Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
changed

The Spirit & religious diversity

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Carborendum, I don't see you around here very much, you may not know Changed's backstory. Her attitude, I believe, stems from that. And IMO, she and her family have been harmed in the extreme in the church, therefore her thread and comments. 

I know Changed from another website.  She and I have a history.

Note to the Mods.  I was not psychoanalyzing.  She has stated in other boards that she suffered from depression.  I was not using it as a bludgeon.  I really am concerned for her.  It was genuine.

If she revealed it in a public forum, I thought it was ok to repeat it on a public forum.  There was no malicious intent here.

Edited by Carborendum

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, changed said:

 

My mistake - I should not have compared it to slums.  It would be:

  • a) live on your own, no family, no god, no savior, no love - in isolation vs.
  • b) live with family, with a loving God, with the savior, surrounded by love 

Most would choose B.  It is possible to live with others while allowing others to hold their own taste in music and art, for others to hold their own taste in food and movies - you can live together while not being identical to one another.  

I do feel sad for those around the world, and I actually work with immigrants and refugees which helps me feel better.  

First, if most would choose B, then why do most in mortality spend their time in the shadows hiding from God?

I know from my own personal experience that I often hide from God out of fear and shame.  His light is painfully revealing and may cause severe discomfort in addressing issues that we may not enjoy looking at and prefer to keep in the shadows and out of sight/mind.  To step into His light takes incredible faith, discomfort, and work.  It is not for the faint of heart.  Which is why many prefer to take the easy, comfortable, instant gratification path over the more rewarding work of walking in His light.  If most would choose option B, then most on earth would be proclaiming, "here I am" as Adam did in Eden when God called for him, instead, most dull their ears to his voice and hide in the shadows, in their own carnal comforts - afraid of the consequences.  

Do you want to know what hell is?  Standing in front of God in all your shame and guilt - wishing the mountains would hide you from his presence.  No, most are comfortable standing outside of his presence, away from hi penetrating light.  Very few do the work of cleansing all guilt and shame through the atonement to stand confident in his presence.  

Second, they will still have a God and a Savior.  Their relationship with their God will probably be much like their relationship with Him in mortality.  I don't know about you, but I have never seen God and I still enjoy happiness and immense well-being in my relationship with Him.  I also don't think isolation is in the cards for those in other kingdoms.  The same sociability that exists here will exist there.  There will be friends, which I believe will form family like structures and tribes of belonging just like here. The difference is that there will be no death, disease, and physical suffering of hunger, etc. The world will be a beautiful and clean paradise.  How could one not be happy with that?   

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, pogi said:

First, if most would choose B, then why do most in mortality spend their time in the shadows hiding from God?

I know from my own personal experience that I often hide from God out of fear and shame.  His light is painfully revealing and may cause severe discomfort in addressing issues that we may not enjoy looking at and prefer to keep in the shadows and out of sight/mind.  To step into His light takes incredible faith, discomfort, and work.  It is not for the faint of heart.  Which is why many prefer to take the easy, comfortable, instant gratification path over the more rewarding work of walking in His light.  If most would choose option B, then most on earth would be proclaiming, "here I am" as Adam did in Eden when God called for him, instead, most dull their ears to his voice and hide in the shadows, in their own carnal comforts - afraid of the consequences.  

Do you want to know what hell is?  Standing in front of God in all your shame and guilt - wishing the mountains would hide you from his presence.  No, most are comfortable standing outside of his presence, away from hi penetrating light.  Very few do the work of cleansing all guilt and shame through the atonement to stand confident in his presence.  

Second, they will still have a God and a Savior.  Their relationship with their God will probably be much like their relationship with Him in mortality.  I don't know about you, but I have never seen God and I still enjoy happiness and immense well-being in my relationship with Him.  I also don't think isolation is in the cards for those in other kingdoms.  The same sociability that exists here will exist there.  There will be friends, which I believe will form family like structures and tribes of belonging just like here. The difference is that there will be no death, disease, and physical suffering of hunger, etc. The world will be a beautiful and clean paradise.  How could one not be happy with that?   

 

Change's questions reminds of the difference between wanting to be healthy, fit, and slim, and wanting to sit on the couch and eat ice cream every night.   Most overweight people want to weigh less, but they don't want it more than they want other things.  

