Evidences of the Book of Mormon: Old World Geography

[JAHS]

10 minutes ago, Gervin said:

They learn the secret of the brass ball back in Chapter 16.  Are you saying they knew how the ball worked and they nevertheless "wandered" for 8 years?  I mean, really - if they were so unfaithful then why were they chosen to build a ship, navigate a ship, land a ship, settle a new world, etc.. - stuff they could only do by faith?

And they were not afflicted with hunger and thirst:

3 And thus we see that the commandments of God must be fulfilled. And if it so be that the children of men keep the commandments of God he doth nourish them, and strengthen them, and provide means whereby they can accomplish the thing which he has commanded them; wherefore, he did provide means for us while we did sojourn in the wilderness.

I'm still curious as to how long you think it took for them to travel from Nahom to Bountiful.

This is not a new thing. Moses and the so-called chosen people of God wandered for 40 years because of their lack of faith  before they were allowed to reach the land of promise.  

They were not afflicted with hunger and thirst so long as they obeyed the commandments. When they didn't they suffered and wandered around without direction.
All we know is that it took them at least 8 years or more to get to Bountiful from Jerusalem. Other than that there are no specific references to time. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Gervin said:

Are you saying they knew how the ball worked and they nevertheless "wandered" for 8 years?  I mean, really - if they were so unfaithful then why were they chosen to build a ship, navigate a ship, land a ship, settle a new world, etc.. - stuff they could only do by faith?

Could have been reasons why God had them delay.  Perhaps there was conflict or hardships like droughts in areas they were moving into that he wanted resolved before they got there.  Perhaps there was a useful weather pattern in the future which would make their trip work out the way needed.  Perhaps he wanted Nephi old enough to take a more active leadership role as his father aged once they had reached their destination so Lamanite and Lemuel wouldn't be so influential.

[Ryan Dahle]

Alma 37

41 Nevertheless, because those miracles were worked by small means it did show unto them marvelous works. They were slothful, and forgot to exercise their faith and diligence and then those marvelous works ceased, and they did not progress in their journey;

42 Therefore, they tarried in the wilderness, or did not travel a direct course, and were afflicted with hunger and thirst, because of their transgressions.

[Rajah Manchou]

On 7/17/2019 at 4:51 PM, Islamormoyid said:

relationship between Cochin Jews+St. Thomas Christians with the Lehite populations in their outward expansion north into Kamara and east into what became Zhenla.  Can you expand upon that relationship?  Heck...feel free to boundlessly speculate about that relationship!

Same group in my opinion. According to Claudius Buchanan in 1807, the Black Jews of India informed him of their brothers in colonies further east. The earliest accounts of India mention large boats capable of holding hundreds of people moving between Rahma/Zhenla and Camara as early as the 1st century AD.

23 hours ago, blarsen said:

As I recall, Hugh Nibley made a connection between the Mandeans living in the southern Iraq marsh provinces with 'Rekhabite' Jews who also fled Jerusalem around the time of the Lehiite out-migration.

Hugh Nibley identifies the Lehites as Rechabites. Extant accounts of the Rechabites inform us that they were led God from Jerusalem to an island in the sea around 600 BC. According to Vladimir Braginsky, the apocryphal accounts of the Rechabites places them in Nusantara, or the Malay Peninsula.

The internal geography of the Book of Mormon lines up with the geography and archeology of the Malay Peninsula.

The Book of Mormon = an account of the Israelites of India, or the Rechabites.

[blarsen]

35 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Same group in my opinion. According to Claudius Buchanan in 1807, the Black Jews of India informed him of their brothers in colonies further east. The earliest accounts of India mention large boats capable of holding hundreds of people moving between Rahma/Zhenla and Camara as early as the 1st century AD.

Hugh Nibley identifies the Lehites as Rechabites. Extant accounts of the Rechabites inform us that they were led God from Jerusalem to an island in the sea around 600 BC. According to Vladimir Braginsky, the apocryphal accounts of the Rechabites places them in Nusantara, or the Malay Peninsula.

The internal geography of the Book of Mormon lines up with the geography and archeology of the Malay Peninsula.

The Book of Mormon = an account of the Israelites of India, or the Rechabites.

But again, and as I recall, Nibley also identified the Mandeans as being in a class he called, Rechabites . . . . a group separate from the Lehite group.  And I think he coined the term after the actual Rechabites mentioned in the OT.  He has even quoted from some of the Mandean scriptures, which are quite remarkable.  I would have to dig it out of his books to give you an exact source.  But it's there . . . even if I've conflated the topic somewhat.

Edited July 19, 2019 by blarsen

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, blarsen said:

But again, and as I recall, Nibley also identified the Mandeans as being in a class he called, Rechabites . . . . a group separate from the Lehite group.  And I think he coined the term after the actual Rechabites mentioned in the OT.  He has even quoted from some of the Mandean scriptures, which are quite remarkable.  I would have to dig it out of his books to give you an exact source.  But it's there . . . even if I've conflated the topic somewhat.

This is the passage from Nibley on the Timely and the Timeless:

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls we learn of the peculiar way of life of the sectaries of the desert, whose Rekhabite tradition goes back to Lehi’s day and long before, and survives long after, as is very apparent from the 2nd Sura of the Qur’an. The people of Lehi were rooted in this tradition. When John Welch was studying at Duke University years ago, he was struck by the strong resemblance between the story of Lehi and the writing of Zosimus, a Greek of the third century AD. What would a Greek know about Lehi almost a thousand years after? Zosimus was looking for the model society of the saints, and he attempted to find it in the desert among the Rekhabites—that is the common tradition; I pointed out long ago that Lehi was in the proper sense a Rekhabite and certainly acquainted with the pious sectaries of Jeremiah 30. The writing of Zosimus shows that we are dealing with a pervasive and persistent pattern."

