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Metis_LDS

The One Thing members do not like to talk about

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Don’t take your toys and go home.  When I first came I was accused of lying about my experiences and was dismissed regarding my observations.  It’s a tough crowd. 

Your question is actually interesting. “How does the resurrection actually work?” Obviously no one has the answer and sometimes like a parent who says “because I said so!”, people don’t like to contemplate things they can’t answer. 

In a group designed to argue, you can expect push back when starting a thread about anything.  The topic is legit! The premise that it’s The One Thing is naturally going to get pushback.  It’s a minor issue.  Stick around, no one minds and you won’t teach anyone a lesson by leaving.  It’s a fine place to learn without all the nastiness of anti Mormon bitterness of other sites. ❤️

So agree with you! I like his question, and think it was appropriate in Priesthood class! Happens all the time too. When I was active every Sunday for more than 40 years, I'd hear questions a lot more deep than that. The problem is that people might feel cog dis when some questions are concretely answered by prophets and leaders and other questions not so much. That makes it willy nilly or few and far between and getting answers from those that profess to have revelation yet can't answer the unknowns or predict dangers etc. Just select ones they want to or feel they can answer. 

I hope posters don't bow out too quickly, the board has a lot of diversity, it takes some time on the board to truly see how much there is, and so much fun to explore all of the different ideas and answers. 

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16 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

If you check my original post at the start of this thread you will see that I said             "All that I know points to God not being a magician."  I am sorry you are having a bad day, truly I am.

What did I post that suggested that I am having a bad day? 

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2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

What did I post that suggested that I am having a bad day? 

Dear Bill I was hoping to avoid this but since you asked directly I will say. Part of your post said:       Also, speaking of God the Father, though his Son, Jesus Christ, who created all things as some kind of “magician”, is an attempt to put him on the same level as some, Las Vegas act.                                                                                                                                                          Well I never said that God was a magician.  So I figured that if you misread what I said you might of been having a difficult time for unknown reasons to me.  My concern for your well being is real.

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8 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Dear Bill do not stress out everything is all right.  Yes it is 25 years ago and I was checking to see if attitudes had changed.  I was surprised to be treated here on the board as if I was at Church by more than one person.  I am now sorry that I started this thread and sorry that you got distressed over it.   I know that you have troubles of your own and wish I could fix them for you.

I am not, nor did anything I posted indicate that I was, or am, stressed out, nor upset, nor any other behavior you wish to assign to me. It was just a reply. Also, it is highly suspect that you woke up 25 yers after the fact, to gage what members of this board think, to see if things have changed. That information could and would be better gaged in your own Ward. Or other Wards,if you have moved in those 25 years. Either way, let’s leave matters of my we’ll being to professionals, should I feel I ever need to for such care. But, if you like...what troubles do you speak of, that you “wish you could fix”. 

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Just now, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I am not, nor did anything I posted indicate that I was, or am, stressed out, nor upset, nor any other behavior you wish to assign to me. It was just a reply. Also, it is highly suspect that you woke up 25 yers after the fact, to gage what members of this board think, to see if things have changed. That information could and would be better gaged in your own Ward. Or other Wards,if you have moved in those 25 years. Either way, let’s leave matters of my we’ll being to professionals, should I feel I ever need to for such care. But, if you like...what troubles do you speak of, that you “wish you could fix”. 

Okay Bill I do not know you and have never met you. I have no wish to say anything else that you may not like.

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4 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Okay Bill I do not know you and have never met you. I have no wish to say anything else that you may not like.

I have no issue with debate, after all this is what this website is for, and my response was not personal. Well, one was questionable possession, but none sought to pretend that I knew you, and spoke of “problems you have, that I wish to fix”. Simply put, you crossed the line, and made it personal, while pretending that I had mental and medical issues. Simply put, that was just bad manners. Feel free to discuss doctrinal and policy questions, those are fare game. But also know, not all will agree, and for those who disagree, it is not personal. So please continue, and I hope you have a wonderful day. 

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7 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

So an observation about this board before I go away.   If you find yourself repeating the obvious to those who disagree with you then I respectfully submit that you need a break away from this online world.  It not for your own sanity do it for the sake of the this forum as trying to force others to be as you are will drive others away from here.

As I already posted, just because people disagree with your’s or anyone’s comments is not a reason to leave. I have been here 12+ years, if I left because people disagreed with my posts or threads, I would not have lasted a month. 

