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HappyJackWagon

Pres. Nelson Meets with Owner of Pulse Nightclub

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11 hours ago, Calm said:

I would suggest using science rather than indignation to refute his claims.

If his claims about the lack of improvement post transition are accurate (and they were several years ago when I last looked up the subject, but those might be out of date), then he is right to be concerned about encouraging surgery as treatment based on the risks of having major surgeryeven if one doesn't view it as selfmutilation, etc.

I have much the same concerns for those individuals who seek out extensive cosmetic surgeries to improve their feeling of connection and worth to their bodies (not restorative surgery such as that sometimes helpful for back pain post pregnancies) and appearance.

If you look at what Nehor said, he doesn't sound to me like he has an open mind on the topic. Besides, from what I've read of the science its not like there are any slam dunk studies specifically about gender reassignment surgery at this point.  Longitudinal studies take time, and from what I know about this community the percentage of people who elect to have surgery is a small percent, while many others may take hormones or some may just present differently in dress and grooming, there are a wide variety of different approaches.  

What I think is more important is a basic position of respect that is guided by our Christian ethic.  Its a position that we ought to grant to most groups, especially people that are struggling to navigate their lives in a very prejudiced society that doesn't understand the complexities of gender identity.  

For those who want to use science to try and support their strong bias for something, there are many ways someone can do that.  Look how at the creative the flat earthers are and how passionate and strongly they argue their position using science (albeit a misinformed view) and I think we can see how bias influences someone in spite of the strength of the science.  

 

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8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I bet cocaine addicts would find the comparison offensive as well. Both need help. Validating their desires to mutilate their own bodies to alleviate distress is not helping.

Its sad when people feel the need to put down others to try and feel better about themselves.  Seeking validation through comparison.  

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29 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Its sad when people feel the need to put down others to try and feel better about themselves.  Seeking validation through comparison.  

If I needed validation I would not sneeringly look down at cocaine addicts and those saddled with psychological issues. I have one of the latter myself. Also, there are much better people I could look down on in contempt if I felt so inclined. Clowns for instance.

If you are implying that I pray every day thanking God for making me better then those with gender dysphoria or those whose lives have led them to cocaine addiction to cope with something then I would like to assert that I do not. I want them to be happy and I am convinced that the path they are following will lead to misery and regret.

35 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

If you look at what Nehor said, he doesn't sound to me like he has an open mind on the topic. Besides, from what I've read of the science its not like there are any slam dunk studies specifically about gender reassignment surgery at this point.  Longitudinal studies take time, and from what I know about this community the percentage of people who elect to have surgery is a small percent, while many others may take hormones or some may just present differently in dress and grooming, there are a wide variety of different approaches.  

What I think is more important is a basic position of respect that is guided by our Christian ethic.  Its a position that we ought to grant to most groups, especially people that are struggling to navigate their lives in a very prejudiced society that doesn't understand the complexities of gender identity.  

For those who want to use science to try and support their strong bias for something, there are many ways someone can do that.  Look how at the creative the flat earthers are and how passionate and strongly they argue their position using science (albeit a misinformed view) and I think we can see how bias influences someone in spite of the strength of the science.  

 

I have not looked in a while but I did find one study showing positive results but the methodology did not impress me. Too many people dropped out of the study. Most are the same as I remember. A higher rate of suicide, depression, ongoing psychological issues, and way too much regret. There is also almost always childhood trauma. A shocking amount of it. There is an incredibly strong argument that it is not an inborn thing.

I also found a kind of horrifying report suggesting kids and teens with gender dysphoria should be placed on hormone blockers until they are ready to make a decision on gender. Thirteen and fourteen year olds should not be making those decisions and I am not sure their parents should be either. The anti-vaccination movement has also shown me that sometimes the nanny state is necessary to save children and society in general from their parents.

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Does the description “mutilate their own bodies” only apply to genital reassignment? 

 

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56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If I needed validation I would not sneeringly look down at cocaine addicts and those saddled with psychological issues. I have one of the latter myself. Also, there are much better people I could look down on in contempt if I felt so inclined. Clowns for instance.

