Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
changed

The Spirit & religious diversity

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, changed said:

Jesus was the only one who was more than a man, who was perfect, whose words could be trusted.

But his words come to us through other men.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Calm said:

What is any idea about the afterlife, that there is even an afterlife but a belief?

What is your point therefore?

While I may have misinterpreted, it felt like he was so sure of what he was saying. Usually people will admit to not knowing for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, changed said:

Those who choose hell chose it???  Most people who are trouble makers are victims.  Easy to blame the victim... easier to blame them than to help them.   

Spirit Prison (a better term would be Spirit school or rehab imo) is not hell, hell is for those who are given a full chance refuse to take it.  No one is blaming victims because victims will be cared for and healed and loved.  We are all victims in some fashion and to deny the opportunity to heal to anyone would be self destructive.

So yes, those in hell in the afterlife choose it.

I really don't understand where you are getting most of your ideas about the doctrine of the afterlife according to the Church.  There are so many of your interpretations that appear contrary to what I was taught and read.

Edited by Calm
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Dup

Edited by Calm

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, changed said:

I agree - looking around, everyone is on a different path.  Even within the Mormon church, everyone has lived a different life, and holds a few unique beliefs based on their unique experiences.  Diversity is the spice of life.  The loving approach is to believe everyone will make it, to agree that a fullness of joy equates to being together forever with everyone.  

 

OneWay.JPG

That image is kind of funny considering that most of the breeds of rabbits are actually man-made through selective breeding.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, webbles said:

That image is kind of funny considering that most of the breeds of rabbits are actually man-made through selective breeding.

Haha - too funny.  The point is, each snowflake, each tree, each leaf on each tree, each person is unique.  I use nature as an example of what God creates, and things you find in a store as an example of what mankind creates.  Nature does not really exactly duplicate itself anywhere.  It makes sense to me that the God of this world would be a God who loves and supports diversity - because that is what we have, so that must be what a loving God designed it to be.  

Edited by changed

Share this post


Link to post
48 minutes ago, Calm said:

But his words come to us through other men.

 

Jesus words come to us through our conscience - the light of Christ, which is given to us all.  No one needs to rely on any arms of flesh, we only need to rely on our own conscience.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, changed said:

Jesus words come to us through our conscience ...

On more than one occasion, Jesus has seen fit to correct my conscience. I'm really grateful He's willing (and able) to do that!

Quote

No one needs to rely on any arms of flesh, we only need to rely on our own conscience.

My conscience is a part of me, and I'm definitely flesh. 

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, pogi said:

Why can't people be happy in the slums?

I served my mission in the Philippines.   Many slums there. The "wealthy" I visited in the Philippines would be considered poor here.  Despite the vast gulf between our standard of living and theirs, I have never met a happier people.  Perhaps you are confusing happiness with affluence.

It is not about not wanting to live with others or wishing the best for them.  It is about allowing others to choose their own path.  I can love those who chose different paths than me, even if it leads to a lower standard of living, can't you?

You are making your happiness entirely codependent on the choices and outcomes of others - something you have no control over.  I would simply suggest that there are healthier ways to live.  

Can you be happy in our relative abundance we enjoy in America while others suffer in more desperate conditions around the world?  I feel sorry for you if you cannot.  

 

My mistake - I should not have compared it to slums.  It would be:

  • a) live on your own, no family, no god, no savior, no love - in isolation vs.
  • b) live with family, with a loving God, with the savior, surrounded by love 

Most would choose B.  It is possible to live with others while allowing others to hold their own taste in music and art, for others to hold their own taste in food and movies - you can live together while not being identical to one another.  

I do feel sad for those around the world, and I actually work with immigrants and refugees which helps me feel better.  

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, changed said:

make it to the celestial kingdom

The 'celestial kingdom' is a code word or device that covers a lot of reality (that I no longer think is served by the term).  I personally do not like the term because it no longer explains a thing and is a barrier to understanding (in my opinion) and isn't really in the scriptures at least to the degree we use it now.