Wanting something doesn't mean that you want to live in the way necessary to receive it.  Everything has a cost and though we might really want something, that doesn't mean we are willing to pay the cost to receive it.   It's our actions, and not our wants, that show what our treasure actually is. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Change's questions reminds of the difference between wanting to be healthy, fit, and slim, and wanting to sit on the couch and eat ice cream every night.   Most overweight people want to weigh less, but they don't want it more than they want other things.  

Wanting something doesn't mean that you want to live in the way necessary to receive it.  Everything has a cost and though we might really want something, that doesn't mean we are willing to pay the cost to receive it.   It's our actions, and not our wants, that show what our treasure actually is. 

That is perfect!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

On more than one occasion, Jesus has seen fit to correct my conscience. I'm really grateful He's willing (and able) to do that!

My conscience is a part of me, and I'm definitely flesh. 

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths."

I suppose it turns into a discussion between the Id, ego and super-ego :)

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, the light of Christ is given to all, but the greater gift of the Holy Ghost is given on conditions of faith, repentance, baptism, being given the gift by one in authority, and living in a way that the Spirit can fulfill His purposes. The former teaches men the difference between good and evil, but the latter leads the believer to exaltation. Moroni 7 makes this clear.

 

I believe those who follow their conscience are then given the Spirit.  While much of who we are is defined through our interactions with others, there is no borrowed light - no borrowed testimony - nothing that comes from any other human - we have to get there on our own, rather than relying on human "authority" figures.  Baptism is our own faith, receiving the gift of the Sprint is our own ability to receive.  Those in other faiths, other time periods - I believe a merciful and just God would not deny them the gift of the holy ghost for want of a "proper" authority figure to give that to them.  I think many people - through the merits of their own faith and their own ability to receive - their own ability to follow the light of Christ - receive all within this world.  Any other plan would not be loving, merciful, just, or in accordance with a loving God who is no respecter of persons.  

Edited by changed
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

These are all different that not teaching the truth. Paul corrected Peter in his teaching - those called of God learn truth like all of us, but they are called to be special witnesses that Jesus is the Christ and to administrate the Kingdom of God on earth. 

 

John the beloved was never adonished as far as I know... and he was also not asked to die a horrible and bloody death... Would that everyone were a prophet - we are all examples, our lives filled with examples which are good, and examples which are not so good.  Different personalities, different reactions with cause/effects for those actions.  Just because a prophet did something in the scriptures or currently does something does not mean it is right or wrong - was it right for Jonah to run away etc.?  right for Moses to break the first set of tablets?  We learn from it as we learn from anyone's lives - see consequences, and use that to shape our own decisions.  

The scriptures never say things like "The correct response to criticism is...._ the wrong response to criticism is _____________...  The scriptures seldom outline what is the right way to deal with anything or what is the "wrong" way to deal with anything - it is a story, "here is what happened - here are the consequences... what can you learn from this?  Perhaps all of the prophets who were killed and stoned are examples of how NOT to communicate with others.  Perhaps all of the examples of prophets who gently used parables and managed to communicate without making everyone angry were a better example of how to communicate?

I do not think the scriptures, or apostles, or prophets are stories or examples of "the right" way to do anything, they are just examples, just stories outlining possible consequences and cause/effect scenarios to better think things through.  

In a YM's class the girls started asking... rather controversial questions with no answers, and so I asked them "Do your good teachers at school just give you the answers?  Of course not - good teachers do not just hand the answers out to students - do not just say "this is right, that is wrong" - good teachers make you think it out for yourself - make you answer it for yourself.  I told the YW that is hat they needed to do as well - it was not our job to give them all the answers, they had to figure it out for themselves.  The scriptures and apostles are good teachers - they make us figure things out for ourselves.  

Edited by changed
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pogi said:

Just curious, do you really believe that?   I ask because that is a uniquely Latter-day Saint teaching, revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith ("the arm of flesh").  It is not a belief that you would have without a prophet.  So, in holding that belief (and probably most other beliefs you have), you have in some sense relied on mortal men/women for your beliefs.   In fact, I don't know of any other Christian faith who professes to believe in such a light which is endowed upon the consciences of all people, so I am surprised to hear you profess belief in the "light of Christ".