If you are implying that I pray every day thanking God for making me better then those with gender dysphoria or those whose lives have led them to cocaine addiction to cope with something then I would like to assert that I do not. I want them to be happy and I am convinced that the path they are following will lead to misery and regret.

I have not looked in a while but I did find one study showing positive results but the methodology did not impress me. Too many people dropped out of the study. Most are the same as I remember. A higher rate of suicide, depression, ongoing psychological issues, and way too much regret. There is also almost always childhood trauma. A shocking amount of it. There is an incredibly strong argument that it is not an inborn thing.

I also found a kind of horrifying report suggesting kids and teens with gender dysphoria should be placed on hormone blockers until they are ready to make a decision on gender. Thirteen and fourteen year olds should not be making those decisions and I am not sure their parents should be either. The anti-vaccination movement has also shown me that sometimes the nanny state is necessary to save children and society in general from their parents.

I have a niece that may be on the precipice of this, she dresses and looks like the male gender but she has come out as gay. Which is what a lot of trans do...for one, Chaz Bono. There is a documentary of his transformation called "Becoming Chaz", that I'll watch later that is on Amazon Prime and other networks. I doubt my niece would transition and btw, the study you read that there being a reason for it, such as  trauma in childhood, would not be my niece. I think there are so many reasons, such as the body make up that could cause one to be gay or trans. And, I believe the "t" belongs in LGBTQ and maybe a few other letters are going to be added! ;)

If you have Amazon here is a link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B00A2KI8CU/ref=atv_dl_rdr

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Does the description “mutilate their own bodies” only apply to genital reassignment? 

 

I would suggest that packing yourself full of hormones might also qualify.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I would suggest that packing yourself full of hormones might also qualify.

Tough call isn’t it.  How many menopausal women depend on unnatural levels of hormone treatment just so they feel sane.  And would other optional surgeries requiring cutting and stuffing also qualify as self mutilation and why not? 

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23 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Nope. Here is the instruction:

Deut 20:

There are other instances, and those are the ones I'm referring to. Such as the instruction to go to the Amalekites and "slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***" (1. Sam 15:3).

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23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is actually both. In some cases they were to offer surrender but for certain people enumerated specifically they were to supposed to kill them all.

Yes, and the latter are the ones I'm referring to.

23 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I personally suspect these sections of the Old Testament were tampered with to play up the glories of Israel

I take it further and am skeptical of them having much historical reality at all.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Tough call isn’t it.  How many menopausal women depend on unnatural levels of hormone treatment just so they feel sane.  And would other optional surgeries requiring cutting and stuffing also qualify as self mutilation and why not? 

They may be unnatural for that particular time of their life, but chances are their levels were that amount sometime in their life.  It is not something their bodies have never experienced before nor does it usually create much physical appearance change besides more resilient skin in my understanding.

Plastic surgery not to repair damage, but for changing one's appearance is iffy for me.  An extensive birthmark that opens a kid up to teasing, if relatively easy to remove and no structural changes involved...I don't have an issue with.  Someone wanting a nose or other job to improve already decent looks, I would hope they might view therapy helping them be more comfortable in their own skin first (and this is from someone who would love to get rid of the excess under my chin I had even when a skinny preteen that at certain angles looks like a double chin and the massive bags under my eyes probably a result of my sleep disorder...if there were some very safe, inexpensive way to remove either, would I do it? Maybe...I get what it means to look in a mirror and not see oneself as I was a small, slender tomboy and I don't really recognize myself since I hit puberty).

