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SettingDogStar

Animal Sacrifice

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I had always read the quote about sacrifice returning in the end of times. I assumed that this would be only exist in the Temple at the New Jerusalem and either before or right after the Millennium began. However I'm not sure that's true anymore, or at least it wasn't intended that way. Of course we only have a handful of quotes on the subject so a lot of it is speculation. The first time Joseph mentioned it publicly he said;

"it is generally supposed that Sacrifice was entirely done away when the great sacrifice was offered up—and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of Sacrifice in future, but those who assert this, are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood. or with the prophets The offering of Sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the priesthood. It began with the priesthood and will be continued until after the coming of Christ from generation to generation—We frequently have mention made of the offering of Sacrifice by the servants of the most high in ancient days prior to the law of Moses, which ordinances will be continued when the priesthood is restored with all its authority power and blessings. Elijah was the last prophet that held the keys of this priesthood, and who will, before the last dispensation, restore the authority and delive[r] the Keys of this priesthood in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness.'' ("Words of Joseph Smith", 5 Oct 1840)

This is the quote everyone is familiar with. It's attended by another two other quotes that I'm having a hard time dating, they may have even been the same speech but the note takers understood Joseph differently.

"The offring of Sacrifice which also shall be continued at the last time, for all the ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the priesthood under the direction and commandments of the Almighty in the last dispensation at the end thereof in any of the dispensations, shall all be had in the last dispensation. Therefore all things had under the Authority of the Priesthood at any former period shall be had again—bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets.'' (Words of Joseph Smith)

and 

"It is a very prevalent opinion that in the sacrifices of sacrifices which were offered were entirely consumed, this was not the case if you read Leviticus [2] Chap [2-3] verses you will observe that the priests took a part as a memorial and offered it up before the Lord, while the remainder was kept for the benefit maintenance of the priests. So that the offerings and sacrifices are not all consumed upon the Alter, but the blood is sprinkled and the fat and certain other portions are consumed These sacrifices as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood will when the temple of the Lord shall be built and the Sons Levi be purified be fully restored and attended to then all their powers  ramifications and blessings—this the Sons of Levi shall be purified. ever was and will exist when the powers of the Melchisid Priesthood are sufficientIy manifest. Else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by all the Holy Prophets be brought to pass be brought to pass It is not to be understood that, the law of moses will be established again with all it rights and variety of ceremonies, ceremonies, this had never been spoken off by the prophets but those things which existed prior Mose's day viz Sacrifice will be continued—It may be asked by some what necessity for Sacrifice since the great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which if Repentance Baptism and faith were necessary to Salvation existed prior to the days of Christ what necessity for them since that time.'' (Words of Joseph Smith)

One of the key quotes that I found later though was one made by Brigham Young later on,

"Pres Young said that Joseph taught him [that] under the pulpit on the west end [of the Nauvoo temple] will be the place to offer sacrifices; there will be an altar prepared for that purpose so that when any sacrifices are to be offered they should be offered there." (Journal History, Dec 18, 1857)

Of course this is only the one quote that I could find where Brigham or anyone made that assertion or understand. I'm admittedly not as well versed on where to look for obscure information like this.

The main reason I bring this up is that it seems that Joseph understood that sacrifice, meaning animal sacrifice, was an ordinance that needed to be restored. Is that a piece of the restoration that we missed because of Josephs death? Or were we always intended to wait this long for something like this? Did the Temple in Nauvoo (and others) have a larger role to play in restoration then what we use them for today? 

All the temples Joseph built had two assembly halls and an upper floor. Each Temple varied slightly from the other but in rough aspects they were the same. If the Lord intended the Endowment to be as it is, is there a reason the Layout given to Joseph in vision didn't include better adaptations for the ceremony?

That is a lot of questions and I apologize, but I'm mostly just curious on your thoughts on this subject!!

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Posted (edited)

I don't understand why Joseph would want to restore everything that Jesus came to stop. He came to the earth to sacrifice for our sins and animal sacrifice was no longer needed. Why is Joseph restoring what Jesus didn't want? Although, in my heart of hearts I don't believe in animal sacrifice, I think that was done in times of people not knowing better.

Edited by Tacenda

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A sacrifice is prepared every Sabbath in every Sacrament Meeting.  The Teachers prepare the sacrifice, the Priests and Deacons perform the sacrifice.

I am not one who thinks it will happen as an 'animal sacrifice' per se or thinks it ought to happen, in any other way.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

A sacrifice is prepared every Sabbath in every Sacrament Meeting.  The Teachers prepare the sacrifice, the Priests and Deacons perform the sacrifice.