The current way that I most often hear the phrasing used these days about our eternal destiny is "return to our Father in heaven".  I'm not actually a fan of those terms either, although I can understand why it might be chosen; I'm not a fan for a few reasons, but one of them being that (per Joseph Smith) our destiny as humanity remains on this earth (made celestial)--we are not leaving for anywhere; and secondly that it's not really scriptural either.  Other reasons if I went on.

Nevertheless.

The celestial kingdom is not given; it is made.  Like the 'make home a heaven' idea.

The celestial kingdom is not a place and not a 'capitalist heaven' i.e. with the best toys.

The celestial kingdom describes the condition of a person and a body--those that become and overcome.  And what do they overcome?

All kinds of ****.  All the **** that there is.

The celestial kingdom are those who have come into union--one heart, one mind.  Who see as they are seen.  Union is not sameness.  In fact, those who are the 'same' (as if that could ever be) would never have any idea what union is.  Union is the union of those who are very different, but know how to keep room for each other and look at each other without beams in their eyes.

The 'celestial kingdom' will reveal itself organically in real time on this earth, will emerge as a consequence of: as people become clean and forgive each other and minister to one another as themselves; as well will have no reason for disease or death in the body.  As people stop the shedding of blood.

This transformation is already taking place and many people are already part of this covenant of peace.

I already consider that I am in 'my' celestial kingdom, because there is no where else I'd rather be.  Even if I got all 'my toys' (i.e. endless library and time to read it), I would not last long.  I would say, "Send me back.  Send me where I'm most needed.  Let me learn.  Let me love.  Let me give birth again."  So I'd end up down and out in some mortal probation ha ha ha in my best eternity.

Kind of like now ;).

Edited by Maidservant
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, changed said:

Jesus words come to us through our conscience - the light of Christ, which is given to us all.  No one needs to rely on any arms of flesh, we only need to rely on our own conscience.

Yes, the light of Christ is given to all, but the greater gift of the Holy Ghost is given on conditions of faith, repentance, baptism, being given the gift by one in authority, and living in a way that the Spirit can fulfill His purposes. The former teaches men the difference between good and evil, but the latter leads the believer to exaltation. Moroni 7 makes this clear.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

The 'celestial kingdom' is a code word or device that covers a lot of reality (that I no longer think is served by the term).  I personally do not like the term because it no longer explains a thing and is a barrier to understanding (in my opinion) and isn't really in the scriptures at least to the degree we use it now.

The current way that I most often hear the phrasing used these days about our eternal destiny is "return to our Father in heaven".  I'm not actually a fan of those terms either, although I can understand why it might be chosen; I'm not a fan for a few reasons, but one of them being that (per Joseph Smith) our destiny as humanity remains on this earth (made celestial)--we are not leaving for anywhere; and secondly that it's not really scriptural either.  Other reasons if I went on.

Nevertheless.

The celestial kingdom is not given; it is made.  Like the 'make home a heaven' idea.

The celestial kingdom is not a place and not a 'capitalist heaven' i.e. with the best toys.

The celestial kingdom describes the condition of a person and a body--those that become and overcome.  And what do they overcome?

All kinds of ****.  All the **** that there is.

The celestial kingdom are those who have come into union--one heart, one mind.  Who see as they are seen.  Union is not sameness.  In fact, those who are the 'same' (as if that could ever be) would never have any idea what union is.  Union is the union of those who are very different, but know how to keep room for each other and look at each other without beams in their eyes.

The 'celestial kingdom' will reveal itself organically in real time on this earth, will emerge as a consequence of: as people become clean and forgive each other and minister to one another as themselves; as well will have no reason for disease or death in the body.  As people stop the shedding of blood.

This transformation is already taking place and many people are already part of this covenant of peace.

I already consider that I am in 'my' celestial kingdom, because there is no where else I'd rather be.  Even if I got all 'my toys' (i.e. endless library and time to read it), I would not last long.  I would say, "Send me back.  Send me where I'm most needed.  Let me learn.  Let me love.  Let me give birth again."  So I'd end up down and out in some mortal probation ha ha ha in my best eternity.