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51 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

As I already posted, just because people disagree with your’s or anyone’s comments is not a reason to leave. I have been here 12+ years, if I left because people disagreed with my posts or threads, I would not have lasted a month. 

Okay Bill since you will not leave me alone,  But, if you like...what troubles do you speak of, that you “wish you could fix”.   I was referring to your thread  I find myself in disagreement with the Church’s position.    I did not read it but I felt it must be a trouble for you or else you would not of started a thread about it. I said I was sorry twice to you, Once for starting the thread and once for you having been upset by it.  You have never said SORRY for misquoting me.  Is this better is this what you like, we will fight like cats and dogs all day long if you want.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Okay Bill since you will not leave me alone,  But, if you like...what troubles do you speak of, that you “wish you could fix”.   I was referring to your thread  I find myself in disagreement with the Church’s position.    I did not read it but I felt it must be a trouble for you or else you would not of started a thread about it. I said I was sorry twice to you, Once for starting the thread and once for you having been upset by it.  You have never said SORRY for misquoting me.  Is this better is this what you like, we will fight like cats and dogs all day long if you want.

Increasing font size in bold print is tantamount to yelling. Why did you take my first reply so personally, and why do you continue to do so. We are after all, brothers in the Gospel. Right now that, “brotherhood”, seems more like the brotherhood of “Cain and Able”; why? However, we can’t fight like cats and dogs, as such behavior requires both to act in this way. For the record, I will not assume the role of, “cat or dog”. Of course I apologize, or say I am so ray for misunderstanding your comment. But even my error does not explain why you are so angry, and your threats to stop point. No one, I think would prefer that course of action. But, as I said...even a misquote is no excuse to question my “problems”, that you feel need fixing. Now, if you can fix my broken back, then left me know when you are available.  

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I like his question, and think it was appropriate in Priesthood class!

I certainly don't think it was an inappropriate question to be brought up during a priesthood lesson - especially one about the resurrection as he indicated was the case.

That being said, I also don't think it would be inappropriate for an instructor to table the discussion on the subject, as it would largely be a waste of everyone's time. 

It would be like teaching a lesson about the chapter where Christ walks on the water to meet the apostles and somebody were to ask how Christ walked on the water. Nothing wrong with asking the question. I'm sure everyone would like to know - only you can be quite confident that nobody in the class does know, and if you spend a significant amount of time discussing it then you're likely going to miss out on the much more fruitful discussion you could have had if you had gotten on to the rest of the lesson.

The avoidance then, if you want to call it that, isn't due to the lack of interest in the subject. It's just a simple cost/benefit analysis. 

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On 6/5/2019 at 11:02 AM, Metis_LDS said:

This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church.  But if you think it is feel free to say so.  So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from?  All that I know points to God not being a magician.  The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere.  Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply,  as in multiple resurrections.  So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?

There are many thing that we just do not know and will not know in this life. If God needs us to know, he will tell us, otherwise, we'll learn when we get the glorious perfected body. It would be nice to have every question answered right now - but we learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little and its not all going to happen in this life.

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4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Infinity can expand into infinity.  That is part of the nature of infinity.  Well, you know the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob".

Snowflake might not as they are not a member of the Church.

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Metis and Papa, from my reading (which may be in error since I am human still :) ) you both might be reading too much into the others' posts.  Both of you sounded like you wanted to be helpful to the other, but then something pushed a button in a later post.  It is hard to get tone and emotion  in a purely text communication...no body language or voice to supplement.

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On 6/7/2019 at 12:03 PM, Carborendum said:

This is a non sequitur. 

  • We know that it is expanding because the distance between known matter particles is expanding.  We don't know the outer limits of matter in the universe.
  • Infinity can expand into infinity.  That is part of the nature of infinity.  Well, you know the song "If You Could Hie to Kolob".

Two things never observed in nature, randomness and infinity. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Two things never observed in nature, randomness and infinity. 

Again, non-Sequitur.

So what if you can't "observe" infinity?  That speaks more to the limitations of our human abilities more than the reality of something's existence.  We haven't "observed" the outer limits of matter either.  But you seem to believe there is a limit to it.  How far away is it?  Prove it.  And beyond that, is there some limit space?  Where?  Prove it.

Reality is not defined by our limited ability to perceive things.  Otherwise too many people would be very happy believing the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.  True, you can increase technology to the point that we can observe more.  But that doesn't change reality.  It only changes our ability to perceive it.

