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Bill “Papa” Lee

I find myself in disagreement with the Church’s position, what is to be done.

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For years, I have supported the Church’s position on abortion. It used to only condone abortions for victims of “incest and rape”, as both can case Mother’s to continue to endure the despicable crimes perpetrated upon them. It also allowed the same, if the “life of the mother was in danger”. But even then it recommended that prayer and fasting should help inform such decisions, or so I was told. 

I understand that now it even includes the same for those whose children may be deformed, or have other serious medical issues. My oldest daughter had doctors encouraging tests for her due to age, to see if the baby had health issues. At first my daughter said no, she told the doctors that it did not matter, as she would not have an abortion. With even more pressure, she finally agreed, and the doctors found something wrong, but were not sure what. By doing so, she had months of worry, unsure if it might by “Downs Syndrome”. But, when she was born, it was not “Downs Syndromes”, but a rare cancer that my daughter had when she was young. A year later, my granddaughter Remy, had surgery to remove the melanoma, which is so rare for a newborn, they scarily have numers on other children. Today Remy is ten, top of her class, and cancer free. My daughter turns 45 on Saturday, and had two children after Remy. She had friends who tried to talk her into an abortion, but the doctors were wrong with their grim predictions. What if others have doctors trying to diagnose problems are wrong, and they are, and many of our dear sisters use this Church policy to end pregnancies of babies who will be just fine? What separates us now from many views held by pro-abortion (choice) groups, or every pro-abortion group. I have four very healthy children, one born when my wife was older, who had some friends, family and even doctors warning her against having my youngest. What is to be done, and are we moving toward a pro-choice (which is different for the doctrine of “free agency”. “Free Agency”, is about our choice that affects only our lives from a doctrinal standpoint, not the lives of the innocent. How will others use the position as a Church now, or have I been misinformed of current Church policy concerning this issue?    

I am not sure concerning the policy on a thread like this, I did not see anything that did not permit such a topic. If I am in error, please mods let me know, and I will delete. This is a big issue here in State of Georgia, as we have the new, “heartbeat law”, and most of Hollywood threatening to stop making my vies here as a result. Even though Georgia has become “little Hollywood”, and make a lot of movies here, it is a multi-billion dollar industry here, including almost all, “Marvel Movies”, and hundreds more. 

So, thoughts? 

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17 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

For years, I have supported the Church’s position on abortion. It used to only condone abortions for victims of “incest and rape”, as both can case Mother’s to continue to endure the despicable crimes perpetrated upon them. It also allowed the same, if the “life of the mother was in danger”. But even then it recommended that prayer and fasting should help inform such decisions, or so I was told. 

I understand that now it even includes the same for those whose children may be deformed, or have other serious medical issues. My oldest daughter had doctors encouraging tests for her due to age, to see if the baby had health issues. At first my daughter said no, she told the doctors that it did not matter, as she would not have an abortion. With even more pressure, she finally agreed, and the doctors found something wrong, but were not sure what. By doing so, she had months of worry, unsure if it might by “Downs Syndrome”. But, when she was born, it was not “Downs Syndromes”, but a rare cancer that my daughter had when she was young. A year later, my granddaughter Remy, had surgery to remove the melanoma, which is so rare for a newborn, they scarily have numers on other children. Today Remy is ten, top of her class, and cancer free. My daughter turns 45 on Saturday, and had two children after Remy. She had friends who tried to talk her into an abortion, but the doctors were wrong with their grim predictions. What if others have doctors trying to diagnose problems are wrong, and they are, and many of our dear sisters use this Church policy to end pregnancies of babies who will be just fine? What separates us now from many views held by pro-abortion (choice) groups, or every pro-abortion group. I have four very healthy children, one born when my wife was older, who had some friends, family and even doctors warning her against having my youngest. What is to be done, and are we moving toward a pro-choice (which is different for the doctrine of “free agency”. “Free Agency”, is about our choice that affects only our lives from a doctrinal standpoint, not the lives of the innocent. How will others use the position as a Church now, or have I been misinformed of current Church policy concerning this issue?    

I am not sure concerning the policy on a thread like this, I did not see anything that did not permit such a topic. If I am in error, please mods let me know, and I will delete. This is a big issue here in State of Georgia, as we have the new, “heartbeat law”, and most of Hollywood threatening to stop making my vies here as a result. Even though Georgia has become “little Hollywood”, and make a lot of movies here, it is a multi-billion dollar industry here, including almost all, “Marvel Movies”, and hundreds more. 

So, thoughts? 

