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Bernard Gui

Why Judas?

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Posted (edited)

Reading this week’s Come Follow Me lesson, I wondered why the Jewish leaders took up Judas’s offer to identify Jesus so they could arrest him. They knew who he was, and could easily have located him.

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Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?
When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Bernard Gui

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So the prophecy in Zechariah 11:12  could be fulfilled?

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver"


 

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Thank you. Yes, I considered that since there are other references to events that fulfilled prophecies. 

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Reading this week’s Come Follow Me lesson, I wondered why the Jewish leaders took up Judas’s offer to identify Jesus so they could arrest him. They knew who he was, and could easily have located him.

Any thoughts?

Maybe to feign that they weren't after Him all along, and just doing their duty at the behest of a congregant since 1) they feared the people and 2) didn't want Pilate to suspect their motives (a charge of blasphemy instead of sedition).

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Posted (edited)

I read this somewhere but correct me if I’m wrong. I’m on my phone so I’m having a hard time looking up all the quotes I need.

But I read that since  the Twelve apostles are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel right? Well since nearly all the sons of Jacob besides Joseph were pretty wicked then the twelve apostles replace them in judging their own families. However since Joseph was righteous one of the apostles had to fall away. So it will be the eleven apostles and Joseph that judge the tribes of Israel.

 

Then again what I read might be the ravings of a crazy person, just food for thought!!

Edited by SettingDogStar

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

They knew who he was, and could easily have located him.

They may have known of him, but likely didn't know him. While Jesus could draw crowds, he was still a relatively minor figure. It would be unlikely that the leaders would have ever seen him up close personally (if at all), and given that this was millennia before photography and centuries before realist art, they had no ability to identify him in bright sunlight without anyone pointing him out to them.

And, of course, this assumes that Judas was real, which is debatable.

Edited by the narrator

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4 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I read this somewhere but correct me if I’m wrong. I’m on my phone so I’m having a hard time looking up all the quotes I need.

But I read that since  the Twelve apostles are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel right? Well since nearly all the sons of Jacob besides Joseph were pretty wicked then the twelve apostles replace them in judging their own families. However since Joseph was righteous one of the apostles had to fall away. So it will be the eleven apostles and Joseph that judge the tribes of Israel.

 

Then again what I read might be the ravings of a crazy person, just food for thought!!

What did poor Benjamin do? :(

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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

What did poor Benjamin do? :(

That's what I thought when I read it but I figured the writer had a reason, or maybe they just bent the truth to match their hypothesis. 

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What did poor Benjamin do? :(

Genesis 49: 27

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15 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Genesis 49: 27

I have seen that applied to the tribe, not the man.  Anything in scripture that would explain applying it to the man?

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7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have seen that applied to the tribe, not the man.  Anything in scripture that would explain applying it to the man?

My mistake. I should have read the thread better. I thought they were talking about someone belonging to the Tribe of Benjamin.

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10 hours ago, the narrator said:

.........................And, of course, this assumes that Judas was real, which is debatable.

Yes, Judas is the archetypal bad guy, and someone has to play that role -- a ritual role, of course, and a very difficult role to play.  Just like Satan in the Garden.  The drama cannot go on without these guys.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, the narrator said:

They may have known of him, but likely didn't know him. While Jesus could draw crowds, he was still a relatively minor figure. It would be unlikely that the leaders would have ever seen him up close personally (if at all), and given that this was millennia before photography and centuries before realist art, they had no ability to identify him in bright sunlight without anyone pointing him out to them.

And, of course, this assumes that Judas was real, which is debatable.

Previously, they had plotted to do him in. During this day, they inquired of him, observed him, followed him, met with him face to face, and heard him teach parables and condemn them personally. I think they knew him. He did a lot to attract attention to himself including riding into town with a huge crowd and violently confronting moneychangers in the temple. They also had spies and servants who did their bidding and could easily follow him to his hideout. They dared not take him in the daytime because they feared the people would react against them, so they sought to take him at night. Even then, they had light, spies, and witnesses. Before Peter's denial, two young women identified him as being a disciple. I think the collected Jewish leaders and their cohorts were at least as competent as two girls.

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Matt 21: And a very great multitude spread their garments in the way; others cut down branches from the trees, and strawed them in the way. And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. 10 And when he was come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, Who is this? 11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee. 12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves. 14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased, 16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?....23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority? 24 And Jesus answered and said unto them....45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

Matt 22 23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him... 34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying.... 41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them....

I assume Judas was a real person.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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14 hours ago, CV75 said:

Maybe to feign that they weren't after Him all along, and just doing their duty at the behest of a congregant since 1) they feared the people and 2) didn't want Pilate to suspect their motives (a charge of blasphemy instead of sedition).

Interesting. So, they needed one of his own to betray him in order to cover their true motives?

