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Metis_LDS

The One Thing members do not like to talk about

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

The reality is we don't know, just like we don't know how Spirit children are born.  There's a lot of stuff out there like this and we are exhorted to not dwell on "mysteries".

Thank you for you comment.  I agree with you about mysteries.  But if the resurrection is to be treated as a mystery why is there some much said and written about it by the Leaders starting with Joseph Smith himself.  

Edited by Metis_LDS
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1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

Thank you for you comment.  I agree with you about mysteries.  But if the resurrection is to be treated as a mystery why is there some much said and written about it by the Leaders starting with Joseph Smith himself.  

There is so much said because just knowing there is a resurrection and what that leads to gives us something to hope for and live for. Knowing the mechanics of how it happens isn't really necessary to know right now.

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5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Not as flashy as Pavarotti, but yeh.  I sang Handel's Messiah in a choir in Israel during 1967-68 (Xmas & Easter), with our final big show at the Jerusalem YMCA auditorium.  We had a Jewish chamber orchestra, and a Jewish soloist singing in Hebrew.  The Jews gave us a standing ovation, clearly valuing good music (and the Hallelujah chorus).

Here's another nice one with a Jewish orchestra outdoors along the walls of Jerusalem, accompanying Charlotte Church:  

 

I sang the Bass solos in a Farmington community Messiah sing-in several years ago. I've sung the Messiah in the chorus probably 25-30 times. Love it all.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JAHS said:

There is so much said because just knowing there is a resurrection and what that leads to gives us something to hope for and live for.

Yes of course you are right about basic preaching of the resurrection, it must be.  You do not have to dig very deeply on the internet to find past leaders talking in detail (beyond preaching the fact) about how the resurrection will be.  I would provide some links except that some of it is pretty wild.  I am already according to some beyond in this thread.  If people want to search so be it but I will not serve it on a plate.  I am not here to damage faith.

Edited by Metis_LDS
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Thank you for you comment.  I agree with you about mysteries.  But if the resurrection is to be treated as a mystery why is there some much said and written about it by the Leaders starting with Joseph Smith himself.  

I know this isn't the main topic, but 'mystery' in the scriptures doesn't mean something we can't know or aren't supposed to know; if anything, the opposite.  A mystery is meant to be revealed, line upon line.  We've lost the original meaning and function of the term and its application in our life journey.

58 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

Yes of course you are right about basic preaching of the resurrection, it must be.  You do not have to dig very deeply on the internet to find past leaders talking in detail (beyond preaching the fact) about how the resurrection will be.  I would provide some links except that some of it is pretty wild.  I am already according to some beyond in this thread.  If people want to search so be it but I will not serve it on a plate.  I am not here to damage faith.

I remember reading something from the Millennial Star where Parley P Pratt was talking about how our entire body (skin) would be able to 'see' i.e. intake light and feed that signal to the brain for interpretation.  Cool.

 

 

I really don't see resurrection or whatever body future we have as a religious topic.  It is as much 'science' as anything we else we can know.  Obviously, it is more important to love and be good and have life meaning, obviously, but that doesn't mean we haven't figured out cell phones (like prayer?) and there's no reason to shy away from a conversation about resurrection on the same basis.  It's just cool.  And we ought to know as much about our bodies as possible.

My understanding is that we will resurrect ourselves.  And our bodies at all times take the condition of the law we are living, which may be called 'telestial', 'celestial' etc, although I'm not a fan of those terms.  We take, or make, a body that works well with the world we need to be in at a given time (or have the capacity to be in at a given time).  Also there is actually very little if any reason for the body to die anyway (of old age), even in the condition we have it now.  The fact that we die under 100 years just goes to show how shabby we treat it.

The resurrection IS also a pathway template i.e. we are shown that the path we are to trod to follow the Savior includes (among other things) our crucifixion, our tomb, and our rising.  This is not really about body primarily (although body is always involved-we're always in a body, even after 'death' we are in a body for that realm), but resurrection is one aspect about life journey or rather ETERNAL LIFE journey.  So I find that this is the primary meaning of the resurrection in any case.

But I think that immortality is the way things actually work, and the fact that we have death in this realm is actually the anomaly, like how do we simulate death? since there really is no such thing? said the council of the gods in eternity before ever there was the first world established.  We have to fake it.  Because we are actually never dead, we are always ourselves and always alive--somewhere, in some body.

Edited by Maidservant
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14 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church.  But if you think it is feel free to say so.  So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from?  All that I know points to God not being a magician.  The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere.  Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply,  as in multiple resurrections.  So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?

Because you are wasting class time.

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6 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

My comment seems to being gong infinite...

It just keeps getting resurrected..

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3 hours ago, JAHS said:

There is so much said because just knowing there is a resurrection and what that leads to gives us something to hope for and live for. Knowing the mechanics of how it happens isn't really necessary to know right now.