I am not one who thinks it will happen as an 'animal sacrifice' per se or thinks it ought to happen, in any other way.

I had heard that as well. That the sacrament (more aptly named the Supper of the Lord)  is the sacrifice spoken of, or that the covenant in the temple encompasses what Joseph was saying in these quotes. Which I could understand if there was just one second hand mention of it but there seems to be at least a couple contemporary accounts of Joseph legitimately saying that it is animal sacrifice that will be restored. 

Then again it could be chalked up to misunderstanding of the recorder or perhaps Joseph wasn't exactly sure that time what exactly that sacrifice would entail so he made a guess.

Edited by SettingDogStar
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13 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

A sacrifice is prepared every Sabbath in every Sacrament Meeting.  The Teachers prepare the sacrifice, the Priests and Deacons perform the sacrifice.

I am not one who thinks it will happen as an 'animal sacrifice' per se or thinks it ought to happen, in any other way.

And presumably there are broken spirits and contrite hearts participating in the congregations

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There have been previous threads on this, someone who knows the board well, coughcalm, ;) might have the time and be willing to pull that up ;)

 

 

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20 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I had heard that as well. That the sacrament (more aptly named the Supper of the Lord)  is the sacrifice spoken of, or that the covenant in the temple encompasses what Joseph was saying in these quotes. Which I could understand if there was just one second hand mention of it but there seems to be at least a couple contemporary accounts of Joseph legitimately saying that it is animal sacrifice that will be restored. 

Then again it could be chalked up to misunderstanding of the recorder or perhaps Joseph wasn't exactly sure that time what exactly that sacrifice would entail so he made a guess.

I find it likely that Joseph was contemplating animal sacrifice.  But I do hope I never see it again.

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45 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I had always read the quote about sacrifice returning in the end of times. I assumed that this would be only exist in the Temple at the New Jerusalem and either before or right after the Millennium began. However I'm not sure that's true anymore, or at least it wasn't intended that way. Of course we only have a handful of quotes on the subject so a lot of it is speculation. The first time Joseph mentioned it publicly he said;

"it is generally supposed that Sacrifice was entirely done away when the great sacrifice was offered up—and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of Sacrifice in future, but those who assert this, are certainly not acquainted with the duties, privileges and authority of the priesthood. or with the prophets The offering of Sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the priesthood. It began with the priesthood and will be continued until after the coming of Christ from generation to generation—We frequently have mention made of the offering of Sacrifice by the servants of the most high in ancient days prior to the law of Moses, which ordinances will be continued when the priesthood is restored with all its authority power and blessings. Elijah was the last prophet that held the keys of this priesthood, and who will, before the last dispensation, restore the authority and delive[r] the Keys of this priesthood in order that all the ordinances may be attended to in righteousness.'' ("Words of Joseph Smith", 5 Oct 1840)

This is the quote everyone is familiar with. It's attended by another two other quotes that I'm having a hard time dating, they may have even been the same speech but the note takers understood Joseph differently.

"The offring of Sacrifice which also shall be continued at the last time, for all the ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the priesthood under the direction and commandments of the Almighty in the last dispensation at the end thereof in any of the dispensations, shall all be had in the last dispensation. Therefore all things had under the Authority of the Priesthood at any former period shall be had again—bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets.'' (Words of Joseph Smith)

and 

"It is a very prevalent opinion that in the sacrifices of sacrifices which were offered were entirely consumed, this was not the case if you read Leviticus [2] Chap [2-3] verses you will observe that the priests took a part as a memorial and offered it up before the Lord, while the remainder was kept for the benefit maintenance of the priests. So that the offerings and sacrifices are not all consumed upon the Alter, but the blood is sprinkled and the fat and certain other portions are consumed These sacrifices as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood will when the temple of the Lord shall be built and the Sons Levi be purified be fully restored and attended to then all their powers  ramifications and blessings—this the Sons of Levi shall be purified. ever was and will exist when the powers of the Melchisid Priesthood are sufficientIy manifest. Else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by all the Holy Prophets be brought to pass be brought to pass It is not to be understood that, the law of moses will be established again with all it rights and variety of ceremonies, ceremonies, this had never been spoken off by the prophets but those things which existed prior Mose's day viz Sacrifice will be continued—It may be asked by some what necessity for Sacrifice since the great Sacrifice was offered? In answer to which if Repentance Baptism and faith were necessary to Salvation existed prior to the days of Christ what necessity for them since that time.'' (Words of Joseph Smith)

One of the key quotes that I found later though was one made by Brigham Young later on,

"Pres Young said that Joseph taught him [that] under the pulpit on the west end [of the Nauvoo temple] will be the place to offer sacrifices; there will be an altar prepared for that purpose so that when any sacrifices are to be offered they should be offered there." (Journal History, Dec 18, 1857)

Of course this is only the one quote that I could find where Brigham or anyone made that assertion or understand. I'm admittedly not as well versed on where to look for obscure information like this.