To make my point, can you think of a moral/spiritual/religious belief that you hold, and which you believe are from Jesus, that did not first originate from the mouth of another mortal man - that was not taught to you through writings, lesson, lecture, example, etc?  If not, then how can you say that all we need is our conscience when virtually all of your beliefs that you hold most sacred have been taught to you by other mortal men/women?  

My point is that our conscience is essential, I agree, but it primarily works to affirm or deny the teachings of other men.  Prophets are the primary source of revelation for the world.  There are true prophets and false prophets.  Our conscience (light of Christ) works to help us distinguish between the two.  The two work in concert together and are indispensable.  We all rely on the arm of flesh, but ultimately we should only trust our conscience in confirming their words or not. 

The light of Christ is not unique to the LDS faith.  I did not grow up in the LDS faith, I did grow up singing songs like "This little light of mine" and knowing about the light within all which came from God the Father and Jesus Christ his Son.

I assure you - most faiths recognize that inner light, even the secular crow recognizes it, they just call it the "Super-ego".  We are all guided by the same light, which is an amazing, and beautiful thing.

Edited by changed

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
On 6/5/2019 at 12:46 PM, bluebell said:

Change's questions reminds of the difference between wanting to be healthy, fit, and slim, and wanting to sit on the couch and eat ice cream every night.   Most overweight people want to weigh less, but they don't want it more than they want other things.  

Wanting something doesn't mean that you want to live in the way necessary to receive it.  Everything has a cost and though we might really want something, that doesn't mean we are willing to pay the cost to receive it.   It's our actions, and not our wants, that show what our treasure actually is. 

Of course, till I hit 53 or so, I could and did sit on the couch and eat ice cream every night if I felt like it, and I had minimal consequences.  It wasn't until I had unexpected consequences on the scales that I found a reason to change.  From that point on (I am 65 now), it was not a matter of going on a temporary diet or exercise program but adapting to the new reality via permanent changes of lifestyle.  And that involves an adaptive set of ongoing changes that continue until I get the results I want. My wife has a different metabolism, different health issues (things like pregnancy and endometriosis and knee replacements cannot be an issue for me, as they has been for her) , and therefore different realities to deal with.

On the one hand, Patrick Carnes observes a range in commitments that correlate directly to effort and results.

I wish things were different.

I want things to be different.

I will try to make things different.

I will do whatever it takes.

On the other hand, even, "whatever it takes" is subject to the circumstances described by the Serenity Prayer.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

My wife simply cannot do some of the things I can do.  She has never been able to eat they way I did.  And that means "whatever it takes" will not be the same for her, and subject to different constraints and costs.  So the things she cannot change is not the same as the things I cannot change.  Neither of us can "do whatever it takes" and become younger.  And the things I have had to change, doing whatever it takes, is not the same as the list of things she cannot change.  And the price we have to pay to reach a particular goal or ideal may not be the same either.  What I can do with regular walking and limiting snacking to weekends may come at the cost of bariatric surgery for someone else.

But yes, I agree that our actions do best show what our treasure actually is.  It's just happens that some one who does not know the full circumstances of what a different person can or cannot change and at what cost, is not always the same.  There is a price to pay for the things that I want most that includes some other things I want.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited by Kevin Christensen
a redundancy
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, california boy said:

I am interested in this whole born into the gospel due topremortal worthiness.  What do you think someone did in the premortal life to be worthy to be born into a home of a crackhead mother and criminal father?

As I said it applies in some cases but not others. My patriarchal blessing goes into a little detail about why I was born where I am and it sounded flattering at first but reading it with wisdom now it looks like some of my circumstances are a crutch due to my weakness.

I do not know why some are born to misery. I could claim they were all not valiant but I have no reason to believe that. For some it may teach some vital lesson or give them strength to do some deed or live some life that will enable them to bless others. Maybe based on premortal worthiness I am not worthy to loose their shoe latchet. I do believe God is able to create beauty in the end from horror and that Christ will correct and compensate all this injustice and raise many from horrific circumstances to glory. Being chosen is also not that big an advantage. Being part of Israel seems great until you read the history of the House of Israel and realize that God is often harder on them. I don’t envy the history of the Jews or the Native Americans. Suffering is the norm. The one Son who did no wrong got it the worst.

