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Washing Feet

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

According to an older guy I knew when I was younger they took the ability to recommend people from Stake presidents because too many people could not keep their mouths shut.

If it were more generally known I could see people “campaigning” to get it like I have seen people campaign to be made a High Priest.

I believe this is true.  There is a story in Church history of some member in Idaho or Wyoming telling a bunch of people that he had his and they should get their's.  That was around the time Pres. Grant let it mostly go by the wayside.

Edited by JLHPROF

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

That's too bad since it's more directly based in your favorite the New Testament than the first endowment.

Every aspect of the second anointing is found in the NT.

I don't know what the aversion to hierarchy in the next life is.  I don't know why pass/fail is a preferable model.

The Nauvoo Endowment is kind of the wild card like you said. While there are some mild references to it there really isn't much direct mention. However the Kirtland Endowment/Anointings have very heavy Old Testament references and the fulfillment of those ordinances cultivated in Second Anointing, which has heavy New Testament descriptions.  

I to don't understand this weird aversion to hierarchy in the next life. The scriptures are replete with references to King/Priests/Arch-Angels/Seraphim/Cherubim which obviously exist as a hierarchy in the Heavens. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

It's in quite a few of the journals, though its usually rough summaries or mentions. Many accounts are also located in the Nauvoo Temple "Book of Anointings."

A good example would be when Heber C. Kimball recorded;

April the first day 1844 I Heber C Kimball received the washing of my feet, and was 
annointed by my wife Vilate fore my burial, that is my feet head Stomach. Even as Mary did Jesus, 
that She mite have a claim on him in the Resurrection in the City of Nauvoo.

(Then in Vilates habdwriting)

I Vilate Kimball do hereby certify that on the first day of April 1844 I attended to washing 
and anointing the head Stomach and feet of my dear companion Heber C Kimball, that I may 
have claim upon him in the morning of the first resurrection. Vilate Kimball (Journal of Heber C. Kimball, "Book 91", CHO; April 1, 1844; Typed w/o sic. )

I intentionally didn't post this as I think it comes close on the specific temple content prohibition.  You might want to reconsider.  At least you didn't post the words used that are in those records.

Edited by JLHPROF

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3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.

Although my honest opinion is that we as members don't generally want to meet the conditions for it.  The requirements of sacrifice and obedience that used to be attached would make most of us too uncomfortable these days.

Agreed. The common term "Abrahamic Test" might be appropriately applied to the sacrifice required, though I dislike that nomenclature because sacrifices are different between each person. However I also believe that just because the requirements are high doesn't mean it should be so heavily put the wayside and disregarded. If it was literally restored by God through Joseph and wasn't something he just created to inspire the faithful saints (which isn't necessarily wrong) then we can't disregard it's import. Many early saints made mention that it was the fulness of the priesthood and allowed the couple to have claim upon each other in the Resurrection. 

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8 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

The Nauvoo Endowment is kind of the wild card like you said. While there are some mild references to it there really isn't much direct mention. However the Kirtland Endowment/Anointings have very heavy Old Testament references and the fulfillment of those ordinances cultivated in Second Anointing, which has heavy New Testament descriptions.  . 

Actually to me the first endowment  (what you call the Nauvoo endowment) bridges the OT and NT perfectly.  Which is why it points us to Christ, the meridian himself.

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I intentionally didn't post this as I think it comes close on the specific temple content prohibition.  You might want to reconsider.  At least you didn't post the words used that are in those records.

It reveals no actual content of the Temple or ordinances contained therein that can't be derived from the scriptures. It also reveals no personal blessings or information. It's no different then explaining or affirming that I had received my first anointing, endowment, or was sealed to wife.   

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Just now, JLHPROF said:

Actually to me the first endowment  (what you call the Nauvoo endowment) bridges the OT and NT perfectly.  Which is why it points us to Christ, the meridian himself.

That makes sense, I had actually never thought of it that way. Though now that you point it out I think I'll have more to think about next time I head to the Temple. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

It's in quite a few of the journals, though its usually rough summaries or mentions. Many accounts are also located in the Nauvoo Temple "Book of Anointings."

A good example would be when Heber C. Kimball recorded;

April the first day 1844 I Heber C Kimball received the washing of my feet, and was 
annointed by my wife Vilate fore my burial, that is my feet head Stomach. Even as Mary did Jesus, 
that She mite have a claim on him
in the Resurrection in the City of Nauvoo.