The main reason I bring this up is that it seems that Joseph understood that sacrifice, meaning animal sacrifice, was an ordinance that needed to be restored. Is that a piece of the restoration that we missed because of Josephs death? Or were we always intended to wait this long for something like this? Did the Temple in Nauvoo (and others) have a larger role to play in restoration then what we use them for today? 

All the temples Joseph built had two assembly halls and an upper floor. Each Temple varied slightly from the other but in rough aspects they were the same. If the Lord intended the Endowment to be as it is, is there a reason the Layout given to Joseph in vision didn't include better adaptations for the ceremony?

That is a lot of questions and I apologize, but I'm mostly just curious on your thoughts on this subject!!

I would think the restoration of animal sacrifice would occur once the saints as a whole themselves act in sufficient similitude of the Son of God (for example by honoring the weekly Sacrament), so that the symbolism of animal sacrifice would not be lost, rather, better internalized as something eternal expressed in a singular time-frame (Christ's suffering and execution) that has happened and no longer looking forward to something that has yet to happen. For Adam, animal sacrifice was a testament to an eternal principle, and perhaps even for those in Alma 13:1-9 (note how "forward" is used in verses 1 and 2 - not necessarily used to describe a future event but to stretch the mind beyond a temporal reference). Under the law of Moses, it was a schoolmaster, in similitude of an event yet to occur, and a more immediate, temporally oriented relief from sin. Advancing beyond that attitude is attained by becoming the kind of people the Sacrament trains us to be.

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2 hours ago, Maidservant said:

A sacrifice is prepared every Sabbath in every Sacrament Meeting.  The Teachers prepare the sacrifice, the Priests and Deacons perform the sacrifice.

This is a rather Catholic way of looking at Communion :)

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8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a rather Catholic way of looking at Communion :)

Indeed. 🙂  I love the Catholic way of viewing and practicing the Eucharist.

People don't really pay attention, but there is an altar in every LDS chapel, upon which there is the shroud placed, and upon which the body and blood (i.e. a person, Savior, or Lamb) has been placed and 'killed', shattered really, into hundreds of pieces and drops, and resurrected inside each one of us.

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

Indeed. 🙂  I love the Catholic way of viewing and practicing the Eucharist.

People don't really pay attention, but there is an altar in every LDS chapel, upon which there is the shroud placed, and upon which the body and blood (i.e. a person, Savior, or Lamb) has been placed and 'killed', shattered really, into hundreds of pieces and drops, and resurrected inside each one of us.

The wheat from the threshing floor is actually ground

 That threshing floor was eventually the temple site near Golgotha

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araunah

Edited by mfbukowski
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Mainly I’m curious if you believe that Joseph intended it to be attended to in the Nauvoo temple. From how he spoke about it and the brief comment from Brigham it seems that was part of the plan. I’ve always felt that Joseph never really got to expand the rituals the way he wanted.

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Joseph was specific.  The Mosaic law animal sacrifices aren't the ones returning.  Christ was the last sacrifice for sin.

But the principle of animal sacrifice as practiced by the Patriarchs, Adam, Abraham, etc will be restored for a purpose.

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25 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph was specific.  The Mosaic law animal sacrifices aren't the ones returning.  Christ was the last sacrifice for sin.

But the principle of animal sacrifice as practiced by the Patriarchs, Adam, Abraham, etc will be restored for a purpose.

Most definitely! Do you think the Nauvoo temple would have been retrofit for that? 

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Joseph was specific.  The Mosaic law animal sacrifices aren't the ones returning.  Christ was the last sacrifice for sin.

But the principle of animal sacrifice as practiced by the Patriarchs, Adam, Abraham, etc will be restored for a purpose.

What in the world purpose would it be to take an animal's life, unless it's for food?

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5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't understand why Joseph would want to restore everything that Jesus came to stop. He came to the earth to sacrifice for our sins and animal sacrifice was no longer needed. Why is Joseph restoring what Jesus didn't want? Although, in my heart of hearts I don't believe in animal sacrifice, I think that was done in times of people not knowing better.

I am assuming this is some kind of animal cruelty dig and I have to ask....do we know better now?

A sacrificial meal shared by a family at the temple is not that far off from celebrating Thanksgiving or Christmas.

 

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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What in the world purpose would it be to take an animal's life, unless it's for food?

