further away from me than he already has after all of the work I have done to just "love him' as God as directed me.

You bet I'm afraid. Knowing my son and how often he totally he has read people wrong all his life and how much communication he misses ALL the time I have little doubt that he thinks I can't handle "the truth" and little doubt that a discussion with DIL will be seen, no matter how I present myself, as an attack on her. 

I'm absolutely afraid to have those discussions with her. I don't want to lose my son in the process. Little by little I am gaining his trust* back and maybe someday those discussions can take place sometime, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

*For what it is worth his trust was not lost over the church.

Thanks for sharing this perspective.  It can be extremely hard for both sides and you're demonstrating just how challenging this is.  My parents have also had a very hard time with my faith transition, my Mom in particular who just doesn't understand because she's quite a black and white thinker on the church's truth claims.  And I'm fine with that and I've tried to be as respectful as possible to their position, very rarely even sharing any details about what has caused my shift of belief out of a respect for them.

However, in hind sight, I worry sometimes that I've shielded them too much, and that has caused them to just imagine what perspectives I might hold, rather than actually have insight into what I believe.  It has definitely made religion a thorny minefield to be navigated and both sides trying to avoid talking about religious things.  I feel a sense of loss on that front.  I wish I could just talk about what I believe now, and not bring up all the reasons why my faith has changed.  That is the part that I miss, sharing what gives me hope and faith about the future.  I'm a positive person, and I don't like dwelling in the past, I want to move forward.  I've found ways to share positive perspectives at church, much more successfully than I've been able to do the same with my parents.  Its still a work in progress...

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43 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm thinking that I've misunderstood what you are saying so I wanted to clarify.  Are you saying that in order to leave the 99 and seek after the one that is lost, a person needs to stop wearing their garments and have a cup of coffee with that person?

I think it's tongue in cheek. The way I read that is that once you seem to be a safe person, then people will open up. Coffee and G's are outward signs many might look for to know that someone is likeminded or has similar experiences. We all generally look to be a part of groups of people like us. If you're not in the group it's sometimes easy to not even recognize that the group exists.

I was recently having a conversation with a member of the ward who said something like "We don't have any gay people in the ward." This person literally thought there weren't any gay people in our ward even though a couple are pretty open about it. Personally I know of 6 (mostly youth). This person simply wasn't aware of a group he wasn't a part of. That's pretty normal, but also silly to assume that just because he wasn't aware, the group didn't exist. I think it's the same for people who struggle with belief in the church. Once I became a "safe" person for people to confide in about that topic I too was shocked by how many people came out of the woodwork.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I'm thinking that I've misunderstood what you are saying so I wanted to clarify.  Are you saying that in order to leave the 99 and seek after the one that is lost, a person needs to stop wearing their garments and have a cup of coffee with that person?

 

Symbolic (although it would work for me.)  Walk a mile in their shoes.  If you cannot admit your own doubts, are not openly "imperfect",  do not show you are able to think and act for yourself outside the confines of the church - then most others will not be open with you either.  There are some in the church -  at least for me, who feel like those lyrics "they say jump, and you say how high?" kind of folks in which case it feels as if you are not talking to an individual person, but rather to an organization - kind of a wall there...   If I find someone who watches R-rated movies, supports LGBT, supports Sam Young, or is in some other way "rebellious" to the institution - who shows they are capable of acting and thinking for themselves outside the confines of what they have been told, that feels like a more authentic conversation could be initiated - that you would be talking to a person rather than a puppet.  

It has to be more than just words though - more than someone saying "I'm open, I'm authentic, I'm not a sheeple" - they have to actually do something - like drink coffee - or participate in a protest or something, to show they really are able to think critically for themselves and act for themselves.  It is easy to have polite superficial conversations with people... but if a real conversation is desired - vulnerable etc.  it takes being vulnerable to get back something real, authentic, and vulnerable.  

 

Communities where everyone is required to think and talk and act the same - it is not real.  The strange thing - those who do what they can to "fit-in" will find themselves emotionally alone and disconnected because they are not allowed to share themselves.  Isolation is only broken through vulnerability - not through "fitting in".  

Edited by changed
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