(Then in Vilates habdwriting)

I Vilate Kimball do hereby certify that on the first day of April 1844 I attended to washing 
and anointing the head Stomach and feet of my dear companion Heber C Kimball, that I may 
have claim upon him in the morning of the first resurrection. Vilate Kimball (Journal of Heber C. Kimball, "Book 91", CHO; April 1, 1844; Typed w/o sic. )

That is interesting to read!

Does this hint that Mary was married to Christ? (Or at least that’s what Heber believed?)

Edited by JulieM

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9 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

That makes sense, I had actually never thought of it that way. Though now that you point it out I think I'll have more to think about next time I head to the Temple. 

Well it has a preparatory Aaronic half that in some ways mirror the OT temples.

And it has a Melchizedek eternal half that teaches us to enter God's presence (or used to) and creates eternal families.

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1 minute ago, JulieM said:

That is interesting to read!

Does this hint that Mary was married to Christ?

They didn't hint back then.  They outright said it.

Yes, if we believe Mary anointing Christ was the same as the second anointing then Mary was his wife.  (And probably Martha and Mary Magdalene too).

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3 minutes ago, JulieM said:

That is interesting to read!

Does this hint that Mary was married to Christ? (Or at least that’s what Heber believed?)

I believe so. I have no revelation on the subject but I think this among other things goes to show that Christ was married. If it's only married couples that can preform this sacred ordinance then I imagine Christ would also receive this from his spouse. Obviously I left out a lot of the actual ordinance itself and what preceded this "confirmation" signing because that would trespass the rules of this board. However it would seem that being married is in fact a real requirement and has always been whenever this ordinance has been on the earth. 

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well it has a preparatory Aaronic half that in some ways mirror the OT temples.

And it has a Melchizedek eternal half that teaches us to enter God's presence (or used to) and creates eternal families.

*Lightbulb* I think I had always had that same thought but wasn't sure how to word it or think of it. I had heard a quote somewhere from a general authority that "when I go through the endowment I seen shown to me every dispensation, prophet, and doctrine of the restoration plainly laid out." I didn't really know how he fit in ALL the prophets and dispensations but I think, even after all my studying of the subject, I'm beginning to piece it together.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That's too bad since it's more directly based in your favorite the New Testament than the first endowment.

Every aspect of the second anointing is found in the NT.

I don't know what the aversion to hierarchy in the next life is.  I don't know why pass/fail is a preferable model.

Reference please, and NT use to be my favorite during FC but now, not so sure, more man driven. That's where I'm at right now. Non trusting of men that speak for God I guess. Since they are so fallible. 

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3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

According to an older guy I knew when I was younger they took the ability to recommend people from Stake presidents because too many people could not keep their mouths shut.

If it were more generally known I could see people “campaigning” to get it like I have seen people campaign to be made a High Priest.

You beat me to the punch.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.

Although my honest opinion is that we as members don't generally want to meet the conditions for it.  The requirements of sacrifice and obedience that used to be attached would make most of us too uncomfortable these days.

I wonder if it had to do with adherence to the Law of Consecration.  Not many would be willing to enter into that covenant in the manner of the Pioneer Saints.

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17 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Reference please, and NT use to be my favorite during FC but now, not so sure, more man driven. That's where I'm at right now. Non trusting of men that speak for God I guess. Since they are so fallible. 

Well if you doubt everything man ever wrote about God I don't see how you can have any knowledge of God's character at all. You'd basically be creating God from your imagination.

As for references, I can tell you which NT scriptures relate to the second anointing but you would simply state that they don't.

Like this one:

Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

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2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I suppose that's true. However if its such an important ordinance I still don't think people running their mouths should ruin it for everyone else. The endowment is online in both video, re-enactment, and transcripts and yet the Church doesn't seem to attempt to restrict the amount of people getting their blessings. It's encouraged that young men/women seek really diligently (and for young women this is a lot more work then men) to get their Endowments and the church hierarchy has no issue with that holy desire so long as the candidates are worthy.

The very act of "campaigning" as you put it, is somewhat prideful and I would think would disqualify individuals from receiving any blessing until they were humbled. However there are righteous cases for it! Abraham says he wanted to be a greater follower of righteousness, possess greater knowledge, and be a father of nations, he wanted these things so he went to the nearest great priesthood holder and obtained it. If someone is like Abraham and has these desires and has been proven faithful then there should be an easy way to obtain these blessings as restored by Joseph. Having to wait years and years to obtain this ordinance and having no way of letting anyone know you desire it and just sort of hoping a General Authority might come by your area and ask and then hoping your name gets mentioned seems wrong. 