I take comfort in words of my past glories in premortality but know that they are likely to be met in this life with adversity and try to adopt the wisdom of Gandalf when dealing with problems:

i-wish-it-need-not-have-happened-in-my-t

And also know that God does judge on degree of difficulty.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, changed said:

The light of Christ is not unique to the LDS faith.  I did not grow up in the LDS faith, I did grow up singing songs like "This little light of mine" and knowing about the light within all which came from God the Father and Jesus Christ his Son.

I assure you - most faiths recognize that inner light, even the secular crow recognizes it, they just call it the "Super-ego".  We are all guided by the same light, which is an amazing, and beautiful thing.

I agree that it is amazing and beautiful.  I am happy to be corrected that "most faiths" believe in this inner light.  I suppose my interaction on here with sola-sciptura preachers has led me to believe otherwise.  They have all told me to not trust my heart and conscience because it is "deceitful above all things" and that the Bible is the only authority we should follow. 

Either way, your understanding and belief in this light as being from God came from the teachings of men. 

I would also point out that most Christians who do profess a belief in this light, still rely on mortal man for learning and spiritual growth.  They look to the writings of the prophets and spiritual leaders who wrote their creeds etc.  I don't know of any Christians to speak of who entirely cut of their reliance on other people for spiritual understanding as you suggest we should do. 

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You're saying that as if I'm somehow deficient because of that.  Do you have proof otherwise?

Understand that the OP (which I was responding to) was entirely an argument about characterization, not literal reality.  So, I responded with a different characterization of the same things.  And she had no "proof" of any of her characterization either. Just her opinion to the point I wouldn't even call it a belief (but... semantics).

Ok, just saw this:

I'm not claiming the sure word of prophecy on this.  I am just often amazed at how some people make such rash decisions based not on reality, but on perspective or characterizations.  I was trying to offer a different perspective/characterization of the three degrees of glory that would render quite a different decision and attitude.

And I certainly do believe my interpretation to be perfectly "acceptable" given the revealed word of God that we have.

Her idea that "I can't enjoy the CK while even one person is in a lower kingdom" is akin to saying "just because one person jumps off a cliff, I must jump off the cliff as well."  What kind of sense does that make?

Well, there is this.....

Quote

Mosiah 28: 

1 Now it came to pass that after the sons of Mosiah had done all these things, they took a small number with them and returned to their father, the king, and desired of him that he would grant unto them that they might, with these whom they had selected, go up to the land of Nephii that they might preach the things which they had heard, and that they might impart the word of God to their brethren, the Lamanites—

2 That perhaps they might bring them to the knowledge of the Lord their God, and convince them of the iniquity of their fathers; and that perhaps they might cure them of their hatred towards the Nephites, that they might also be brought to rejoice in the Lord their God, that they might become friendly to one another, and that there should be no more contentions in all the land which the Lord their God had given them.

3 Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should  perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble.

And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever.

We also know that we are free to choose and will be accountable for the choices we make. Thankfully, God will judge our capabilities to exercise our agency and will temper his judgement with mercy.

Edited by Bernard Gui

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Of course, till I hit 53 or so, I could and did sit on the couch and each ice cream every night if I felt like it, and I had minimal consequences.  It wasn't until I had unexpected consequences on the scales that I did not expect, that I found a reason to change.  From that point on (I am 65 now), it was not a matter of going on a temporary diet or exercise program but adapting to the new reality via permanent changes of lifestyle.  And that involves an adaptive set of ongoing changes that continue until I get the results I want. My wife has a different metabolism, different health issues (things like pregnancy and endometriosis and knee replacements cannot be an issue for me, as they has been for her) , and therefore different realities to deal with.

On the one hand, Patrick Carnes observes a range in commitments that correlate directly to effort and results.

I wish things were different.

I want things to be different.

I will try to make things different.

I will do whatever it takes.

On the other hand, even, "whatever it takes" is subject to the circumstances described by the Serenity Prayer.

"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

My wife simply cannot do some of the things I can do.  She has never been able to eat they way I did.  And that means "whatever it takes" will not be the same for her, and subject to different constraints and costs.  So the things she cannot change is not the same as the things I cannot change.  Neither of us can "do whatever it takes" and become younger.  And the things I have had to change, doing whatever it takes, is not the same as the list of things she cannot change.  And the price we have to pay to reach a particular goal or ideal may not be the same either.  What I can do with regular walking and limiting snacking to weekends may come at the cost of bariatric surgery for someone else.

