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Another Bishop and Sexual Misconduct

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This absolutely does not match my personal experience. I still have former Young Men who speak with gratitude for every single interaction they were blessed to have with all three members of our bishopric ... and amazingly, they include me as both Young Men president and then as bishopric counsellor for Young Men. One of them is a few metres away from me right now; we're work colleagues. Last week he tearfully thanked me for investing in him one-on-one over the course of many difficult years. Another one has been texting me off and on over the course of the day to update me on how he's been going at university. His last year of school, he was at the end of my dining table 4-5 hours every evening working on assignments, often with me sitting next to him giving help.

Are you sure you aren't projecting your personal dread onto the girls you work with?

Yes.  I’m only relating what I’ve observed.  I absolutely don’t feel dread when I have my own interviews 😊

Calm expressed it well above (and bsjkki too).

I’m glad so many boys in your ward have great relationships with you.  That’s awesome to hear!

Edited by JulieM
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14 hours ago, Danzo said:

It may get that way, but I feel more will be lost than gained. 

Not if members can still set up their own appointment with a Bishopric member.  I was speaking about the set, regular (pretty much mandatory) interviews for youth.  I think if one initiates a desire to speak to their leader, it's different and may even be legally different.  That would be interesting to know.  I'd think it's similar to a confessional, etc. at that point rather than the adult male initiating and inviting.  But then again, it might not be any different?

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I doubt it is a young women thing only.  As a young man, I hated the yearly interviews.  They were awkward and I'd rather they get finished as soon as possible.  I'm still that way.  I don't like having 1 on 1 meetings with anyone and this includes doctors, school teachers/councilors, managers, etc.

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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

What a question. I’m glad you have had positive experiences with local leadership. That was my experience...until it wasn’t. Teen girls do not often develop friendships with adult men... it’s not a thing that is encouraged in our society. Why wouldn’t being alone answering questions from an adult man make a young woman uncomfortable? 

That's a tautology.  And that's what I was getting at with Juliann.  If there is genuine dread, somebody is encouraging or inculcating it.

The only way I can think to address the claimed dread, whatever its source, is through familiarity and a debunking of what ought to be the false aura of "otherness" and "danger" in meeting with adult leaders.

My idiot mother always made out that meeting with the bishop was a thing of dread, serious, sweat-and-shakes-inducing dread.  My father was a non-player, being too occupied elsewhere.  At some point I began looking at it differently, but, slow learner that I am, I was probably in my '40s-'50s before I really understood that the guy across the desk was me with a different job.  Nothing wrong with kids learning that upon reaching that 12-year (11 now) milestone.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, USU78 said:

That's a tautology.  And that's what I was getting at with Juliann.  If there is genuine dread, somebody is encouraging or inculcating it.

This just isn't true.  Do you work with youth?

Julie has expressed what she meant by using the word dread:  ("Dread can mean apprehension or nervousness.  That’s how I used it here.")

And, that is very accurate in describing how at least some of the youth feel about the one on one interviews with the Bishop.  I'm not sure why you're having such an issue with this as I see it as being very normal.  Even some adults feel apprehension and nervousness (without anyone "encouraging or inculcating it").  

When working with youth, you get a mix of personalities and emotions and so on.  They are not all going to be thrilled and excited about anything.... including these interviews.  Once again, that's normal and there's nothing wrong or sinister going on here.

Edited by ALarson
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14 minutes ago, USU78 said:

that's what I was getting at with Juliann. 

Juliann isn’t in the conversation. 

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4 minutes ago, ALarson said:

This just isn't true.  Do you work with youth?

Julie has expressed what she meant by using the word dread:  ("Dread can mean apprehension or nervousness.  That’s how I used it here.")

And, that is very accurate in describing how at least some of the youth feel about the one on one interviews with the Bishop.  I'm not sure why you're having such an issue with this as I see it as being very normal.  Even some adults feel apprehension and nervousness (without anyone "encouraging or inculcating it").  

When working with youth, you get a mix of personalities and emotions and so on.  They are not all going to be thrilled and excited about anything.... including these interviews.  Once again, that's normal and there's nothing wrong or sinister going on here.

Well, I actually experienced honest-to-goodness dread, and it came partly, I suppose, from my father, but more from my mother.  He was large and strange and monstrous and "other."  But that's not reality in the hearts of everybody involved, is it?  Increased familiarity, one-on-one communication, learning to look past preconceptions inculcating whatever form of dread is present in the younger person, is a good thing.  And if somebody who's 11 is now being seen as sufficiently accountable to be acting as proxy in our esoteric temple rites, he/she is accountable to the person for whom the proxy stands in the temple, to G-d, as well as to the ward community from which the proxy comes.  The Bishop is the representative both of G-d and the community in this transaction.