Here is the guidance given by Handbook 2:

21.4.1

Abortion

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6). The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:

  1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.

  2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

  3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to Church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies-and-guidelines/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#title_number59

 

I'm not sure how the situation you've described above fits into this.  As I read what you've described the concern was that your grandchild may have health issues, but nothing had been determined saying that the child would not survive.  Is that right?

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I think the issue of policy is not the proper focus.  The question is, who are we and what should we become?  I'm sure Helaman and Mormon took a good many lives in their battles.  Does that make the less Christlike?  If there is a conscious and overwhelming respect for life, I don't think so.  For those very few that abort within the guidance of the church's policy, I can't see how they are any worse off if their real goal is to follow the Lord.  If I'm wrong, I am content to leave it between He and them.

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3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

From Handbook 2, bolded as relevant to your remarks:

"Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer."

Personally I see no conflict between what you are describing as your belief and the Church's policy on this moral issue (note it is not listed as a medical and health policy).

Thank you, I have not seen it in full. I do need a have, nor have I had any copies in years. I only had them when serving as High Priest Group Leader, and while in the Bishopric. Back then they were not on line, but I assume thay are now? If I knew, I would have looked, or are you in a calling that allows you to have both books? However, almost all I posted did mention these items and conditions, or so I thought. Again, my worry is concerning those who would misunderstand these policies. But, thank you for the exact wording.  

 

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10 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I too take a stronger stance on abortion than the Church does. I believe freely choosing to have an abortion is killing life, simple as that.

However, I do not believe I am at odds with the Church.  I have no set conditions for justifying an abortion, the Church only after substantial prayer, counsel allow for cases of incest, rape, or the threat to the life of the mother.

I simply see the baby from zygote to fetus as life. Killing me when I am just a lump of cells or killing me now in my adulthood, is still killing me.

As do I, but I know it is a difficult issue, which is why I tried to approach it with as much sensitivity and respect as I could. Which is why I am proud of my State for risking “Billions” in revenue to protect life. 

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Today is not forever.  Patience, I've found, is key to dealing with pronouncements that I cannot agree with, especially upon first hearing.  Sometimes it takes years.  A couple of things I've wrestled with for a very long time.

Example:  disobeying US law by overstaying work or school visas or simply ignoring the border, then stealing social security numbers and identities in order to work or obtain benefits is gross violation not of mere precatory laws, but rather of moral and ethical strictures necessary to a civil society.  I still await clarification of the Church's winking at thieves' violations of these moral and ethical strictures.

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11 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Here is the guidance given by Handbook 2:

21.4.1

Abortion

The Lord commanded, “Thou shalt not … kill, nor do anything like unto it” (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6). The Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience. Members must not submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion. The only possible exceptions are when:

  1. Pregnancy resulted from forcible rape or incest.

  2. A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy.

  3. A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.

Even these exceptions do not justify abortion automatically. Abortion is a most serious matter and should be considered only after the persons responsible have consulted with their bishops and received divine confirmation through prayer.

Church members who submit to, perform, arrange for, pay for, consent to, or encourage an abortion may be subject to Church discipline.

As far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies-and-guidelines/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#title_number59

 

I'm not sure how the situation you've described above fits into this.  As I read what you've described the concern was that your grandchild may have health issues, but nothing had been determined saying that the child would not survive.  Is that right?

Thank You, now ai have even more context. I tried to approach it with respect and dignity, I pray that my comments did so. My wife and I lost my first baby, and it took a long time to get over. That experience makes it difficult to understand those who would have any elective abortion. 

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I note that between 10 and 20 percent of all known pregnancies end in a miscarriage, the vast majority happening before 12 weeks. In other words , nature itself knows when a pregnancy will end badly for mother or child and takes action. 

I also note that a very distant relative in another country had 13 abortions as a birth control method. An abomination in my opinion.

I think the Church policy is about the best when it comes to rare exceptions. 

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3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Today is not forever.  Patience, I've found, is key to dealing with pronouncements that I cannot agree with, especially upon first hearing.  Sometimes it takes years.  A couple of things I've wrestled with for a very long time.

Example:  disobeying US law by overstaying work or school visas or simply ignoring the border, then stealing social security numbers and identities in order to work or obtain benefits is gross violation not of mere precatory laws, but rather of moral and ethical strictures necessary to a civil society.  I still await clarification of the Church's winking at thieves' violations of these moral and ethical strictures.

I understand your point, but that seems another issue for a different thread. But, I will concede that we are taught to honor and obey the law, and certain things seem to be ignored for compassionate reasons. Even in Temple recommend interviews, relating to “honest dealings with one’s fellow man”, as many Bishops and Stake Presidents know or suspect that some members are in the U.S., and other places illegally. But, if you may...let’s return to the issue of the thread; respectfully. 