But yes, I agree that our actions do best show what our treasure actually is.  It's just happens that some one who does not know the full circumstances of what a different person can or cannot change and at what cost, is not always the same.  There is a price to pay for the things that I want most that includes some other things I want.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Please make some bad posts so I don't have to like every single one. I am getting tired hitting that button .

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, changed said:

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths."

One of my top faves in the scriptures!

Quote

I suppose it turns into a discussion between the Id, ego and super-ego :)

All concepts that I have literally zero personal evidence for.

In contrast, I have in many ways and on many occasions engaged in genuine dialogue with the Lord.

I prefer that over having an internal chat with fancy-named versions of myself. To each her/his own, I reckon.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that it is amazing and beautiful.  I am happy to be corrected that "most faiths" believe in this inner light.  I suppose my interaction on here with sola-sciptura preachers has led me to believe otherwise.  They have all told me to not trust my heart and conscience because it is "deceitful above all things" and that the Bible is the only authority we should follow. 

Either way, your understanding and belief in this light as being from God came from the teachings of men. 

I would also point out that most Christians who do profess a belief in this light, still rely on mortal man for learning and spiritual growth.  They look to the writings of the prophets and spiritual leaders who wrote their creeds etc.  I don't know of any Christians to speak of who entirely cut of their reliance on other people for spiritual understanding as you suggest we should do. 

 

The identification of an inner light is not a teaching of men - it is something that actually exists, has been recognized by many cultures and many different groups. You can find it within yourself.  

The Perry model, Fowler, etc. They all start with dualistic views and reliance on authority, it is not until the upper stages that uncertainty is embraced, authority figures are viewed as being imperfect (take some, leave some), and decisions are made through personal research using multiple sources, combined with their own personal inner light.  It is a combination of everything - as all good research is.  Use multiple references, from multiple sources - know everyone is a blind mouse describing an elephant, follow your conscience to make sense of it all.  The imperfect nature of all leaves room for personally being able to listen to that inner light and develop a personal testimony, fill your lamp with oil.  If there were a perfect leader to follow, no one would have to think or act for themselves - we could all just follow the leader.  

We all start out following leaders, by the end we come to our own personal testimony that is independent of any single leader except the Godhead.

Here is another quote - thich nhat hanh, from book "your true home" #11 ..."You have God within you, so you do not have to look for God."  

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of my top faves in the scriptures!

All concepts that I have literally zero personal evidence for.

In contrast, I have in many ways and on many occasions engaged in genuine dialogue with the Lord.

I prefer that over having an internal chat with fancy-named versions of myself. To each her/his own, I reckon.

 

On fast Sunday, you experience no struggle between the natural man wanting food, and the superego seeking to fast?  There is nothing you need self-control over, everything comes without a fight, without self-control, without temptation for you?  No angel on one shoulder, and devil on the other?  Wow... wish I could say that ;)

Edited by changed

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, changed said:

On fast Sunday, you experience no struggle between the natural man wanting food, and the superego seeking to fast?

Not anymore. Some years ago, when I was serving as my ward's Young Men president, I was in the temple praying for my boys. I asked Heavenly Father what more I could do for them. I told him that I would 'do anything'.

The answer came in a clear voice: 'You could fast for them'.

I pointed out that I already fasted for them every month.

'You could fast for them every week'.

I was appalled at this suggestion and started to argue against it.

'I thought you said you would do anything'.

So I started fasting every week. I was released from that callling and called to serve in the bishopric (with Young Men responsibilities) in 2012. I was relased from the bishopric and called to serve as ward mission leader 18 months later. But I've never felt that that personal request has been rescinded, so I've continued to fast for my boys every week for more than a decade. I no longer have any interest in food when I fast, though I do sometimes get thirsty, especially when it's really hot.

Quote

There is nothing you need self-control over, everything comes without a fight, without self-control, without temptation for you?