It seems like fear is overcoming every other consideration when it comes to one-on-one accountability sessions with the Bishop.  Since we agree youth are apprehensive especially early on during these annual sessions, why add to their apprehension because of our own dread?  From a numbers game perspective, the occurrences of abuse behind closed doors are still vanishingly low.  They just seem high because of press' "bleeds it leeds" coverage and our tendency to discuss such things across the back fence.

Perhaps letting the light in between parent/child, Bishop/youth, adult/adult dries up the fear.

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Juliann isn’t in the conversation. 

True.  JulieM.  Thanks!

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Well, I actually experienced honest-to-goodness dread, and it came partly, I suppose, from my father, but more from my mother.  He was large and strange and monstrous and "other."  But that's not reality in the hearts of everybody involved, is it?  Increased familiarity, one-on-one communication, learning to look past preconceptions inculcating whatever form of dread is present in the younger person, is a good thing.  And if somebody who's 11 is now being seen as sufficiently accountable to be acting as proxy in our esoteric temple rites, he/she is accountable to the person for whom the proxy stands in the temple, to G-d, as well as to the ward community from which the proxy comes.  The Bishop is the representative both of G-d and the community in this transaction.

It seems like fear is overcoming every other consideration when it comes to one-on-one accountability sessions with the Bishop.  Since we agree youth are apprehensive especially early on during these annual sessions, why add to their apprehension because of our own dread? 

Who has posted that they are doing this with the youth?   

I think you are making an unfair accusation here from what I've read.

Edited by ALarson
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Who has posted that they are doing this with the youth?   

I think you are making an unfair accusation here from what I've read.

I'm not saying anybody's doing it intentionally, but by indulging the fear of sexual misconduct, talking of putting 3rd parties in the middle of a one-on-one accountability transaction where youth is now faced with confessing (or not confessing) to a crowd rather than a person, are we not adding to rather than alleviating the dread?  "Who has had masturbatory experiences while acting out sexual fantasies?" asks teacher.  No hands go up.  All eyes are on the back heads of the persons ahead of us or on fingernails or the floor.  Why all this discussion of making a private conversation more public?

Edited by USU78

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30 minutes ago, USU78 said:

If there is genuine dread, somebody is encouraging or inculcating it.

 

Not necessarily. All one has to do is observe toddlers to understand that the natural state varies a great deal among children, some are naturally apprehensive of those they are not intimate with, others are comfortable with total strangers. 

So in some it is the state of being comfortable with bishops that must be encouraged, for others to experience dread someone else has imposed their dread on them. 

But my observing of kids is that their view of authority figures who are in judgment/evaluation mode, whether teacher, Bishop, or even a parent tend to fall towards the apprehension side of things.  Worthiness interviews are evaluations and tests make kids nervous generally speaking. 

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not necessarily. All one has to do is observe toddlers to understand that the natural state varies a great deal among children, some are naturally apprehensive of those they are not intimate with, others are comfortable with total strangers. 

So in some it is the state of being comfortable with bishops that must be encouraged, for others to experience dread someone else has imposed their dread on them. 

But my observing of kids is that their view of authority figures who are in judgment/evaluation mode, whether teacher, Bishop, or even a parent tend to fall towards the apprehension side of things.  Worthiness interviews are evaluations and tests make kids nervous generally speaking. 

I was differentiating between the sweat-inducing "genuine" dread and the one that JulieM was referring to.  So I don't necessarily disagree much with what anybody's saying, I just have this apprehension of my own of what appears to be a knee-jerk "change the last thousand years of developing confidential confessional rights of the penitent" because of unfamiliarity with why things are done as they're done.

That truly evil people are predating others is no reason to cut down every hedgerow in England.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm not saying anybody's doing it intentionally, but by indulging the fear of sexual misconduct, talking of putting 3rd parties in the middle of a one-on-one accountability transaction where youth is now faced with confessing (or not confessing) to a crowd rather than a person, are we not adding to rather than alleviating the dread?  

A "crowd"?  

Quote

 

crowd

noun

1.

a large number of people gathered together in a disorganized or unruly way.

 

We are not talking about inviting a "crowd" into the room....

I think you are letting your own emotions exaggerate what is taking place.  Do you not support the church leaders allowing a youth to invite a parent or youth leader to their interviews?  They must have felt there was wisdom in now offering this option and I support them in this.

How do you feel about the two deep policy the church has regarding primary teachers and so on?

Edited by ALarson
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6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

A "crowd"?  

We are not talking about inviting a "crowd" into the room....

