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The Atonement Taking Place on our World

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On 6/15/2019 at 1:16 PM, california boy said:

Several of you are calling the leaders of the church during the time of Christ as being wicked.  But is that fair?  Weren't they doing their very best to protect the Church from this guy that was throwing out the Laws of Moses and countering what, at the time, was  the will of God? They were clearly concerned that this cult Christ was leading was also leading others to apostasy.  

The question really is, were the Jewish leaders really wicked?  Or were they simply trying their best to figure out what God wanted them to do.  They weren't even willing to do the killing.  They talked the Romans into doing their dirty work.

How on earth could we really answer that question? There's so little data. We have in the Talmud references to some key figures - but the larger populace of elites? We have Christ calling them hypocrits because they focused on outwardly appearances but on key behaviors (charity, sexual morality) he presents them as doing an other. That's common enough among elites it'd be surprising if it weren't going on. The question is how much.

Further there's also the "good intentions" fallacy. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Evangelical church showing the Godmakers may well have good intentions, but that doesn't mean what they are doing is good.

That unavoidably then gets into the ethical question of what makes something good. Is it its consequences or the intents of those doing the actions?

Edited by clarkgoble
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15 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

How on earth could we really answer that question? There's so little data. We have in the Talmud references to some key figures - but the larger populace of elites? We have Christ calling them hypocrits because they focused on outwardly appearances but on key behaviors (charity, sexual morality) he presents them as doing an other. That's common enough among elites it'd be surprising if it weren't going on. The question is how much.

Further there's also the "good intentions" fallacy. As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The Evangelical church showing the Godmakers may well have good intentions, but that doesn't mean what they are doing is good.

That unavoidably then gets into the ethical question of what makes something good. Is it its consequences or the intents of those doing the actions?

I think you made my point.  We can't just call them wicked.  We don't know their intents.  While certainly what they did was horrific, their belief of whether they sincerely thought they were doing the will of God is impossible to know for sure.  It is just as easy to think they honestly thought they were doing the will of God as it is to believe they had evil motives.  When people honestly believe they are following the will of God, they do all kinds of things that seem contrary to what Christ taught.  

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On 6/16/2019 at 7:38 PM, SettingDogStar said:

I think, from their point of view, they were trying to preserve their traditions by killing Jesus. He was teaching false doctrines, gathering a following, and being hailed as a Messiah which was severely damaging to the faith these leaders professed. Of course that wasn't really true because Jesus was essentially restoring the religion these priests had muddled together with their cultural hedges, interpretations, and traditions. Killing him was obviously evil, it was the Savior of the world and had the leaders of the Jewish church at the time just been a hair more diligent in listening to it's whispers they would have quickly found out who it was they accused. HOWEVER I don't think it was evil in the essence that they were having little chats with satan in the backroom of their synagogues or making some kind of hellish secret pack. They were attempting to protect what they believed was true.

I think the difference lies within the Spirit. I don't agree with certain excommunications of people, but I also don't see both side usually. However for the most part the people cut off because of their actions against the church (which you could say Jesus was doing too in essence) are cut off because of the Spiritual promptings of the various Bishops and Stake presidents praying and receiving an answer. The Jewish leaders obviously lacked that spirit.

I'm not saying all excommunications are spirit filled, I don't believe they all are nor are some of them totally justified from what I read. 

You said it better than I did.  I totally agree.

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