I worry about a society that promotes surgery to achieve idealized, standard looks rather than seeing beauty in variety.  I want people to feel good about themselves and many do achieve confidence through surgery, but by taking this path are they setting up their children and neighbours' children to feel negative about their own appearance?  It seems too easily a vicious cycle

Edited by Calm

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23 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Islam is a political religion so being "politically motivated" is practically moot. What about these murders leads you to believe that it was in response to US foreign policy which killed "millions?" In the first Persian Gulf war, the Unites States intervened at the behest of Kuwait whom Saddam Hussein overran. I do agree that the 2nd Persian Gulf War was unjustified, but I don't think that resulted in millions of civilian casualties. If you are talking about Obama's policies of supporting various Muslim rebels in Libya and Syria, I could probably concede the policy was a bad one, but it seemed to be an answer to the wishes of the Muslim brotherhood... but then I guess you don't think they understand their religion.  I'm a little put out though by people who seem to always blame all the problems of the Middle East on the United States. If there were no United States, they would definitely be fighting each other until there was only one caliphate left or would be fighting all their neighbors as 1400 years of history has shown.

Christianity, Judaism, and virtually all major religions have been political religions at one point or another. It's quite clear now that the Pulse shooter committed his evil act in response to American foreign policy. Should only take you a few minutes to find that out. And US intervention and meddling in the Middles East predate Desert Storm by decades, particularly with Operation Ajax. After that ticked off Iran, we then supported Hussein in a fight against them, providing him with funding and weapons. And for good measure, with Iran-Contra we sold weapons to Iran to fight Iraq. The list of meddling in the Middle East, and the growing pile of bodies that resulted from them is well too long to list. The help that Kuwait asked for only came from a portion of its citizens, with a good portion of its others asking for Hussein to come in. Let's not forget that we trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviets for us, and let him and the other mujahadeen high and dry after they were no longer needed--who used that training to also commit evil while responding to our meddling out there. (No, he didn't care about our freedoms or whatever we want to do in the US. He just wanted us out of their lands.) Our support of Saudi Arabia against Yemen has only added to the pile of bodies of dead citizens. Obama's drone doctrine with the goal of less US soldier casualties without caring for the lives of foreign citizens fueled the problem more, and Trump has poured jet fuel on it.

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have not looked in a while but I did find one study showing positive results but the methodology did not impress me. Too many people dropped out of the study. Most are the same as I remember. A higher rate of suicide, depression, ongoing psychological issues, and way too much regret. There is also almost always childhood trauma. A shocking amount of it. There is an incredibly strong argument that it is not an inborn thing.

Are you trying to say, with this distaste for the T in LGBTQ, that if the people who so suffer from suicide, depression, ongoing psychological issues and way too much regret, would not be suicidal, depressed, have ongoing psychological issues nor have regret if they did not become transgender?  I mean, perhaps it is that you simply don't realize that those who are transgender suffer the suicide, depression and all of that not because they are transgender but because they are treated poorly and it messes with their heads?  

The problem with your "it's better if they were never transgender" position is, you'd never know.  The results you are seeing are for those who are transgender--you can't rewind history and make them replay it differently.  It doesn't sound like you have any interest in dealing with reality but seem more interested to push on others some weird view of you know what you're talking about because you guessed you are right about what other people are feeling, thinking, and doing.  

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

There is a difference in recognizing there are legitimate issues and hardships people have to deal with and disagreeing with how those issues are being framed and treated.  The latter isn't automatically lacking in compassion or understanding.

If I understand Nehor correctly, he believes the treatment of changing gender permanently is counterproductive as demonstrated anecdotally in the lives of those he knows and scientifically in studies showing little or negative change post treatment....leading to adding to the burden of those experiencing gender dysphoria rather than helping them.  He is not suggesting being dismissive of their difficulties, but rather look at them more closely to find more effective treatments while avoiding treatments that may set them up with permanent damage that is difficult to heal if other treatments are found to be better.

Edited by Calm
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Speaking of sexual abuse being a if not the big "thing" in the lives of homosexuals, here is a somewhat prominent individual's confessional, in which he admits without much elaboration, that his first experience was when he was 16  ...  with a 40-year-old. He claims with what appears to be some authority that his story is pretty much the norm.  Have a gander/listen.  Start at about 2:40, to give you a feel for the man as was as a boy:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

There is a difference in recognizing there are legitimate issues and hardships people have to deal with and disagreeing with how those issues are being framed and treated.  The latter isn't automatically lacking in compassion or understanding.