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8 minutes ago, Anijen said:

If only we had more states with the courage of Georgia.

There are others here in the “Bible Belt”, as we are called. 

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

the vast majority happening before 12 weeks...nature itself knows when a pregnancy will end badly for mother or child and takes action. 

So the fact that 20% of miscarriages happen after the first trimester means what to you?

Edited by Calm
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5 minutes ago, strappinglad said:I note that between 10 and 20 percent of all known pregnancies end in a miscarriage, the vast majority happening before 12 weeks. In other words , nature itself knows when a pregnancy will end badly for mother or child and takes action. 

I also note that a very distant relative in another country had 13 abortions as a birth control method. An abomination in my opinion.

I think the Church policy is about the best when it comes to rare exceptions. 

I often had occasion to work in and around one of Atlanta in one of the busiest abortion clinics, while serving in law-enforcement. I can tell you without fail, that most know by reason of conscience, that such acts are improper, I have see so many leave in tears. Some are almost inconsolable, made worse by those carrying signs and yelling at them. 

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7 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I understand your point, but that seems another issue for a different thread. But, I will concede that we are taught to honor and obey the law, and certain things seem to be ignored for compassionate reasons. Even in Temple recommend interviews, relating to “honest dealings with one’s fellow man”, as many Bishops and Stake Presidents know or suspect that some members are in the U.S., and other places illegally. But, if you may...let’s return to the issue of the thread; respectfully. 

Gotcha.  I just picked another point that fits your OP's title.  That's all.  Wasn't trying to create a rabbit hole.

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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

So the fact that 20% of miscarriages happen after the first trimester means what to you?

As the father of one such miscarriage, to me and my wife, it had us weeping uncontrollably, barely able to drive home. Almost everything we could see, and almost every song we heard, it seemed like a dagger in our hearts. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Gotcha.  I just picked another point that fits your OP's title.  That's all.  Wasn't trying to create a rabbit hole.

I understand, no harm my friend. I think maybe I would change the thread title now that I have seen the entire policy in context. 

Edited by Bill “Papa” Lee
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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

As the father of one such miscarriage, to me and my wife, it had us weeping uncontrollably, barely able to drive home. Almost everything we could see, and almost every song we heard, it seemed like a dagger in our hearts. 

Of course.  I am wondering though how it would apply to his point given the context of his comment.

Many parents feel the same about miscarriages in the first trimester.

Edited by Calm

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

So the fact that 20% of miscarriages happen after the first trimester means what to you?

To me it means that there are legitimate reasons that nature sees will cause a bad pregnancy outcome. If  mankind has also discovered these reasons we can also act .Don't get me wrong , I have seen/ listened to descriptions of late term abortions and it turns my stomach. Would I allow a mother to bleed to death and save the baby ?? I never want to be put in that dilemma . May the Lord bless the doctor/nurse/EMT that is faced with such. 

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Just now, Calm said:

Of course.  I am wondering though how it would apply to his point given the context of his comment.

I understand your point, and now that I see the entire policy in context, I need to revise the thread title. All I had read was a SL Trip article which did me a disservice, as I did not know the handbooks are now on line. I know how to change the title, but not how to close the thread, as I do not want it to take us down a unfortunate fork in the road.      

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Handbook 1 is online, but can only be accessed by certain leaders.

I have a copy of the old version, but only because my wife's deceased husband did not pass his along to his replacement after he was last released from the calling that entitled him to a copy.  Of course there have been changes since then, but I don't think this part of it has changed.

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40 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I understand your point, and now that I see the entire policy in context, I need to revise the thread title. All I had read was a SL Trip article which did me a disservice, as I did not know the handbooks are now on line. I know how to change the title, but not how to close the thread, as I do not want it to take us down a unfortunate fork in the road.      

You can't close it. You have to ask the mods to do it for you.  It used to be that the thread starter could do this, but they changed it for some reason.

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1 hour ago, USU78 said:

Example:  disobeying US law by overstaying work or school visas or simply ignoring the border, then stealing social security numbers and identities in order to work or obtain benefits is gross violation not of mere precatory laws, but rather of moral and ethical strictures necessary to a civil society.  I still await clarification of the Church's winking at thieves' violations of these moral and ethical strictures.

You raise an interesting question, worthy of a thread. Yes, what is the position of our leaders on these matters?

As pertains to this thread, how about some public statements by our leaders on radical abortion.

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