In most of the sacrifices the animal was also eaten. Only in some of the sacrificial variations under the lesser Mosaic law were some animals destroyed entirely.

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2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

This is a rather Catholic way of looking at Communion :)

It is common. The cloth we cover the bread and water with is basically representative of Christ's burial shroud.

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24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is common. The cloth we cover the bread and water with is basically representative of Christ's burial shroud.

Interesting! It was a point of contention between Catholics and protestants about the true nature of the Eucharistic sacrifice. I'm glad the LDS retain at least a semblance of the Catholic understanding. It is a sacrifice made for us all, reenacted about all altars and all times across all the world. Infinite, of course, but at least offered to our finite minds.

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5 hours ago, JAHS said:

"For he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap; and he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness. Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation." (D&C 128:24)

Rather than animal sacrifices, this seems to allude to how we now can make an "offering in righteousness" as we perform temple work for our ancestors. 

The context of that Scripture is clear and it definitely refers to animal sacrifice.  The Jews are already prepared to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem, and they know that it will include animal sacrifice.  The LDS Church will have no say in the matter, although Apostle Orson Hyde did personally dedicate the Holy Land and the Jews to the rebuilding of their temple.  That is as official as it gets.  Moreover, Joseph said:

Quote

. . . the offering of sacrifice, which also shall be continued at the last time; for all the ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the Priesthood, under the directions and commandments of the Almighty in any of the dispensations, shall all be had in the last dispensation, therefore all things had under the authority of the Priesthood at any former period, shall be had again, bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the Holy Prophets; then shall the sons of Levi offer an acceptable offering to the Lord. 'And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord.' (See Malachi 3:3). ...........

 . . . those things which existed prior to Moses' day, namely, sacrifice, will be continued. (History of the Church 4:210-211).

Joseph Fielding Smith said:

Quote

Now in the nature of things, the law of sacrifice will have to be restored, or all things which were decreed by the Lord would not be restored. It will be necessary, therefore, for the sons of Levi, who offered the blood sacrifices anciently in Israel, to offer such a sacrifice again to round out and complete this ordinance in this dispensation. Sacrifice by the shedding of blood was instituted in the days of Adam and of necessity will have to be restored. 
The sacrifice of animals will be done to complete the restoration when the temple spoken of is built; at the beginning of the millennium, or in the restoration, blood sacrifices will be performed long enough to complete the fulness of the restoration in this dispensation. Afterwards sacrifice will be of some other character. (Doctrines of Salvation 3:94)

 

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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According to B. R. McConkie:

"... apparently on a one time basis (animal) sacrifices will again be offered in this dispensation."

McConkie goes on to quote Joseph as stating that the sacrifices will continue indefinitely. See Mormon Doctrine p.p. 666. (Ironic page number here I think?)

But then McConkie has been thrown under the bus so many times now he's beginning to resemble a Goodyear tire tread, so no surprise there if he was "speaking as a man".

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8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The context of that Scripture is clear and it definitely refers to animal sacrifice.  The Jews are already prepared to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem, and they know that it will include animal sacrifice.  The LDS Church will have no say in the matter, although Apostle Orson Hyde did personally dedicate the Holy Land and the Jews to the rebuilding of their temple.  That is as official as it gets.  Moreover, Joseph said:

Joseph Fielding Smith said:

 

A couple of things on this. 

1) It would definitely seem that rebuilding the Jewish temple and the sons of Levi (with the lower priesthood) performing sacrifices to the pleasing of God is imperative to the last days. So I’m in agreement there.

2) In the quotes by Joseph isn’t he also referring to the restoration of Melchizedek level sacrifices. Not just those performed by the Jews in their temple but performed by those with the higher law. He has some reference to the sacrifices the patriarchs made and that those must returns specifically saying the sacrifices of the Law of Moses will not be returning. I guess I’m a little confused. Are they the same thing? Or two separate events?

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37 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Interesting! It was a point of contention between Catholics and protestants about the true nature of the Eucharistic sacrifice. I'm glad the LDS retain at least a semblance of the Catholic understanding. It is a sacrifice made for us all, reenacted about all altars and all times across all the world. Infinite, of course, but at least offered to our finite minds.

Well, like Protestants, we see it symbolically as the body and blood, partaken in remembrance of Him rather than believing that the priests actually convert the bread to flesh and the wine to blood.  We do not believe in transubstantiation. I would say we are more Protestant on this issue really. The bread is no more His flesh than the lambs sacrificed and eaten by the Levitical priests before Yeshua - those priests just didn't typically realize their sacrifices were to commemorate one done for them by the lamb of God. Hopefully, now we do. It seems hindsight is not yet 20/20...

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