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They feared his followers and sent guards who may or may not have seen him up close or at all. They came at night to avoid the possibility of a scene and we often forget in the modern world how much more an impact darkness had then then it does now. Our paintings of Gethsemane are very optimistic on how much would actually be visible to an observer. Approaching openly and then holding  a torch or lamp up to each of the apostles to see their face would have allowed Jesus to run if he chose to. I suspect this was more of an ambush then an arrest. They came without lights and approached quietly. Judas approached and identified Jesus and kissed him. Then the guards knew which figure in the dark was Jesus and jumped him. Something that looked more like an ambush then an arrest would also explain why Peter was so quick to fight back. In any case it is how I would have planned it if I was setting up the arrest/abduction.

You are as devious as they were! Thanks for the comments. I like the idea of an ambush, but Jesus was expecting it, no?

In Luke 22, it appears that some of those who had observed him in the temple that day were in the mob that came with Judas. 

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52 Then Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves? 53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

Where does it say they came without light? The didn't have matches to fire up the torches once they made contact. They had enough light for Peter to see the servant's ear that he removed with his sword and for Jesus to heal it.

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John 18: Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

Kinda hard to ambush when you're lit up with torches and lanterns. That would be a Polish Army trick. ^_^

Edited by Bernard Gui

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16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Reading this week’s Come Follow Me lesson, I wondered why the Jewish leaders took up Judas’s offer to identify Jesus so they could arrest him. They knew who he was, and could easily have located him.

Any thoughts?

It was night.  A close associate would clearly be more likely to make a positive identification -- there may have been fear of a deliberate lookalike. There may have been Jewish leaders in the crowd coming for him, but the person in charge (guard captain?) may not have been familiar with Jesus.  

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Interesting. So, they needed one of his own to betray him in order to cover their true motives?

Not necessarily one of His own, but anybody but themselves. By "congregant" I meant an observant Jew. But you bring up a good point, one of His own would make a very good witness. It also seems that they needed witnesses other than themselves to "judge righteously." I think they found Judas' offer very serendipitous.

Edited by CV75
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The lesson of Judas, is don't trust apostles.  Jesus was betrayed by his own and killed by organized religion as a warning to prevent everyone from misplacing their faith.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Not necessarily one of His own, but anybody but themselves. By "congregant" I meant an observant Jew. But you bring up a good point, one of His own would make a very good witness. It also seems that they needed witnesses other than themselves to "judge righteously." I think they found Judas' offer very serendipitous.

I think they could have easily, found, identified, and arrested Jesus without him. Judas then have been icing on the cake of their conspiracy. Is this what you are suggesting? 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, changed said:

The lesson of Judas, is don't trust apostles.  Jesus was betrayed by his own and killed by organized religion as a warning to prevent everyone from misplacing their faith.  

Yes indeed. I would never trust those men who left their normal lives for the privilege of preaching the gospel, endure torture, hunger, extreme exertions, beatings, and suffer painful deaths to ever tell the truth about anything, even less to have any confidence in the Church they organized. If you don't trust His apostles, then how can you come to know on what to base your faith? 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think they could have easily, found, identified, and arrested Jesus without him. Judas then have been icing on the cake of their conspiracy. Is this what you are suggesting? 

Yes, though I think the Sanhedrin would have welcomed anyone coming forth, as they had been instigating stooges to play the part of pointing Him out (not because they did not know who He was, but to give the appearance that they were only objectively responding to an identified need to counter any impression they wanted to kill Him).

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Oops, missed the lights. So, not as good an ambush as mine. That is okay. I doubt the head of the Chief Priest’s guards read Sun Tzu.

My theory still holds. Even with torches and lanterns it is difficult in the dark to quickly identify an individual. Seeing Judas kiss Jesus made it clear to them who they were after.

2 hours ago, changed said:

The lesson of Judas, is don't trust apostles.  Jesus was betrayed by his own and killed by organized religion as a warning to prevent everyone from misplacing their faith.  

Why do you have this hatred of organization? I mean, I kind of get it. I prefer a laid back approach to life (I am trying to repent) but this seems way beyond that.

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6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It was night.  A close associate would clearly be more likely to make a positive identification -- there may have been fear of a deliberate lookalike. There may have been Jewish leaders in the crowd coming for him, but the person in charge (guard captain?) may not have been familiar with Jesus.  

Great observations. They did have torches and lanterns (lamps) and could have sent spies to track His movements. Even two girls recognized Peter when he denied knowing Christ. 

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22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, though I think the Sanhedrin would have welcomed anyone coming forth, as they had been instigating stooges to play the part of pointing Him out (not because they did not know who He was, but to give the appearance that they were only objectively responding to an identified need to counter any impression they wanted to kill Him).

This makes sense, considering they would eventually have to take him to the Romans if they wanted to take any legal action. 

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