No, but I don't think that makes it something we shouldn't discuss or that we cannot know. It's just something that may not be right for the relatively short time in a Sunday School class. It's a good or better thing for SS, not the best thing. Now at other times that is is going to be individual.

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2 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Yes of course you are right about basic preaching of the resurrection, it must be.  You do not have to dig very deeply on the internet to find past leaders talking in detail (beyond preaching the fact) about how the resurrection will be.  I would provide some links except that some of it is pretty wild.  I am already according to some beyond in this thread.  If people want to search so be it but I will not serve it on a plate.  I am not here to damage faith.

I seriously doubt it will damage faith here. I think you may be reading things wrong. Generally I am getting it is not a SS topic because we don't know much and because it is not important to the now in SS, not that it is too deep and shouldn't be discussed or damage faith.

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5 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

No they have not.  But I thought it might be a change from talking about sexuality,  and the Church leaders screwing up.

Change is good.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, USU78 said:

I sang the Bass solos in a Farmington community Messiah sing-in several years ago. I've sung the Messiah in the chorus probably 25-30 times. Love it all.

That’s wonderful! You can probably “shake” things up! 😇 I’ve played violin and viola in so many Messiahs that I can’t remember them all. The first was in Price, Utah, in 1965. Professor Lawrence Sardoni used to take some BYU orchestra kids down during Christmas break to provide an orchestra for the local production in the high school auditorium. Those miners could really belt it out! They put us up for the night and provided dinner and breakfast. Dinner was the saltiest garlicky chicken fried steak I have ever eaten. 

Now I have my own big print first violin part that I use wherever I play. Can’t see those little notes any more.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have never heard this question asked in any church setting so I don't know that it's fair to say that it's the one thing members don't like to talk about.  From my perspective it's more accurate to say it's the one thing most members have never talked about.  :D 

I don't know where perfected bodies come from and have never considered it a question that was relevant to me at this time (not that it's a bad question to wonder about, it's just not one I would personally spend any time on).  I think I probably just assume that they will come from the same stuff my nonresurrected body comes from, only in it's perfected state/form (and with no blood because I was taught somewhere that resurrected bodies don't have blood).

I am quoting this from bluebell because it got 12 likes so far,  So people feel it is not relevant at this time.  Fair enough.

Edited by Metis_LDS
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19 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church.  But if you think it is feel free to say so.  So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from?  All that I know points to God not being a magician.  The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere.  Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply,  as in multiple resurrections.  So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?

Excellent question, Metis!

I believe the resurrection is a quickening / restoration / reconstruction, recovery, refurbishment, rehabilitation, reinstatement, renewal, renovation, repatriation, revival, cure, healing, recuperation, redemption, reimbursement, rejuvenation, remedy, reparation, replacement, restitution, return, revivification, reanimation, redintegration, reinstitution, reinvigoration, remodeling - of the material our temporal mortal bodies were made of.

As to where did those temporal elements come from - the story of Adam and Eve from the KJV was equivalent to telling kids the stork brings a new baby, at least in Brigham's opinion.  

In that sense, the components of our temporal bodies that are from our Heavenly Parents are currently sleeping / dormant but will be released / activated at the time of the Resurrection 

http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=149

As for multiple resurrections - or the idea of eternal progression - this might come from exercising faith, obedience, etc. over the thousands of years in the next life.

Clearly there is a difference between an acorn and an oak tree, and so, a difference between a person who has progressed 5 years and 5,000 years in the eternities.

Pondering on these things gives me an appreciation for the idea of reincarnation for while it isn't what Adam and Eve taught, it's the closest thing to the pure doctrine eternal progression coming outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

 

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7 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

I believe the resurrection is a quickening / restoration / reconstruction, recovery, refurbishment, rehabilitation, reinstatement, renewal, renovation, repatriation, revival, cure, healing, recuperation, redemption, reimbursement, rejuvenation, remedy, reparation, replacement, restitution, return, revivification, reanimation, redintegration, reinstitution, reinvigoration, remodeling - of the material our temporal mortal bodies were made of.

Impressive list.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Excellent question, Metis!

I believe the resurrection is a quickening / restoration / reconstruction, recovery, refurbishment, rehabilitation, reinstatement, renewal, renovation, repatriation, revival, cure, healing, recuperation, redemption, reimbursement, rejuvenation, remedy, reparation, replacement, restitution, return, revivification, reanimation, redintegration, reinstitution, reinvigoration, remodeling - of the material our temporal mortal bodies were made of.

As to where did those temporal elements come from - the story of Adam and Eve from the KJV was equivalent to telling kids the stork brings a new baby, at least in Brigham's opinion.  

In that sense, the components of our temporal bodies that are from our Heavenly Parents are currently sleeping / dormant but will be released / activated at the time of the Resurrection 

http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=149

As for multiple resurrections - or the idea of eternal progression - this might come from exercising faith, obedience, etc. over the thousands of years in the next life.

