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HappyJackWagon

Pres. Nelson Meets with Owner of Pulse Nightclub

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Very cool! 

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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is a very nice gesture for President Nelson to invite the owner of the Pulse nightclub where 49 LGBT individuals were murdered a few years ago. It is also a very nice gesture that the owner accepted the invitation to the reception where they were able to talk. AND high ranking members of church leadership will be attending the Remembrance Ceremony for the victims.

I've gotta admit though, that I'm surprised by the story. Pleasantly surprised.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900074619/president-russell-m-nelson-orlando-pulse-nightclub-owner-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormon.html?fbclid=IwAR1sh4qICmxSaZom7cXpGVIF4TnE2YSA4pJQKsbw_rjVA0dtUyTtzN_lsBQ 

 

Thanks for sharing this.  I have some mixed feelings.  I worry that the PR department is getting more focused on a subtle game plan of deception to show a more gentle and empathetic public message towards the LGBTQ community.  Which in an of itself, should be a good thing that I should be excited about.  My worry is that the substance behind the PR will remain the same, so on a more negative note, I worry that the church leaders have a duplicitous position towards the LGBTQ community.  One where they want to look publicly like they care and that they view them as equals, but at the same time continue policies and practices within the church that are discriminatory and that they personally maintain an air of superiority about them, which comes across to me not as the kind of love Jesus articulated.  

On a more positive note, I hope that these kinds of interactions can soften hearts and that eventually church leaders will start to see that LGBTQ individuals aren't inferior or immoral, but that they are part of the beautiful variety of life that God created and they don't threaten the human race and its moral institutions, but that they enhance it through the diversity that they bring.  They should be celebrated and embraced, not looked on as inferior or flawed or in need of enlightenment.  Church leaders are the ones who need enlightenment on this topic.  

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13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for sharing this.  I have some mixed feelings.  I worry that the PR department is getting more focused on a subtle game plan of deception to show a more gentle and empathetic public message towards the LGBTQ community.  Which in an of itself, should be a good thing that I should be excited about.  My worry is that the substance behind the PR will remain the same, so on a more negative note, I worry that the church leaders have a duplicitous position towards the LGBTQ community.  One where they want to look publicly like they care and that they view them as equals, but at the same time continue policies and practices within the church that are discriminatory and that they personally maintain an air of superiority about them, which comes across to me not as the kind of love Jesus articulated.  

On a more positive note, I hope that these kinds of interactions can soften hearts and that eventually church leaders will start to see that LGBTQ individuals aren't inferior or immoral, but that they are part of the beautiful variety of life that God created and they don't threaten the human race and its moral institutions, but that they enhance it through the diversity that they bring.  They should be celebrated and embraced, not looked on as inferior or flawed or in need of enlightenment.  Church leaders are the ones who need enlightenment on this topic.  

I keep thinking that Wendy is behind a lot of these changes...you know the old saying: behind every good man is a good woman. :)

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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It is a very nice gesture for President Nelson to invite the owner of the Pulse nightclub where 49 LGBT individuals were murdered a few years ago. It is also a very nice gesture that the owner accepted the invitation to the reception where they were able to talk. AND high ranking members of church leadership will be attending the Remembrance Ceremony for the victims.

I've gotta admit though, that I'm surprised by the story. Pleasantly surprised.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900074619/president-russell-m-nelson-orlando-pulse-nightclub-owner-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-mormon.html?fbclid=IwAR1sh4qICmxSaZom7cXpGVIF4TnE2YSA4pJQKsbw_rjVA0dtUyTtzN_lsBQ 

 

No surprise, because no matter the lifestyle, murder is the greatest sin, and no one deserves to be murdered, and no one is justified in murdering anyone for any reason. So any of our Prophets should and would show compassion, least they have no compassion showed to them on the day of judgement.  

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18 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Thanks for sharing this.  I have some mixed feelings.  I worry that the PR department is getting more focused on a subtle game plan of deception to show a more gentle and empathetic public message towards the LGBTQ community.  Which in an of itself, should be a good thing that I should be excited about.  My worry is that the substance behind the PR will remain the same, so on a more negative note, I worry that the church leaders have a duplicitous position towards the LGBTQ community.  One where they want to look publicly like they care and that they view them as equals, but at the same time continue policies and practices within the church that are discriminatory and that they personally maintain an air of superiority about them, which comes across to me not as the kind of love Jesus articulated.  