Kind of like now ;).

I cringe when I hear the phrase "make it to the Celestial Kingdom." 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)

Never mind 

I apologize for being uncharitable 

Edited by mfbukowski

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, changed said:

Do you believe God only works with one group of people? ...Do you believe everyone will make it to the celestial kingdom?

 

I do believe God works with many groups of people. However God does not have a mental disorder where he seeks to build on organization while helping other organizations tear the organization he is building down.  IT would be sort of like Bill Gates actively building up Microsoft while he has a side job that support organizations that go out and sue Microsoft and try to break it up. 

If everyone makes it the Celestial Kingdom, why would the other kingdoms exist?  They have to be inhabited by somebody.

 

Edited by carbon dioxide

Share this post


Link to post
32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Here is how God views his creation according to the Book of Mormon....
 

Nevertheless, there is only one way to heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. Speaking from his own experience, Alma said, 

We will all bow not out of fear but in awe and gratitude for the love he has for us. 
 

I found all the ones I knew, and you found even more! Nice!

Share this post


Link to post
16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I view other faiths as potentially bringing others to Terrestrial glory or prepping them for exaltation. God works with everyone. Some people were born into the gospel due to premortal worthiness but we have no way to judge that in the aggregate. Many of the strongest people I know are converts. God does not respect persons but he does respect attempts at righteousness. I do not believe everyone will reach celestial glory. Of course I do not want to live with some others, some people are awful. As an introvert yes, I often like being separa ted from others.

That sounds noble but think through what you are saying. Those who choose hell chose it. Anyone who sincerely wants and seeks happiness will find it. Your approach allows any wicked person to ruin paradise for everyone because they refuse to be happy unless it is on their terms. You are giving hell an absolute veto over heaven and the ability to destroy the happiness of others. We see this in mortality too when we have to sever or limit relationships due to the toxic nature of some people and how they do nothing but spread misery. Your idea of heaven is crying forever that they are getting exactly what they sought?

 

I am interested in this whole born into the gospel due topremortal worthiness.  What do you think someone did in the premortal life to be worthy to be born into a home of a crackhead mother and criminal father?

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

While I agree with you and others about how we end up where we ¨fit¨ or have chosen and think it is an important truth that changed´s view seems to need reminding of, in Mormonism, there is definitely a significant aspect of ¨reward¨. While the Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial are places where one can have ¨careers¨ as you put it, there are absolute limits on whether or not you interact with Jesus (the Terrestrial Limit) and Heavenly Father (the Celestial Limit).

It is true that there is certainly a "reward" aspect of it.  But it conjures up the image of Santa Claus opening up his bag and handing out whatever he chooses to whomever he chooses.  

Instead, it is important to remember that wherever we go is what we choose for ourselves.  By our actions, our faith, our state of mind, our attitudes, all of it... we choose a final destination.  God's judgment is not arbitrary.  He gives us what we've chosen in our hearts, minds, actions.  With everything that is part of us, we have chosen our end. 

Further, we all know that we do not "earn" anything in Eternity.  It is all because of Christ.  How does one get a reward if we haven't earned it?  So, this concept of a "reward" is not accurate.  It is only a "result".

Quote

While there are other LDS definitions of damnation, this is the damnation that so many non-LDS care about - whether they live with God forever or not. How many sincere and devout non-LDS Christians will end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom forever banished by Heavenly Father? What comfort is there in the material of Terrestrial Kingdom that can make up for the eternal loss of the Father? Does it make such a difference between Outer Darkness and the Terrestrial Kingdom?

I'm not saying there are not some absolute terms involved.  There certainly are.  It would certainly be better to have the wealth of a doctor than the wealth of a store clerk.  But there's more to it than that isn't there?  And that was my point in the analogy I made.

Quote

It would seem many assumptions about how ¨they must not really have wanted Heavenly Father (at all)¨ would have to be made.