Clearly there is a difference between an acorn and an oak tree, and so, a difference between a person who has progressed 5 years and 5,000 years in the eternities.

Pondering on these things gives me an appreciation for the idea of reincarnation for while it isn't what Adam and Eve taught, it's the closest thing to the pure doctrine eternal progression coming outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

 

Speaking of pondering about what happens to us when we reincarnate/resurrect, Cowboy Poet Wallace McRae actually has the most profound answer we are searching for.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Posted (edited)

While it is difficult to tell peoples ages on the board there are clues sometimes for an age range.  So I am getting the message that younger people are more willing to talk about a subject like this one.  I do not know if this is good or not but it sure is a change from my generation (over sixty).

Edited by Metis_LDS
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3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Excellent question, Metis!

I believe the resurrection is a quickening / restoration / reconstruction, recovery, refurbishment, rehabilitation, reinstatement, renewal, renovation, repatriation, revival, cure, healing, recuperation, redemption, reimbursement, rejuvenation, remedy, reparation, replacement, restitution, return, revivification, reanimation, redintegration, reinstitution, reinvigoration, remodeling - of the material our temporal mortal bodies were made of.

As to where did those temporal elements come from - the story of Adam and Eve from the KJV was equivalent to telling kids the stork brings a new baby, at least in Brigham's opinion.  

In that sense, the components of our temporal bodies that are from our Heavenly Parents are currently sleeping / dormant but will be released / activated at the time of the Resurrection 

http://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=149

As for multiple resurrections - or the idea of eternal progression - this might come from exercising faith, obedience, etc. over the thousands of years in the next life.

Clearly there is a difference between an acorn and an oak tree, and so, a difference between a person who has progressed 5 years and 5,000 years in the eternities.

Pondering on these things gives me an appreciation for the idea of reincarnation for while it isn't what Adam and Eve taught, it's the closest thing to the pure doctrine eternal progression coming outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

 

The First Presidency in and official declaration in 1909 said

Quote

Inquiries arise from time to time respecting the attitude of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints upon questions which, though not vital from a doctrinal standpoint, are closely connected with the fundamental principles of salvation. The latest inquiry of this kind that has reached us is in relation to the origin of man. It is believed that a statement of the position held by the Church upon this subject will be timely and productive of good.....

Man is the child of God, formed in the divine image and endowed with divine attributes, and even as the infant son of an earthly father and mother is capable in due time of becoming a man, so the undeveloped offspring of celestial parentage is capable, by experience through ages and aeons, of evolving into a God.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

While it is difficult to tell peoples ages on the board there are clues sometimes for an age range.  So I am getting the message that younger people are more willing to talk about a subject like this one.  I do not know if this is good or not but it sure is a change from my generation (over sixty).

Some of us are old enough to remember those stimulating High Priest group discussions about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Some of us are old enough to remember those stimulating High Priest group discussions about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin.

I defended Aquinas on that back in the 17th century. Which side were you on?

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1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

While it is difficult to tell peoples ages on the board there are clues sometimes for an age range.  So I am getting the message that younger people are more willing to talk about a subject like this one.  I do not know if this is good or not but it sure is a change from my generation (over sixty).

I have talked about it a few times. It is the kind of things missionaries talk and laugh about between doors and friends chat about when trying to figure out if they will be better looking after the resurrection. However there have been no definitive statements as to how it works so there is no point talking about it in Sunday School.

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29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I defended Aquinas on that back in the 17th century. Which side were you on?

I taught him everything he knew.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/5/2019 at 12:02 PM, Metis_LDS said:

This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church.  But if you think it is feel free to say so.  So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from?  All that I know points to God not being a magician.  The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere.  Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply,  as in multiple resurrections.  So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?

Since our mortal bodies are made up of elements of this universe, I would expect that our immortal bodies would come from the same sphere, but from elements will be given their own celestial treatment. But that is sheer speculation. Truly God is not a magician, and I have no idea how the process will work, but "That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham," (Luke 3:8) I am sure knows how to produce a perfected body and will do it.

Glenn

Edited by Glenn101
added an "I" to show that it is me, not God that has no idea how the process works.
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On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:02 AM, Metis_LDS said:

This is not about me being hard on the members of the Church.  But if you think it is feel free to say so.  So the one thing I have found radioactive to discuss in class or out of class is where will our perfected bodies come from?  All that I know points to God not being a magician.  The perfected bodies will not appear out of nowhere.  Things also seem to point to a limited capacity of supply,  as in multiple resurrections.  So the main point is why do members get excited (not in a good way) when I start to ask about where the bodies are going to come from?

I've never heard anyone ask that and it wouldn't bother me. How did God make Adam and Eve? We don't really know.

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On 6/5/2019 at 1:03 PM, Bob Crockett said:

I have never heard of this concern.

The universe and its elements are infinite.

That is incorrect, the universe is not infinite. The elements in the universe are not infinite. 

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