I believe randomness is found in many facets of our observable life.  What do you mean when you say randomness is never observed in nature?

Edited by Carborendum
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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Again, non-Sequitur.

So what if you can't "observe" infinity?  That speaks more to the limitations of our human abilities more than the reality of something's existence.  We haven't "observed" the outer limits of matter either.  But you seem to believe there is a limit to it.  How far away is it?  Prove it.  And beyond that, is there some limit space?  Where?  Prove it.

Reality is not defined by our limited ability to perceive things.  Otherwise too many people would be very happy believing the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around the earth.  True, you can increase technology to the point that we can observe more.  But that doesn't change reality.  It only changes our ability to perceive it.

I believe randomness is found in many facets of our observable life.  What do you mean when you say randomness is never observed in nature?

The "big band" clearly suggests that the universe had a beginning and is not infinite, the fact that the universe is expanding also suggests that the universe is not infinite. I agree with you that proving it is something that I cannot do, maybe mathematically it is possible. 

Where is randomness found in our observable life? I was under the impression that even "random" number generators and other ideas of randomness like "random genetic mutation" are not truly random, something influences the process to make it biased. 

 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, snowflake said:

The "big band" clearly suggests that the universe had a beginning and is not infinite, the fact that the universe is expanding also suggests that the universe is not infinite. I agree with you that proving it is something that I cannot do, maybe mathematically it is possible. 

Before I get into a rebuttal, I need to emphasize that I am one who believes in many aspects of scientific theories of creation.  So, I have no problem with the big bang.  But let's take a review of where the conversation was coming from.

  1. I posited that which "has not been observed" does not prove anything.
  2. You stated agree that you cannot prove it.

So, we agree.

Your understanding what what infinite means is lacking:

Quote
  1. immeasurably great
  2. indefinitely or exceedingly great
  3. unlimited or unmeasurable in extent of space, duration of time, etc.
  4. unbounded or unlimited; boundless; endless:
  1. We cannot measure it.  So it is infinite per definition 1.
  2. We cannot define the outer limits.  So it is infinite per definition 2.
  3. Even if we assume the big bang theory is completely without exception true, it is still unlimited in its ability to expand.  It can continue to expand forever.  Or else, your claim that it is expanding is flawed.  So we can believe it is infinite by definition 3.
  4. There are not bounds to how far the universe can expand is unbounded and unlimited.  Thus, at the very least, SPACE is infinite.

The big bang has yet to be proven.  So, my original statement that "we don't know" is well founded.

Quote

Where is randomness found in our observable life? I was under the impression that even "random" number generators and other ideas of randomness like "random genetic mutation" are not truly random, something influences the process to make it biased. 

Two answers:

  1. If you believe in Deism or the scientific equivalent that all things are predestined by this enormous Rube Goldberg device that we call the universe, then I disagree.  There lies in science "the uncertainty principle."  This is the random number generator of the universe.
  2. When we casually talk about randomness, we're talking about proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern.  Just roll dice.  And that is what you will see as "observed randomness".  In mathematics we have chaos theory.  A simplification of its applicability here is that we can input something into the "chaos machine" and come up with something completely unpredicted.  So, "random" is simply that word which we used to describe something that cannot be predicted.  As far as your random number generator (i.e. -- computer generated) what you say can be true from a certain point of view.  But for all practical purposes (assuming it was created well) it is "sufficiently random".

 

Edited by Carborendum
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3 hours ago, snowflake said:

Two things never observed in nature, randomness and infinity. 

This is an interesting observation, and I wonder if you've considered why that is.

I know what MarkB would say:  Since we experience what we observe within, and our demiurgical selves seek to impose cosmos upon chaos, it is little wonder that what we experience when we observe is orderly and finite.  What else could it be?

Remember Moses experiencing just a little of G-d's creation.  When he was no longer supported by G-d, he fell to the earth, utterly spent, unable to stand.  We aren't built to experience things like the infinite.  We've got to organize them inside ourselves so that they're intelligible.  Infinity isn't intelligible to finite brains.

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

The "big band" clearly suggests that the universe had a beginning and is not infinite ...


Big band?  So, actually, Glenn Miller is the one who created the universe, huh?  Hmm.  That's interesting.  Who knew? :unknw:

;):D

 

 

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