Oh, I face all kinds of temptations. And I wrestle with myself on many occasions. But there is a whole world of difference between arguing within myself and hearing the voice of God correct and guide me.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
19 minutes ago, changed said:

 

On fast Sunday, you experience no struggle between the natural man wanting food, and the superego seeking to fast?  There is nothing you need self-control over, everything comes without a fight, without self-control, without temptation for you?  No angel on one shoulder, and devil on the other?  Wow... wish I could say that ;)

It is a misunderstanding of Freud to characterize the superego as the angel on one shoulder and the id as the devil on the other. Freud’s ideas about this aren’t really accepted anymore in psychology anyway.  But back to his ideas. He did argue that the id has its place. We do need to survive, after all. And the superego can become a neurosis — overwhelming guilt and shame, the inability to function as an individual free from parental and societal control, etc. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, changed said:

 

The identification of an inner light is not a teaching of men - it is something that actually exists, has been recognized by many cultures and many different groups. You can find it within yourself.  

The Perry model, Fowler, etc. They all start with dualistic views and reliance on authority, it is not until the upper stages that uncertainty is embraced, authority figures are viewed as being imperfect (take some, leave some), and decisions are made through personal research using multiple sources, combined with their own personal inner light.  It is a combination of everything - as all good research is.  Use multiple references, from multiple sources - know everyone is a blind mouse describing an elephant, follow your conscience to make sense of it all.  The imperfect nature of all leaves room for personally being able to listen to that inner light and develop a personal testimony, fill your lamp with oil.  If there were a perfect leader to follow, no one would have to think or act for themselves - we could all just follow the leader.  

We all start out following leaders, by the end we come to our own personal testimony that is independent of any single leader except the Godhead.

Here is another quote - thich nhat hanh, from book "your true home" #11 ..."You have God within you, so you do not have to look for God."  

I don't get it.

I agree with every word, so why are you knocking the church?

Moroni 10, James 1, Alma 32, and a dozen others say exactly this, Perry says this, Joseph Smith says this-- why don't you see that?

Why put yourself with the dualists and simple "Mormons just believe" crowd while you espouse this??

 

Edited by mfbukowski
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, The Nehor said:

As I said it applies in some cases but not others. My patriarchal blessing goes into a little detail about why I was born where I am and it sounded flattering at first but reading it with wisdom now it looks like some of my circumstances are a crutch due to my weakness.

I do not know why some are born to misery. I could claim they were all not valiant but I have no reason to believe that. For some it may teach some vital lesson or give them strength to do some deed or live some life that will enable them to bless others. Maybe based on premortal worthiness I am not worthy to loose their shoe latchet. I do believe God is able to create beauty in the end from horror and that Christ will correct and compensate all this injustice and raise many from horrific circumstances to glory. Being chosen is also not that big an advantage. Being part of Israel seems great until you read the history of the House of Israel and realize that God is often harder on them. I don’t envy the history of the Jews or the Native Americans. Suffering is the norm. The one Son who did no wrong got it the worst.

I take comfort in words of my past glories in premortality but know that they are likely to be met in this life with adversity and try to adopt the wisdom of Gandalf when dealing with problems:

i-wish-it-need-not-have-happened-in-my-t

And also know that God does judge on degree of difficulty.

Thanks.  I appreciate you sharing your perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Well, there is this.....

We also know that we are free to choose and will be accountable for the choices we make. Thankfully, God will judge our capabilities to exercise our agency and will temper his judgement with mercy.

Nice.  But you know that was the reverse of what Changed was saying.

  • Your quote was about wanting to bring others to Christ to help them avoid endless torment.
  • Changed was throwing a tantrum saying,"If God is going to punish others for their evil choices, then I'm going to reject God, so he'll have to punish me as well."
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Nice.  But you know that was the reverse of what Changed was saying.

  • Your quote was about wanting to bring others to Christ to help them avoid endless torment.
  • Changed was throwing a tantrum saying,"If God is going to punish others for their evil choices, then I'm going to reject God, so he'll have to punish me as well."

I understand that. I'm not agreeing with Changed, but simply pointing out that it is legitimate to have concern for the salvation of others. The concern felt by the Sons of Mosiah caused them great anguish and motivated them to do extraordinarily difficult things. I wish I had just a particle of their concern and sense of urgency and sacrifice. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
11 hours ago, changed said:

The identification of an inner light is not a teaching of men - it is something that actually exists, has been recognized by many cultures and many different groups. You can find it within yourself.  