I disagree with the wording.  But I kinda see what you're trying to say.  Yes, we choose what we really want.  How can that even be questioned?  There are always priorities in our desires.  A single given moment may be an outlier.  But a pattern of behavior over a lifetime is going to be indicative of what we really wanted. (conditions apply).

Quote

Some talk about how the beauty and pleasures of each kingdom are derivatives of Heavenly Father, while technically true, would be certainly lacking. In a similar vein, some talk about Jesus being some level of Heavenly Father, while a better ¨portion¨, leads to some disturbing issues - not least of which would be the objectifying of Heavenly Father, that he is exchangeable.]

I don't know how you got that "objectifying".  And I'm not sure how you got the idea that each kingdom is a "derivative" of Heavenly Father.  You may need to define some terms.  You seem to be using different definitions that I would.

Quote

But, nonetheless, the reward is there.

You say "reward".  I say "result".  While interchangeable and often synonymous in casual speech, they have important difference when having semantic discussions as people usually get into.

Edited by Carborendum
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You have no proof of anything you're saying, only a belief.

You're saying that as if I'm somehow deficient because of that.  Do you have proof otherwise?

Understand that the OP (which I was responding to) was entirely an argument about characterization, not literal reality.  So, I responded with a different characterization of the same things.  And she had no "proof" of any of her characterization either. Just her opinion to the point I wouldn't even call it a belief (but... semantics).

Ok, just saw this:

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

While I may have misinterpreted, it felt like he was so sure of what he was saying. Usually people will admit to not knowing for sure.

I'm not claiming the sure word of prophecy on this.  I am just often amazed at how some people make such rash decisions based not on reality, but on perspective or characterizations.  I was trying to offer a different perspective/characterization of the three degrees of glory that would render quite a different decision and attitude.

And I certainly do believe my interpretation to be perfectly "acceptable" given the revealed word of God that we have.

Her idea that "I can't enjoy the CK while even one person is in a lower kingdom" is akin to saying "just because one person jumps off a cliff, I must jump off the cliff as well."  What kind of sense does that make?

Edited by Carborendum
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, changed said:

Joseph Smith was a man.  Jesus was the only one who was more than a man, who was perfect, whose words could be trusted.

The original apostles - Thomas doubted, Peter denied, none of them could stay awake - they were constantly wrong, constantly being corrected - I suppose those currently called to "authority" are similar to the original. 

Changed, you are conflating too many things under one banner. Peter denied, but then was filled with the Holy Spirit and never failed him again; to the point of being crucified upside down because he felt unworthy to be killed in the same manner as the Christ. Thomas doubted and wanted to see and touch the wounds himself - yet, then served faithfully thereafter. The frailties of the human body are manifold, but that does not negate the ability to a human to have a testimony such that he is willing to lay down his life for his brother or his God. 

These are all different that not teaching the truth. Paul corrected Peter in his teaching - those called of God learn truth like all of us, but they are called to be special witnesses that Jesus is the Christ and to administrate the Kingdom of God on earth. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, changed said:

So you believe everyone in the CK will be exactly the same?  hmmm...

No, but I believe they will find joy and purpose in living a life where loving God and loving each other are their entire focus. 

Quote

I do think that most people agree that giving and recieving love is a good thing, most people love those in their families - most people do not live alone by choice.  Again, not a "small flock" - most people in the world hold very similar values and beliefs when it comes to what brings happiness and joy.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.  My own experience has shown me that that's not true.

Quote

Do people here think most people are not interested in being with their children, their parents, their families?  that only a few few people - only a little flock - would want this?

I don't think it's a matter of wanting that, it's a matter of wanting it more than you want other things.  I have a family member right now who only lives a few hours from grandkids that she hasn't seen in a couple of years.  She sends cards at birthdays but she never calls them or tries to communicate in any other way.  She's a good woman who loves her family but spending time with them isn't a priority for her.  Her husband lives less than 45 minutes from his grandkids and I don't think they have ever been to his home.  Last I heard it had been over 5 years since they had seen each other and he was fine with it.   

