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Bill “Papa” Lee

I find myself in disagreement with the Church’s position, what is to be done.

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7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

You can't close it. You have to ask the mods to do it for you.  It used to be that the thread starter could do this, but they changed it for some reason.

They seem to have gone with less frill packages, possibly to cut costs, possibly to make it easier to moderate (don't have to go in and make adjustments with updates).

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47 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I understand your point, and now that I see the entire policy in context, I need to revise the thread title. All I had read was a SL Trip article which did me a disservice, as I did not know the handbooks are now on line. I know how to change the title, but not how to close the thread, as I do not want it to take us down a unfortunate fork in the road.      

I thought I should mention that while the abortion policy is in Handbook 1, it is also repeated in Handbook 2. Just go the church website and log in.  Handbook 2 is under Leader and Clerk Resources, and I believe that it can be found there if you click it.  It's in section 21, Selected Church Policies, under Policies on Moral Issues, the first item.

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1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Thank you, I have not seen it in full. I do need a have, nor have I had any copies in years. I only had them when serving as High Priest Group Leader, and while in the Bishopric. Back then they were not on line, but I assume thay are now? If I knew, I would have looked, or are you in a calling that allows you to have both books? However, almost all I posted did mention these items and conditions, or so I thought. Again, my worry is concerning those who would misunderstand these policies. But, thank you for the exact wording.  

What I posted is from Handbook 2, which quotes Handbook 1 for these policies. It is also found in Gospel Topics ("Abortion"). These are both online for public consumption. Handbook 1 is online but only approved leadership has access to it. Glad to be of help!

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Thank you, I have not seen it in full. I do need a have, nor have I had any copies in years. I only had them when serving as High Priest Group Leader, and while in the Bishopric. Back then they were not on line, but I assume thay are now? If I knew, I would have looked, or are you in a calling that allows you to have both books? However, almost all I posted did mention these items and conditions, or so I thought. Again, my worry is concerning those who would misunderstand these policies. But, thank you for the exact wording.  

 

Eyes on your own work. How a woman chooses to interpret and apply this guidance is between her, her husband (if she has one) , and the Lord.  

Edited by Ginger Snaps
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7 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

Eyes on your own work. How a woman chooses to interpret and apply this guidance is between her, her husband (if she has one) , and the Lord.  

Yes it is, but I am speaking of Church policy, and how others might view it. But, thank you for trying to put me in my place. Church policy does not override someone’s agency, but for those seeking such policy as guidance, it is fare question to ask. Or, maybe not for a father and a grandfather, right? 

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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

What I posted is from Handbook 2, which quotes Handbook 1 for these policies. It is also found in Gospel Topics ("Abortion"). These are both online for public consumption. Handbook 1 is online but only approved leadership has access to it. Glad to be of help!

You mean both are not online? 

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I thought I should mention that while the abortion policy is in Handbook 1, it is also repeated in Handbook 2. Just go the church website and log in.  Handbook 2 is under Leader and Clerk Resources, and I believe that it can be found there if you click it.  It's in section 21, Selected Church Policies, under Policies on Moral Issues, the first item.

Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, tkv said:

You raise an interesting question, worthy of a thread. Yes, what is the position of our leaders on these matters?

As pertains to this thread, how about some public statements by our leaders on radical abortion.

That might be a good thing, but Church policy, as are many covenants are, and for the members of the Church, not the public. That said, it would be wonderful for the Church to make it clear that partial birth abortion is abomination before God, and devalues the life of all human life.   

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8 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

You mean both are not online? 

Handbook 2 is online for the public, Handbook 1 can be accessed legitimately online by authorized users (bishoprics, stake presidencies, etc.).  I'm sure there are plenty of illegitimate online sources for pirated/leaked Handbook 1 as well.

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23 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Handbook 2 is online for the public, Handbook 1 can be accessed legitimately online by authorized users (bishoprics, stake presidencies, etc.).  I'm sure there are plenty of illegitimate online sources for pirated/leaked Handbook 1 as well.

Thanks, I thought they both were. I guess previous replies were confusing...not due to the posts, but my assumptions. Again, thank you friend. 