I think you are letting your own emotions exaggerate what is taking place.  Do you not support the church leaders allowing a youth to invite a parent or youth leader to their interviews?  They must have felt there was wisdom in now offering this option and I support them in this.

How do you feel about the two deep policy the church has regarding primary teachers and so on?

I was part of the pilot program for the two-deep.  When I was left solo (which happened because I had a chronically ill partner), the door was always wide open.

Yes, you caught me using "crowd" hyperbolically to make a rhetorical point.

I am concerned about what I perceived in the lead-up to to the policy's adoption, that there was an irrational attack on individual liberty interests.  Many died in the acquisition of the priest/penitent privilege.  I know that Elder Oaks would be keeping a sharp eye on this, but I have not yet rid myself of continuing growing dread that lust for revenge against Father and Church is driving a largely ignorant electorate to insist upon cancellation of rights so very hard won.  I could list examples of what I mean, but attacks on privileged one-on-one priest/penitent communications out of fear of predators in confidential relationships with youth are part of a larger tapestry.

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I'm not saying anybody's doing it intentionally, 

But when you say things like “If there is genuine dread, somebody is encouraging or inculcating it.”,  you appear to be making that accusation.

I can assure you this is not taking place with our YW (from any of my observations).

Edited by JulieM
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2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

But when you say things like “If there is genuine dread, somebody is encouraging or inculcating it.”,  you appear to be making that accusation.

I can assure you this is not taking place with our YW (from any of my observations).

You get that my use of "genuine dread" in the context of our exchange yesterday was to differentiate between what you said was your use of the term and how I was using it, yes?  Let's parse my sentence:  IF + there is GENUINE dread + [then] SOMEBODY is encouraging or inculcating IT [genuine dread].  Genuine dread, as I used it and understood it had to do with sweats and shakes and a panicky feeling that I myself had encouraged and inculcated by a parental unit many moons ago.  

I could have used some dialing down of the drama when I was that age.  As I stated earlier, it took me quite a while to get to the point of understanding that the Bishop is just me with a different job.  Nothing wrong with kids learning this.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, JulieM said:

Yes.  I’m only relating what I’ve observed.  I absolutely don’t feel dread when I have my own interviews 😊

Calm expressed it well above (and bsjkki too).

I’m glad so many boys in your ward have great relationships with you.  That’s awesome to hear!

I think much of the "dread" and "anxiety" for children dealing with adults is a north american cultural thing.

In much of the world (and most of history), adults and youth aren't so separated.   

The whole concept of being a teenager is a new thing.  You are either an adult(capable of taking care of yourself)  or a child (Incapable of looking out for yourself).  In many Hispanic and native american cultures, You are expected to start working and taking care of yourself as a teenager (my parents in law were both married as teenagers, my mother in law when she was 14).

One of the very weird things for many I have talked to in the church is the whole concept of youth dances (why aren't the parents and grandparents even invited to dance?).  The whole 14-18 year olds, must be separated from the 18-31 year olds, who must  be separated from the older singles, who must be separated from the married people who must be separated from the young children.

There really is not reason to separate people like that other than our own cultural preferences.

 

 

Edited by Danzo
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This was on the local news, wondering what you all think. I don't think it should happen, too much bishop roulette for children that young to be interviewed.

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-considering-lowering-age-for-youth-interviews-with-clergy-from-12-to-8?fbclid=IwAR1FpgGyJi_TqsJ4L2Z_pzliDyYY1YvY_Rm5IefikWZmcfeAjL8d7KrFZyg

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This was on the local news, wondering what you all think. I don't think it should happen, too much bishop roulette for children that young to be interviewed.

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-considering-lowering-age-for-youth-interviews-with-clergy-from-12-to-8?fbclid=IwAR1FpgGyJi_TqsJ4L2Z_pzliDyYY1YvY_Rm5IefikWZmcfeAjL8d7KrFZyg

I do not understand it.

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14 minutes ago, provoman said:

I do not understand it.

I can only assume it’s about kids watching porn before age 11 these days and parents not knowing. 

I think it’s a really bad idea. 

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This was on the local news, wondering what you all think. I don't think it should happen, too much bishop roulette for children that young to be interviewed.

https://kutv.com/news/local/lds-church-considering-lowering-age-for-youth-interviews-with-clergy-from-12-to-8?fbclid=IwAR1FpgGyJi_TqsJ4L2Z_pzliDyYY1YvY_Rm5IefikWZmcfeAjL8d7KrFZyg

I think it is a good idea.

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I am told that public speaking is near the top of the "  most frightening " things to do. We raise our children to give short talks while in primary and also in front of the whole congregation . For many ( not all ) familiarity breeds confidence . That confidence is valuable in the real world and is noted . 

Any similarity for interviews ? 

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