And judging from the posts that I often seen on mommy groups lamenting family that never wants to do anything together or visit she and he are not at all unique in that perspective.

Quote

It takes two to tango... I can't aford that? - red flag there are other problems going on at home.  ... mom and dad appear to be split apart - broken family?  and sitting with a bunch of perfect kids from perfect families talking about how wonderful families are is going to help him?  

It seems really weird to suggest that not being able to afford $650 for a kid to spend a couple of days at a church camp is a red flag. What do you think it's a red flag of?  The speaker couldn't afford it either.  What red flags are you assigning to him? 

The bolded part seems like wild assumptions.

Quote

The kid was not evil, and would have probably enjoyed EFY too if he came from a stable, loving family.  

This is a really odd thing to assume.  You have absolutely no idea what kind of a family he came from, right?   

 

Edited by bluebell
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, changed said:

Jesus words come to us through our conscience - the light of Christ, which is given to us all.  No one needs to rely on any arms of flesh, we only need to rely on our own conscience.

Just curious, do you really believe that?   I ask because that is a uniquely Latter-day Saint teaching, revealed through the prophet Joseph Smith ("the arm of flesh").  It is not a belief that you would have without a prophet.  So, in holding that belief (and probably most other beliefs you have), you have in some sense relied on mortal men/women for your beliefs.   In fact, I don't know of any other Christian faith who professes to believe in such a light which is endowed upon the consciences of all people, so I am surprised to hear you profess belief in the "light of Christ".

To make my point, can you think of a moral/spiritual/religious belief that you hold, and which you believe are from Jesus, that did not first originate from the mouth of another mortal man - that was not taught to you through writings, lesson, lecture, example, etc?  If not, then how can you say that all we need is our conscience when virtually all of your beliefs that you hold most sacred have been taught to you by other mortal men/women?  

My point is that our conscience is essential, I agree, but it primarily works to affirm or deny the teachings of other men.  Prophets are the primary source of revelation for the world.  There are true prophets and false prophets.  Our conscience (light of Christ) works to help us distinguish between the two.  The two work in concert together and are indispensable.  We all rely on the arm of flesh, but ultimately we should only trust our conscience in confirming their words or not. 

 

 

Edited by pogi
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
14 hours ago, changed said:

Do people here think most people are not interested in being with their children, their parents, their families?  that only a few few people - only a little flock - would want this?

Changed, I'm very concerned about you.  You're letting your depression overcome you far too much.

Speaking simply in earthly terms, if you had a child that committed suicide, you would be overcome with grief.  Correct?  You would know that was a horrible, horrible thing that happened.  You would mourn and be heartbroken.

Does that mean you would then commit suicide yourself because you could not bear to live without that child?  No.  We cope.  We heal.  We move on.  And we have faith that the Lord knows all and will heal all wounds.

What you're saying is that in spiritual terms, because a child committed spiritual suicide, you'd also commit spiritual suicide as well.  Stop it.  Speak with a counselor or something if you need to. But this line of thinking is not healthy.

@Carborendum, it is against board rules to psychoanalyze other posters or to assign mental illnesses to them.  It is also against board rules to make threads personal.   ~Mods.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Changed, I'm very concerned about you.  You're letting your depression overcome you far too much.

Speaking simply in earthly terms, if you had a child that committed suicide, you would be overcome with grief.  Correct?  You would know that was a horrible, horrible thing that happened.  You would mourn and be heartbroken.

Does that mean you would then commit suicide yourself because you could not bear to live without that child?  No.  We cope.  We heal.  We move on.  And we have faith that the Lord knows all and will heal all wounds.

What you're saying is that in spiritual terms, because a child committed spiritual suicide, you'd also commit spiritual suicide as well.  Stop it.  Speak with a counselor or something if you need to. But this line of thinking is not healthy.

Carborendum, I don't see you around here very much, you may not know Changed's backstory. Her attitude, I believe, stems from that. And IMO, she and her family have been harmed in the extreme in the church, therefore her thread and comments reflect this. 

Edited by Tacenda

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...