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19 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Thanks, I thought they both were. I guess previous replies were confusing...not due to the posts, but my assumptions. Again, thank you friend. 

There was a glitch last year where for a few days everyone had Handbook 1.

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Just now, The Nehor said:

There was a glitch last year where for a few days everyone had Handbook 1.

Thanks, so is it still there? I ask because I have not looked, to the less tech savvy, the new formate is taking me time to figure it out. So, I was just assuming that those who have posted found it. Is abortion in Handbook #1 or #2? 

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is not still there but the abortion policy is in both handbooks.

I personally suspect life does not begin at conception. The number of spontaneous (usually unnoticed) miscarriages makes this seem unlikely. Either that or mothers are going to find in the next life that they have many more children then they thought they did and there are a lot more children dying before accountability then we expected.

I once read something by a GA that suggested when the baby begins to move, much like John the Baptist did when Elizabeth saw Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ (don’t why I think that needed clarification), is when the Spirit enters the body. Maybe someone could find that quote, but I am completely sure it enters before birth. However, it is life very early on, but abortion is not the same as murder, Biblically speaking, as forgiveness can and is forgiven by the Church. But, it is killing in a number of ways. Sounds a lot like splitting hairs, but OT scripture gives it less weight than murdering the living, post birth.  

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I'd be interested in knowing how many people get excommunicated over abortion issues. I'd be interested in knowing what situation would warrant such an action, unrepentant attitude?

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4 hours ago, USU78 said:

Today is not forever.  Patience, I've found, is key to dealing with pronouncements that I cannot agree with, especially upon first hearing.  Sometimes it takes years.  A couple of things I've wrestled with for a very long time.

Example:  disobeying US law by overstaying work or school visas or simply ignoring the border, then stealing social security numbers and identities in order to work or obtain benefits is gross violation not of mere precatory laws, but rather of moral and ethical strictures necessary to a civil society.  I still await clarification of the Church's winking at thieves' violations of these moral and ethical strictures.

I would not put those illegal acts in the same category as that of abortions for convenience. I can remember reasons from my history books for people coming to America in the early days. There were adventurers and profiteers seeking quick riches. Then there were a lot seeking opportunities that were not available to them in their home countries. There also were a lot of people seeking freedom to practice their religion as they saw fit. And people who had lost all hope and were finally given a glimmer of hope that they could make a good life for themselves. They all came to this land and pretty much shoved the indigenous people away. Did not even ask their opinions. Of course things were different then.

And I do not believe the church is giving a wink and a nod to the thieves violation of moral and ethical structures. What I believe is the church is looking at the issue of millions of illegal immigrants here from a bit higher perch. After all, the whole land belongs to God and we all are His children.

But I digress. What was the subject again???

Glenn

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43 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I once read something by a GA that suggested when the baby begins to move, much like John the Baptist did when Elizabeth saw Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ (don’t why I think that needed clarification), is when the Spirit enters the body. Maybe someone could find that quote, but I am completely sure it enters before birth. However, it is life very early on, but abortion is not the same as murder, Biblically speaking, as forgiveness can and is forgiven by the Church. But, it is killing in a number of ways. Sounds a lot like splitting hairs, but OT scripture gives it less weight than murdering the living, post birth.  

Brigham Young once made the comment that the spirit enter when the mother feels independent life (if I remember the quote correctly. Not exactly useful at all in a medical or legal context.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Yes it is, but I am speaking of Church policy, and how others might view it. But, thank you for trying to put me in my place. Church policy does not override someone’s agency, but for those seeking such policy as guidance, it is fare question to ask. Or, maybe not for a father and a grandfather, right? 

You specifically said that you were “worried” that others might “misunderstand” the guidance. It’s really not your place or your business unless you happen to be a bishop or stake pres and one of your flock approaches you for assistance. 

As for whether it’s a fair question for a father or grandfather to be involved in how the guidance is interpreted and applied? I specifically mentioned a husband (though I should have said father—as long as it’s not a case of rape or incest or other situation where his involvement would be harmful). IMO, a grandfather would only have input if it’s a minor counseling with her parents about what to do. 