On a more positive note, I hope that these kinds of interactions can soften hearts and that eventually church leaders will start to see that LGBTQ individuals aren't inferior or immoral, but that they are part of the beautiful variety of life that God created and they don't threaten the human race and its moral institutions, but that they enhance it through the diversity that they bring.  They should be celebrated and embraced, not looked on as inferior or flawed or in need of enlightenment.  Church leaders are the ones who need enlightenment on this topic.  

Totally agree. I continue to feel whiplash when it comes to the church and LGBTQ relations.

And I hear you about this being a PR move, and you might be right. But even if you are, it's still a good thing. Many members of the church are shifting in their opinions of LGBT issues including SSM, and seeing church leaders take a more loving position will only help that shift happen with more people...IMO. The church response to LGBT issues is like the pendulum that shifts from one side to the other but eventually, members are going to a. recognize it as a PR move or b. follow the example of the brethren in being more loving. The church's negative responses will have less power over the opinions of church members...I hope :) 

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9 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

No surprise, because no matter the lifestyle, murder is the greatest sin, and no one deserves to be murdered, and no one is justified in murdering anyone for any reason. So any of our Prophets should and would show compassion, least they have no compassion showed to them on the day of judgement.  

Nice sentiment but... if we try really hard, can we think of scriptural examples of justifiable murder? ;) 

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5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I keep thinking that Wendy is behind a lot of these changes...you know the old saying: behind every good man is a good woman. :)

I would hope any changes in openly showing compassion for those who struggle with “same sex attraction”, comes from God, and not from mortal influences. Having said that, any and all good wives can and do give needed direction when it relates to manners, and edict (hope that is correct spelling) , as we men often need our rough edges made smoth. Women are by far more attuned to proper public and private behavior, or at least those I know. 

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19 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I keep thinking that Wendy is behind a lot of these changes...you know the old saying: behind every good man is a good woman. :)

Ha, even though he makes her step out of the room in the middle of the night so he can receive revelation.  Maybe she's whispering something from behind the door and he's thinking its the spirit.  Very savvy!  :D

In all seriousness though, do you think Wendy is more liberal than Nelson when it comes to LGBTQ issues?  She's a lot younger generationally, but she also wrote that horrible Not Even Once Club book.  

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11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Nice sentiment but... if we try really hard, can we think of scriptural examples of justifiable murder? ;) 

Not under New Testament standards, as Paul taught (to paraphrase), “the Old Testament was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ”. So yes, in the OT, many things were cited as reasons to kill, which makes one wonder, what was God’s law, and Man’s law”, that creeped into the OT? But, now we live under the” New Covenant”, and  the law of the land, or the Western laws of the land. But sadly, in much of the Eastern world, due to the Koran, or those who use it as law, many are killed for many reasons. Which is why this person felt as if he had the right to kill these people, or felt he needed too. Or so I have read.  

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Ha, even though he makes her step out of the room in the middle of the night so he can receive revelation.  Maybe she's whispering something from behind the door and he's thinking its the spirit.  Very savvy!  :D

In all seriousness though, do you think Wendy is more liberal than Nelson when it comes to LGBTQ issues?  She's a lot younger generationally, but she also wrote that horrible Not Even Once Club book.  

Forgot about that, I didn't like that book. 

Edited by Tacenda

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42 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Totally agree. I continue to feel whiplash when it comes to the church and LGBTQ relations.

And I hear you about this being a PR move, and you might be right. But even if you are, it's still a good thing. Many members of the church are shifting in their opinions of LGBT issues including SSM, and seeing church leaders take a more loving position will only help that shift happen with more people...IMO. The church response to LGBT issues is like the pendulum that shifts from one side to the other but eventually, members are going to a. recognize it as a PR move or b. follow the example of the brethren in being more loving. The church's negative responses will have less power over the opinions of church members...I hope :) 

I agree with you that I'm seeing more nuanced views from many members.  I think they are shifting faster than the brethren, at least when it comes to how they actually treat LGBTQ individuals.  Unfortunately, I think there are some members who are so devout in their eyes, that the follow the brethren's lead on these issues and they continue to hold bigoted views on this issue, the kind of views that Elder Packer espoused only a few years back.  Those people may continue to hold these views until they hear current church leaders explicitly disavow the Packer rhetoric.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening with the current administration.  