If I understand Nehor correctly, he believes the treatment of changing gender permanently is counterproductive as demonstrated anecdotally in the lives of those he knows and scientifically in studies showing little or negative change post treatment....leading to adding to the burden of those experiencing gender dysphoria rather than helping them.  He is not suggesting being dismissive of their difficulties, but rather look at them more closely to find more effective treatments while avoiding treatments that may set them up with permanent damage that is difficult to heal if other treatments are found to be better.

I agree with the assessment and find it difficult to believe anyone could reach another conclusion about what he meant

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Speaking of sexual abuse being a if not the big "thing" in the lives of homosexuals, here is a somewhat prominent individual's confessional, in which he admits without much elaboration, that his first experience was when he was 16  ...  with a 40-year-old. He claims with what appears to be some authority that his story is pretty much the norm.  Have a gander/listen.  Start at about 2:40, to give you a feel for the man as was as a boy:

 

 

I wonder how many generations has this been going on? Are these abuses recent phenomenon or have they always been there to this extent and we were unaware due to less ability to communicate?

If it has always been there to this degree is it any wonder the Lord has said darkness covers the earth?

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3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Are you trying to say, with this distaste for the T in LGBTQ, that if the people who so suffer from suicide, depression, ongoing psychological issues and way too much regret, would not be suicidal, depressed, have ongoing psychological issues nor have regret if they did not become transgender?  I mean, perhaps it is that you simply don't realize that those who are transgender suffer the suicide, depression and all of that not because they are transgender but because they are treated poorly and it messes with their heads?  

The problem with your "it's better if they were never transgender" position is, you'd never know.  The results you are seeing are for those who are transgender--you can't rewind history and make them replay it differently.  It doesn't sound like you have any interest in dealing with reality but seem more interested to push on others some weird view of you know what you're talking about because you guessed you are right about what other people are feeling, thinking, and doing.  

I am not sure you understood anything I said. I am not suggesting that deciding to take hormones or have surgery somehow causes the emotional and psychological problems. I am saying the problems existed before and, in general, they do not get better afterwards and often get worse. Hormone therapy and surgical alteration are both medical procedures. What do we ideally do if we have a treatment option that is shown to pretty much not help at all? We discontinue it and look for other solutions.

I think being treated poorly is part of the problem but the problem is often in the past. As I said before the child abuse rate amongst those who seek to transition is appalling. That is where prevention would be key.

Your little tangent where you argue that it has been done and we cannot go back is true but that is not the issue. The question is should we continue to allow it (legally) and support the idea of doing it (socially). You, in essence, want me to throw up my hands and say since it is happening now it should continue indefinitely because those who have had these treatments cannot go back. I doubt you would support the same logic applied to female genital mutilation or circumcision. Those who have transitioned are hopefully loved and not alienated but that is irrelevant to the question of whether transitioning is a good idea in the first place.

Also, please do not use quotes like that. It suggests I actually said those words and I did not.

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1 hour ago, Avatar4321 said:

I wonder how many generations has this been going on? Are these abuses recent phenomenon or have they always been there to this extent and we were unaware due to less ability to communicate?

If it has always been there to this degree is it any wonder the Lord has said darkness covers the earth?

I'm 65. It was a "thing" in my father's youth. He was sexually assaulted hitching during WWII, heading to Logan in a three-day pass at age 18 to visit his fiance.

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure you understood anything I said. I am not suggesting that deciding to take hormones or have surgery somehow causes the emotional and psychological problems. I am saying the problems existed before and, in general, they do not get better afterwards and often get worse. Hormone therapy and surgical alteration are both medical procedures. What do we ideally do if we have a treatment option that is shown to pretty much not help at all? We discontinue it and look for other solutions.

I got that.  What I’m getting at is these suicidal or psychological problems could be present whether they take hormones or have surgery.  You wouldn’t know if any problems as you describe would be better or worse if no hormones or surgery.  You’re making a guess and that’s what I took issue with.  