Then again, I'm not the Lord, so what do I know? haha

Well, when you are ready they can probably send some immortal beings to take care of it.

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2 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

I suppose that's true. However if its such an important ordinance I still don't think people running their mouths should ruin it for everyone else. The endowment is online in both video, re-enactment, and transcripts and yet the Church doesn't seem to attempt to restrict the amount of people getting their blessings. It's encouraged that young men/women seek really diligently (and for young women this is a lot more work then men) to get their Endowments and the church hierarchy has no issue with that holy desire so long as the candidates are worthy.

The very act of "campaigning" as you put it, is somewhat prideful and I would think would disqualify individuals from receiving any blessing until they were humbled. However there are righteous cases for it! Abraham says he wanted to be a greater follower of righteousness, possess greater knowledge, and be a father of nations, he wanted these things so he went to the nearest great priesthood holder and obtained it. If someone is like Abraham and has these desires and has been proven faithful then there should be an easy way to obtain these blessings as restored by Joseph. Having to wait years and years to obtain this ordinance and having no way of letting anyone know you desire it and just sort of hoping a General Authority might come by your area and ask and then hoping your name gets mentioned seems wrong. 

Then again, I'm not the Lord, so what do I know? haha

I have no doubts that God will give this ordinance to all who are ready for it.

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Just now, The Nehor said:

Well, when you are ready they can probably send some immortal beings to take care of it.

Ordinances previously restored to man can't be given by immortal beings.  Hence work for the dead.

But you knew that. 😉

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18 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I wonder if it had to do with adherence to the Law of Consecration.  Not many would be willing to enter into that covenant in the manner of the Pioneer Saints.

Can you even imagine what would happen if the Church did issue such a statement or command? I wonder what would occur. 

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Just now, The Nehor said:

I have no doubts that God will give this ordinance to all who are ready for it.

Yeah, but if no requirements are taught and the ordinance is barely acknowledged to exist how are we supposed to become ready?

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Agreed.

Although my honest opinion is that we as members don't generally want to meet the conditions for it.  The requirements of sacrifice and obedience that used to be attached would make most of us too uncomfortable these days.

I am not convinced it is easier in other generations. Most people do not want to meet those conditions and therefore do not. I know I am not ready yet to want to live that kind of life. Working on it. Sanctification is an interesting process.

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2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yeah, but if no requirements are taught and the ordinance is barely acknowledged to exist how are we supposed to become ready?

The same way we find exaltation. Revelation. The ordinance is acknowledged openly in the presentation of the endowment but most gloss over it. There are hints as to how to achieve it in the presentation too. So I think the secret to getting started is to spend time in the temple. :) 

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6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Ordinances previously restored to man can't be given by immortal beings.  Hence work for the dead.

But you knew that. 😉

I am not sure on this. Generally they are not and if there are exceptions I think this would be the one. I have seen a few great men and women (usually a pair of them) sanctify themselves and then, one day, their testimony is just different, it is much more intense. You can feel power radiating off of them. The power of godliness is manifested. I always want to ask what happened but I figure they would never tell me. I watched one of them (he was a Stake President) start almost hyperfocusing on sanctification and teaching how it is done with a great sense of urgency.

Signs and wonders follow those that believe.

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55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure on this. Generally they are not and if there are exceptions I think this would be the one. I have seen a few great men and women (usually a pair of them) sanctify themselves and then, one day, their testimony is just different, it is much more intense. You can feel power radiating off of them. The power of godliness is manifested. I always want to ask what happened but I figure they would never tell me. I watched one of them (he was a Stake President) start almost hyperfocusing on sanctification and teaching how it is done with a great sense of urgency.

Signs and wonders follow those that believe.

I would agree. Immortal beings will not usually come to administer physical ordinances if a living being has authority, thus the case of Cornelius the angel and Peter. However if the current state of the church doesn't allow, has forgotten, or has given up on certain doctrines and ordinances then I can't imagine why God would remove that blessing. Obviously we know that people receive "the more sure word of prophecy" without this ordinance so its not necessary to receive this ceremony just like being forgiven of sins doesn't necessarily require baptism. However the hands on ritual may not be given by immortal beings if mortal servants hold the authority, but God will not withhold the blessing. 

However all ceremonies must eventually take place. If we are to be Kings and Queens then we must be called up and anointed as such.

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