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36 minutes ago, provoman said:

A religion, especially a Christ based religion, is deceitful for preaching a religious message; but at the same time showing, kindness, humanity toward fellow humans being regardless of whether those human beings adhere to the religious message?

Yes, it can happen and does happen with many religions and other institutions.  I believe Jesus called preaching one message and practicing something else, hypocrisy.  

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34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Nice sentiment but... if we try really hard, can we think of scriptural examples of justifiable murder? ;) 

No. Murder is the unauthorized killing of an innocent person. God authorized killing under certain circumstances for which people forfeited their lives. Critics point out that Israel committed "genocide" but under the law the people they killed in battle were to first be offered the chance to live under God's law, and then be warned. If then they did not agree or leave, they were to be killed in order to put "evil out of Israel." Nephi did not murder Laban. Laban had broken the law by stealing from Lehi, and then trying to murder his sons by which his life was forfeited to God. The Nephites went to battle to defend themselves from the unauthorized taking of their lives, so typically were justified. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Yes, it can happen and does happen with many religions and other institutions.  I believe Jesus called preaching one message and practicing something else, hypocrisy.  

What you suggesting is that showing Christ like love toward the sinner is hypocrisy.

Edited by provoman
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8 minutes ago, provoman said:

What you suggesting is that showing Christ like love toward the sinner is hypocrisy.

No, what I'm suggesting is that current church leaders are not showing Christlike love.  

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33 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

No. Murder is the unauthorized killing of an innocent person. God authorized killing under certain circumstances for which people forfeited their lives. Critics point out that Israel committed "genocide" but under the law the people they killed in battle were to first be offered the chance to live under God's law, and then be warned. If then they did not agree or leave, they were to be killed in order to put "evil out of Israel." Nephi did not murder Laban. Laban had broken the law by stealing from Lehi, and then trying to murder his sons by which his life was forfeited to God. The Nephites went to battle to defend themselves from the unauthorized taking of their lives, so typically were justified. 

Right, so if the person doing the killing believes the person being killed deserves to be killed, based on religious teachings, it's justified.

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34 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

I agree with you that I'm seeing more nuanced views from many members.  I think they are shifting faster than the brethren, at least when it comes to how they actually treat LGBTQ individuals.  Unfortunately, I think there are some members who are so devout in their eyes, that the follow the brethren's lead on these issues and they continue to hold bigoted views on this issue, the kind of views that Elder Packer espoused only a few years back.  Those people may continue to hold these views until they hear current church leaders explicitly disavow the Packer rhetoric.  Unfortunately, I don't see that happening with the current administration.  

Or they are like most of the faithful in the 1970s who would gladly dispense with the Priesthood restriction then in place and held no malice towards the people it applied to but were also loyal to God and their leaders and limited their contributions to dealing with this to prayer. That is where I am now on LGB issues. I want further light and knowledge to come. I don’t know where it will lead but I have seen suffering and hope for some divine remedy.

I left T off because I am convinced that transgenderism is offensive to God. Its incidence is almost always comorbid with other mental illnesses and there is nothing to show that gender transition leads to better health outcomes (physically, mentally, or emotionally). Plus it involves voluntary and intentional self-mutilation which falls under desecrating a temple.

I also reject the idea that “the administration” would defy the will of God. President Kimball would have, from the outside, been one of the last people I would have expected to change the Priesthood restriction but God led him to it and taught him and he humbly followed and led the other Apostles and eventually the whole church down that road.

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29 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Right, so if the person doing the killing believes the person being killed deserves to be killed, based on religious teachings, it's justified.

Um no. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban. The Jews were commanded to kill people who broke certain aspects of the law. It is not based upon one person's judgment of whether someone else broke the law, unless it is in self-defense.

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1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

Critics point out that Israel committed "genocide" but under the law the people they killed in battle were to first be offered the chance to live under God's law, and then be warned.

Nope. Rather, the instruction in these genocides was for the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and baby. Period. IIRC, in some cases they were even instructed to kill the fetuses of pregnant women for good measure.

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1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

But sadly, in much of the Eastern world, due to the Koran, or those who use it as law, many are killed for many reasons.

Or, also, in much of the Western world, due to the Bible, or those who use it as law, many are killed for many reasons.

1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Which is why this person felt as if he had the right to kill these people, or felt he needed too.

The Pulse killer knew little of his own Islamic faith. It was more politically motivated than religiously--that is, it was a horrible response to US foreign policy that has killed or or contributed to the killing of millions of people in the Middle East.

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