Here, Nibley refers to the Narrative of Zosimus, a ~3rd century AD account of a Greek hermit who traveled through the desert and then crossed the great sea to India/Burma (the Land of the Rahmans) to meet the Rechabites/Rahmans. The simple response to the question of Book of Mormon historicity is that the Book of Mormon = an account of the Israelites of India, known as the Rechabites.

Edited July 19, 2019 by Rajah Manchou

[clarkgoble]

12 hours ago, JAHS said:

This is not a new thing. Moses and the so-called chosen people of God wandered for 40 years because of their lack of faith  before they were allowed to reach the land of promise.  

They were not afflicted with hunger and thirst so long as they obeyed the commandments. When they didn't they suffered and wandered around without direction.
All we know is that it took them at least 8 years or more to get to Bountiful from Jerusalem. Other than that there are no specific references to time. 

Worth noting that's only a few days travel if they were going direct.

[blarsen]

8 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This is the passage from Nibley on the Timely and the Timeless:

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls we learn of the peculiar way of life of the sectaries of the desert, whose Rekhabite tradition goes back to Lehi’s day and long before, and survives long after, as is very apparent from the 2nd Sura of the Qur’an. The people of Lehi were rooted in this tradition. When John Welch was studying at Duke University years ago, he was struck by the strong resemblance between the story of Lehi and the writing of Zosimus, a Greek of the third century AD. What would a Greek know about Lehi almost a thousand years after? Zosimus was looking for the model society of the saints, and he attempted to find it in the desert among the Rekhabites—that is the common tradition; I pointed out long ago that Lehi was in the proper sense a Rekhabite and certainly acquainted with the pious sectaries of Jeremiah 30. The writing of Zosimus shows that we are dealing with a pervasive and persistent pattern."

Here, Nibley refers to the Narrative of Zosimus, a ~3rd century AD account of a Greek hermit who traveled through the desert and then crossed the great sea to India/Burma (the Land of the Rahmans) to meet the Rechabites/Rahmans. The simple response to the question of Book of Mormon historicity is that the Book of Mormon = an account of the Israelites of India, known as the Rechabites.

I can see I'll have to dig up Nibley's quotes regarding the Mandeans, and as I recall, his associating them with his Rekhabite concept . . . . as time permits.

[Burnside]

18 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

This is the passage from Nibley on the Timely and the Timeless:

"In the Dead Sea Scrolls we learn of the peculiar way of life of the sectaries of the desert, whose Rekhabite tradition goes back to Lehi’s day and long before, and survives long after, as is very apparent from the 2nd Sura of the Qur’an. The people of Lehi were rooted in this tradition. When John Welch was studying at Duke University years ago, he was struck by the strong resemblance between the story of Lehi and the writing of Zosimus, a Greek of the third century AD. What would a Greek know about Lehi almost a thousand years after? Zosimus was looking for the model society of the saints, and he attempted to find it in the desert among the Rekhabites—that is the common tradition; I pointed out long ago that Lehi was in the proper sense a Rekhabite and certainly acquainted with the pious sectaries of Jeremiah 30. The writing of Zosimus shows that we are dealing with a pervasive and persistent pattern."

Here, Nibley refers to the Narrative of Zosimus, a ~3rd century AD account of a Greek hermit who traveled through the desert and then crossed the great sea to India/Burma (the Land of the Rahmans) to meet the Rechabites/Rahmans. The simple response to the question of Book of Mormon historicity is that the Book of Mormon = an account of the Israelites of India, known as the Rechabites.

Was traveling in the desert that uncommon? No, especially since it separated civilizations.

So your theory, Nibley’s and Jack Welch’s are false.

The Prophet Mormon stated know one knew that Lehi’s group left Jerusalem:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/5.20?lang=eng&clang=eng#p19

20 I am Mormon, and a pure ^adescendant of Lehi. I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem, (and ^bno one knew it save it were himself and those whom he brought out of that land) and that he hath given me and my people so much knowledge unto the salvation of our souls.

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Burnside

[Rajah Manchou]

23 minutes ago, Burnside said:

Was traveling in the desert that uncommon? 

I don't think it was uncommon at all. But help me out, did the Lehites encounter any others during the eight years they were traveling through the desert?

You seem to be arguing (1) that wandering around in the desert was all too common, and then in the next breath arguing that (2) there was nobody else in the desert.

Quote

The Prophet Mormon stated know one knew that Lehi’s group left Jerusalem:

According to the Book of Mormon, there were other migrations to the land, the Jaredites and the people of Zarahemla, for example. 
The Narrative of Zosimus suggests that people from the Old World did know of a people in a land that had been set apart for a group of Israelites.

[blarsen]

On 7/19/2019 at 12:07 PM, blarsen said:

I can see I'll have to dig up Nibley's quotes regarding the Mandeans, and as I recall, his associating them with his Rekhabite concept . . . . as time permits.

Here is one, from The World and the Prophets, page 233:  "Some of the earliest Christian sects, like the Mandeans, thought of themselves as wanderers whose search for paradise began the day Adam was put out of Eden . . . In this, they seem to be following the teaching and example of ancient Jewish sects, such as the Rekhabites . . . "

So I conflated the Mandeans w/a Jewish sect coming out of Jerusalem around the time of the Lehites.  However, I still recall Nibley saying they came out of Judea, ending up in the Marsh provinces of present day southern Iraq.  He also quoted quite a bit from their scriptures/writings.  Just can't find the reference.