The identification of this inner light as an actual power and influence that emanates from God and fills the hearts of all men is not something that has been identified and recognized as something that "actually exists" by the scientific community.  You suggest that the secularists recognize the superego, however, their interpretation of that experience is quite different from yours.  They attribute the superego to  the influences of your upbringing, i.e. the teachings of men, and not some power/influence from God.  The understanding of the experience is based entirely upon what you have been taught about it by others.  You are absolutely dependent upon prophets for your spiritual understanding.  All Christian interpretations of this influence point to the prophetic writings of the Bible (John 1:9, etc.)  We need to give credit where credit is due.  If you are a Christian, your beliefs are primarily the result of prophetic teachings and from the teachings of other spiritual leaders.  My point simply being that yes, even you rely on the arm of flesh for your understanding.  There is no avoiding it. 

11 hours ago, changed said:

The Perry model, Fowler, etc. They all start with dualistic views and reliance on authority, it is not until the upper stages that uncertainty is embraced, authority figures are viewed as being imperfect (take some, leave some), and decisions are made through personal research using multiple sources, combined with their own personal inner light.  It is a combination of everything - as all good research is.  Use multiple references, from multiple sources - know everyone is a blind mouse describing an elephant, follow your conscience to make sense of it all.  The imperfect nature of all leaves room for personally being able to listen to that inner light and develop a personal testimony, fill your lamp with oil.  If there were a perfect leader to follow, no one would have to think or act for themselves - we could all just follow the leader.  

I really like what you say here and agree.  But ultimately you are still looking to other men/women ("multiple sources") for influence.  You are not really saying anything different that what I have suggested.  We need the teachings of leaders (arm of flesh), and we need the light to decipher for ourselves what we will believe.  As I said before, they work in concert. 

Quote

We all start out following leaders, by the end we come to our own personal testimony that is independent of any single leader except the Godhead.

I would hesitate to say that any personal testimony is entirely independent of any leader except the Godhead.  My testimony, as it is, would not exist without prophets and other sources.  My testimony in most areas is dependent upon the teaching of other men.  I have very few original ideas that I have a testimony of.  Our leaders job is to guide us to personal testimony, therefore we are indebted to them and rely on them for it.   

We shouldn't cut off the hand that feeds us and take all credit for our own spiritual wisdom and testimony.   We need to recognize that we primarily believe what we believe because a man or woman taught it to us.

Quote

Here is another quote - thich nhat hanh, from book "your true home" #11 ..."You have God within you, so you do not have to look for God."

I love that.  I am glad that a man taught it to me ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I understand that. I'm not agreeing with Changed, but simply pointing out that it is legitimate to have concern for the salvation of others. The concern felt by the Sons of Mosiah caused them great anguish and motivated them to do extraordinarily difficult things. I wish I had just a particle of their concern and sense of urgency and sacrifice. 

I guess we agree then.  But from context, it seemed you were trying to correct me when I never said anything contrary to this sentiment you've provided. I even paralleled it with my point about having a child commit suicide.  

Edited by Carborendum

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, pogi said:

The identification of this inner light as an actual power and influence that emanates from God and fills the hearts of all men is not something that has been identified and recognized as something that "actually exists" by the scientific community.  You suggest that the secularists recognize the superego, however, their interpretation of that experience is quite different from yours.  They attribute the superego to  the influences of your upbringing, i.e. the teachings of men, and not some power/influence from God.  The understanding of the experience is based entirely upon what you have been taught about it by others.  You are absolutely dependent upon prophets for your spiritual understanding.  All Christian interpretations of this influence point to the prophetic writings of the Bible (John 1:9, etc.)  We need to give credit where credit is due.  If you are a Christian, your beliefs are primarily the result of prophetic teachings and from the teachings of other spiritual leaders.  My point simply being that yes, even you rely on the arm of flesh for your understanding.  There is no avoiding it. 

An interesting video from noted atheism promoter Christopher Hitchens

https://youtu.be/WQgbi56FFZY

Yet of course he contradicts himself.  He sees God within and then denies it.  Odd.

Of course as you know, Freud just made his own religion out of new names for old ideas, the "id" being "Satan", the superego "the spirit" and ego as the natural man.

Nice sounding, semi-scientific names that make it sound like they are more than absolute pokes in the dark that today's therapists largely reject

 

Edited by mfbukowski

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...