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think being treated poorly is part of the problem but the problem is often in the past. As I said before the child abuse rate amongst those who seek to transition is appalling. That is where prevention would be key.

Your little tangent where you argue that it has been done and we cannot go back is true but that is not the issue. The question is should we continue to allow it (legally) and support the idea of doing it (socially). You, in essence, want me to throw up my hands and say since it is happening now it should continue indefinitely because those who have had these treatments cannot go back. I doubt you would support the same logic applied to female genital mutilation or circumcision. Those who have transitioned are hopefully loved and not alienated but that is irrelevant to the question of whether transitioning is a good idea in the first place.

Also, please do not use quotes like that. It suggests I actually said those words and I did not.

Nah you got me wrong.  I don’t get the need you seem to have to conclude all of this about a whole population without seeming to grasp the issue in the first place.  That is they may have a far better grasp of what they need than you.  How could you possibly know?  Because you saw a few studies and really want/need to conclude that which your biases have already decided?  

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I got that.  What I’m getting at is these suicidal or psychological problems could be present whether they take hormones or have surgery.  You wouldn’t know if any problems as you describe would be better or worse if no hormones or surgery.  You’re making a guess and that’s what I took issue with.  

Nah you got me wrong.  I don’t get the need you seem to have to conclude all of this about a whole population without seeming to grasp the issue in the first place.  That is they may have a far better grasp of what they need than you.  How could you possibly know?  Because you saw a few studies and really want/need to conclude that which your biases have already decided?  

To the first there have been studies of before and after health. Not especially long term studies but they are out there and most suggest the procedure does not help.

As to the rest I can claim that you are also concluding that your biases are correct.......without a few studies. The scales tilt towards me and I win!

Edited by The Nehor

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21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

False dichotomy.

Really?  A clear reading of OT scripture says otherwise.  

4 Kings 2:23-24 

Genesis 22:1-12

Numbers 16:41-49

Genesis 38:1-10

Judges 14:1-19

Numbers 16:1-49)

If you take the OT literally, then god is a monster.

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, USU78 said:

I'm 65. It was a "thing" in my father's youth. He was sexually assaulted hitching during WWII, heading to Logan in a three-day pass at age 18 to visit his fiance.

Well, this episode didn't make your father gay did it? Were you trying to say that the Broadway star is gay because he had a sexual encounter with an older man at 16? Not trying to be rude, I just wanted you to see that it is ludicrous to think a sexual abuse encounter can turn someone gay, if that is what you or Nehor were getting at, of course Nehor was saying an abused person could cause someone to become transgender, I believe. ETA: I wanted to say how sorry I am that your dad suffered such a traumatic experience. 

Edited by Tacenda

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1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Really?  A clear reading of OT scripture says otherwise.  

4 Kings 2:23-24 

Genesis 22:1-12

Numbers 16:41-49

Genesis 38:1-10

Judges 14:1-19

Numbers 16:1-49)

If you take the OT literally, then god is a monster.

 

I do not trust many of the authors of the Old Testament and do not take it literally.

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45 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, this episode didn't make your father gay did it? Were you trying to say that the Broadway star is gay because he had a sexual encounter with an older man at 16? Not trying to be rude, I just wanted you to see that it is ludicrous to think a sexual abuse encounter can turn someone gay, if that is what you or Nehor were getting at, of course Nehor was saying an abused person could cause someone to become transgender, I believe. ETA: I wanted to say how sorry I am that your dad suffered such a traumatic experience. 

The data suggests that but it is abuse in general that seems to be a contributing factor, not just sexual abuse.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The data suggests that but it is abuse in general that seems to be a contributing factor, not just sexual abuse.

My nephew on my husband's side was sexually abused by a foreign exchange student when younger at a friend's house. But that didn't make him gay, he may have been a target because the perp sensed that. And my nephew has an aunt, his mom's sister that is gay, so maybe it came down in the genes. Not sure.

Edited by Tacenda

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