 

Edited by Ginger Snaps
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5 hours ago, USU78 said:

Today is not forever.  Patience, I've found, is key to dealing with pronouncements that I cannot agree with, especially upon first hearing.  Sometimes it takes years.  A couple of things I've wrestled with for a very long time.

Example:  disobeying US law by overstaying work or school visas or simply ignoring the border, then stealing social security numbers and identities in order to work or obtain benefits is gross violation not of mere precatory laws, but rather of moral and ethical strictures necessary to a civil society.  I still await clarification of the Church's winking at thieves' violations of these moral and ethical strictures.

Considering our colonization of Salt Lake without Mexico’s permission the church as a whole has committed “thieves’ violations of these moral and ethical strictures”. Not only that but we also sent troops to support a nation invading our host nation. We were worse migrants then the MS13 gang so many whine about.

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40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is not still there but the abortion policy is in both handbooks.

I personally suspect life does not begin at conception. The number of spontaneous (usually unnoticed) miscarriages makes this seem unlikely. Either that or mothers are going to find in the next life that they have many more children then they thought they did and there are a lot more children dying before accountability then we expected.

And that is something that the church has not issued an opinion or revelation on the subject. I have had the same thoughts as you on that subject. What will happen to women who do experience spontaneous abortions in states that have passed such restrictive abortion laws? Could they be held liable for not being careful enough, not eating the right foods, maybe for smoking, or doing something of the like that would harm a fetus?

My first wife and I were faced with a heart wrenching decision years ago which I have detailed here on this forum. We both believed that life is sacred but we did not know when life actually begins and we just could not come to a decision. I either cowardly or maybe correctly decided that it was really my wife's decision in that case and my duty was to support her whatever her decision. We were spared that decision by what I believe was a miracle, but even today I just do not know what to say, except that the words of the prophets over the ages to fast and pray are really the actual thing we should do.

Glenn

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26 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

I would not put those illegal acts in the same category as that of abortions for convenience. I can remember reasons from my history books for people coming to America in the early days. There were adventurers and profiteers seeking quick riches. Then there were a lot seeking opportunities that were not available to them in their home countries. There also were a lot of people seeking freedom to practice their religion as they saw fit. And people who had lost all hope and were finally given a glimmer of hope that they could make a good life for themselves. They all came to this land and pretty much shoved the indigenous people away. Did not even ask their opinions. Of course things were different then.

And I do not believe the church is giving a wink and a nod to the thieves violation of moral and ethical structures. What I believe is the church is looking at the issue of millions of illegal immigrants here from a bit higher perch. After all, the whole land belongs to God and we all are His children.

But I digress. What was the subject again???

Glenn

The op has requested this diversion from abortion be declared a rabbit hole. Let's honor that request.

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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Considering our colonization of Salt Lake without Mexico’s permission the church as a whole has committed “thieves’ violations of these moral and ethical strictures”. Not only that but we also sent troops to support a nation invading our host nation. We were worse migrants then the MS13 gang so many whine about.

Please honor the op's request.

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9 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

And that is something that the church has not issued an opinion or revelation on the subject. I have had the same thoughts as you on that subject. What will happen to women who do experience spontaneous abortions in states that have passed such restrictive abortion laws? Could they be held liable for not being careful enough, not eating the right foods, maybe for smoking, or doing something of the like that would harm a fetus?

My first wife and I were faced with a heart wrenching decision years ago which I have detailed here on this forum. We both believed that life is sacred but we did not know when life actually begins and we just could not come to a decision. I either cowardly or maybe correctly decided that it was really my wife's decision in that case and my duty was to support her whatever her decision. We were spared that decision by what I believe was a miracle, but even today I just do not know what to say, except that the words of the prophets over the ages to fast and pray are really the actual thing we should do.

Glenn

I was more referring to the miscarriages that happen without the woman even realizing they are pregnant. If life begins at conception those deaths are the greatest health crisis at the moment.

But yes, I do worry about some of these laws and how they could hit people who have legitimate medical complications.

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1 minute ago, USU78 said:

Please honor the op's request.

You probably shouldn’t board nanny if you start the derail.

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We know from biology when life begins. It is when a genetically unique human organism is formed.

When spirit and body are united is neither knowable nor a particularly interesting question in my view.

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